Saferight Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 The Russian apartment bombings Im not one to put much faith into conspiracy theories, but with the evidence that is available on this one its blatantly obvious who orchestrated them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Even if you aren't inclined to believe they were behind it, the cover up has got to leave you wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Saferight, Thanks for the vid! Thanks to you, I got to see the T-14 breakdown, see more T-14 footage, learn the claim that the T-14 turret design essentially had to do with Stealth, a notion I mentioned much earlier, but said I thought it was about appearance, not real capability. I got to watch Putin admit other nations helped Russia win the GPW, grimacing, particularly when mentioning the US. I had no idea Putin was so massively snubbed, so all I really knew, war pig/weapon buff that I am, was that Xi Jinping and his wife were up there with Putin. That I deemed significant, and it was, apparently to the tune of US $25 billion. Were I a Kremlinologist, I'd be poring over all the imagery establishing who on the Russian side was where and how far away from Putin. Why? Because it shows who's in what position when it comes to having power. I got to see some early BA series armored cars, complete with special armor side shields for the vulnerable water jackets on the Maxim MGs. Grog detail at its finest! The behavior of the people generally and the interviews, whether with the mother who'd sewn her own and son's GPW uniforms or the poem speaking America hating splenetic old woman, were most useful. I freely admit if I saw that sort of hardware, especially as a kid, I'd go nuts. But then, as a little boy I must've drawn hundreds, if not thousands of tanks, on every piece of paper except my textbooks. And lots of airstrikes, too. Call it foreshadowing of my career to come! I wish we'd gotten to see more equipment coming off from Red Square, but I got all excited over my Bumerang sighting at 11:08 and in full bloom (sadly, practically in the translation) at 11:09. That was the whole point of the VICE piece, right?! Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Hey LnL, not sure what those are meant to represent. Those were two separate messages. First one with me puzzled by your words about "doing time", and then saying that they can jail you, or kill you, in Russia, for political stuff. The second one is an example of yet another whitewashing of Ukraine in Western media, in this particular example, Porosh and his Army of Hatred, versus statements about removed postings from Mark himself. I wasn't expecting you personally to understand the situation, just throwing it out there (after seeing a joke about "taking sides" on one of the previous pages) for everyone to look at and take notes. Edited May 16, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Those were two separate messages. First one with me puzzled by your words about "doing time", and then saying that they can jail you, or kill you, in Russia, for political stuff. The second one is an example of yet another whitewashing of Ukraine in Western media, in this particular example, Porosh and his Army of Hatred, versus statements about removed postings from Mark himself. I wasn't expecting you personally to understand the situation, just throwing it out there (after seeing a joke about "taking sides" on one of the previous pages) for everyone to look at and take notes. Okie doke regarding my statement there were two different points. First was - typically I get responses when suggesting people protest the actions of their gov't as to why I am not protesting against mine. I figured to shorten that discussion. The second point was about political opposition and what one can expect. I was not jailed for simply waving a banner, signing a petition or trying to get a voting opposition. I did deserve what I got. Blame it on the stupidity of youth if you will, about as good as any excuse I have. As to Zuckerberg, I don't particularly trust his statements either. He has a vested interest in business and will do what he needs to do to expand it. He is not taking any kind of moral stand. Watch his behavior slobbering over business opportunities in China. Is there an organized program to try and have UKR folks censored, no idea. Is their (UKR folks) language and behavior in violation of Facebooks terms, no idea. Does Facebook apply those standards evenly, no idea. I have to admit, I hate facebook. Not for any political or business stance. I just hate the idea that people feel the need to tell every single little stupid thing they think or do to millions of people... and they lower the standard of what friendship is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VasFURY Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 @Saferight - thanks for the clarification! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VasFURY Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) @Sburke. Russian Apartment bombings - yes, you may have a point, but then what about when the US economy was tanking, and 9/11 happened? Its circumstances were also too dubious to completely dismiss that it was an inside job. America needed a war, and a war against "terrorism" is a very clever concept, because its not a war against a neighbour, or a nation, or a political system - its a war potentially against EVERY nation, and gives your country carte blanche to bring the might of its military to ANY country, that might harbour the perceived "threat of terrorism" (who determines where that threat lies? Your state analysts? Good job in Iraq). So, Expansionist Aggressive Culture? Me thinks so (i mean, a shedload of your countryfolk were whipped into a frenzy of retaliation against foreign threats, and the US military saw a surge of fresh and willing recruits. Next step, bringing democracy by force into areas of the world that never wanted it nor cannot work under it (middle east)? Me thinks so. Oh, and the DUMBEST politician I have ever seen gets elected for a SECOND TIME as president of the most powerful country in the West? Manipulation? Me thinks so. Its simple - whatever you are saying Russia MAY DO, in terms of its aggresive or expansionist policies, America already HAS done. Im not saying that Russia is right for doing what they are doing, but I am saying that you are wrong for labelling them Fascist for the reasons you described. The way the top few make decisions in our contries, are probably very similar. Just you guys have a much better propaganda machine that works well on maintaining and persuading your allies that its all a just cause (admittedly, you guys have been at it for far longer than anyone else, except maybe the British). Ultimately, it is your opinion, which you probably wont change - im not a very adept or persuasive or deeply informed arguer. Passionate - yes. Ive been passionate about Russia since waaay before Putin. To conclude, its just sad that by attaching the stigma of Fascism to Russia, it will prejudice you, as well as the readers who listen to and support your opinions (I for the most part really enjoy reading many of your other posts) - against the country and its good people even further. Edited May 16, 2015 by VasFURY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Okie doke regarding my statement there were two different points. First was - typically I get responses when suggesting people protest the actions of their gov't as to why I am not protesting against mine. I figured to shorten that discussion. The second point was about political opposition and what one can expect. I was not jailed for simply waving a banner, signing a petition or trying to get a voting opposition. I did deserve what I got. Blame it on the stupidity of youth if you will, about as good as any excuse I have. Yeah, suddenly, people have to be prosecuted for the actual crimes. A lot of folks have to be reminded of that, regularly. Especially those who think that committing crime against "bad people" is okay. As to Zuckerberg, I don't particularly trust his statements either. He has a vested interest in business and will do what he needs to do to expand it. He is not taking any kind of moral stand. Watch his behavior slobbering over business opportunities in China. Is there an organized program to try and have UKR folks censored, no idea. Is their (UKR folks) language and behavior in violation of Facebooks terms, no idea. Does Facebook apply those standards evenly, no idea. I have to admit, I hate facebook. Not for any political or business stance. I just hate the idea that people feel the need to tell every single little stupid thing they think or do to millions of people... and they lower the standard of what friendship is. This is where you need to know the language to get what's going on. I feel the same about Facebook, but, in short, what they did was a right thing to do. What I wanted to point out to the crowd here is that, while Russian media (rightly) gets blame that it's crazy, biased state controlled bunch of lies and propaganda, a lot of info BS, including such whitewashing, happens on the other side of the barricade, and I'm not even sure how many people are actually able to notice that in all its careful subtlety. Sometimes not even careful. I see serious amount of social engineering in the works. Consistent. Edited May 16, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbarbaric Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) it is really amusing to read this discussion. west vs east accusing for wrongdoings... all it really shows is how we are influenced by propaganda. no way of denying russia, or USSR for that matter, is an imperialistic power wanting to force its interests as soon as it was able to. the track record is just too long to be a coincidence. czechoslovakia, hungary, poland, afghanistan, cuba, korea... the list goes on... funny enough, the only guy who was able to push off the superpower (at least that i can recall atm) was Tito and Yugoslavia that refused to bend to Stalin's USSR and went on to develop it's own way of socialism. Sadly we know how that went in the end, or do we? the same goes for USA. Whole latin america, middle east, asia... there really is no difference between the two. and if you go and zoom in into the regions and regional powers you will see the same pattern of behaviour wherever you go. everyone trying to push their interests. usually just by diplomatic or economic pressure and ultimately force. only difference is that as you go to bigger scale reaching the global superpowers you will see the trail of armed conflicts longer and blodier simply because superpowers are able to do it more often without being held accounted. but make no mistake just any country would do it if given opportunity. that is just the nature of politics and power struggle from the dawn of men. what is perhaps worst is how we stick behind our countries and rally at the flag for "our cause" whole time being perfectly aware what it means but still finding excuses. Edited May 16, 2015 by mbarbaric 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VasFURY Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Well put mbarbaric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 @Sburke. Russian Apartment bombings - yes, you may have a point, but then what about when the US economy was tanking, and 9/11 happened? Its circumstances were also too dubious to completely dismiss that it was an inside job. America needed a war, and a war against "terrorism" is a very clever concept, because its not a war against a neighbour, or a nation, or a political system - its a war potentially against EVERY nation, and gives your country carte blanche to bring the might of its military to ANY country, that might harbour the perceived "threat of terrorism" (who determines where that threat lies? Your state analysts? Good job in Iraq). So, Expansionist Aggressive Culture? Me thinks so (i mean, a shedload of your countryfolk were whipped into a frenzy of retaliation against foreign threats, and the US military saw a surge of fresh and willing recruits. Next step, bringing democracy by force into areas of the world that never wanted it nor cannot work under it (middle east)? Me thinks so. Oh, and the DUMBEST politician I have ever seen gets elected for a SECOND TIME as president of the most powerful country in the West? Manipulation? Me thinks so. Its simple - whatever you are saying Russia MAY DO, in terms of its aggresive or expansionist policies, America already HAS done. Im not saying that Russia is right for doing what they are doing, but I am saying that you are wrong for labelling them Fascist for the reasons you described. The way the top few make decisions in our contries, are probably very similar. Just you guys have a much better propaganda machine that works well on maintaining and persuading your allies that its all a just cause (admittedly, you guys have been at it for far longer than anyone else, except maybe the British). Ultimately, it is your opinion, which you probably wont change - im not a very adept or persuasive or deeply informed arguer. Passionate - yes. Ive been passionate about Russia since waaay before Putin. To conclude, its just sad that by attaching the stigma of Fascism to Russia, it will prejudice you, as well as the readers who listen to and support your opinions (I for the most part really enjoy reading many of your other posts) - against the country and its good people even further. Really? You are suggesting there is any comparison at all between 9/11 and the Moscow bombings? There is no doubt who committed 9/11. The saddest thing about 9/11 is that our intelligence agencies were so poorly coordinated they couldn't stop it. That we do not hold Saudi Arabia more responsible as the promoter of wahhabism is another sad point. To say however the US gov't somehow cynically murdered 4,500 people to not pay attention to an economic crisis is just pretty absurd. And this isn't "America's war". The same folks, as have been previously pointed out, have hit the UK, Spain etc. So did America also somehow pull those off as well? With the Moscow bombings however the FSB is caught red handed planting a bomb, then somehow the bomb becomes flour and it is a training mission, then the gov't shuts down the investigation and Putin rides the wave of vengeance against Chechnya... hmm yeah they are even close to comparison.... Sheesh it is staggering sometimes to see the excuse machine that creates whatever it needs to in order to make what is going on in Russia just run of the mill normal stuff. Call it for what it is. Yes it is a nasty word and not one to be used lightly, but when it is appropriate then for damn sure it is time to say it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VasFURY Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense? Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same. And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 How about we get back on topic? I see this thread going to be closed soon if we continue down that road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense? The 911 truther crap had been so thoroughly debunked that anyone who still gives any credence to it either doesn't know much about it or is delusional. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 so I guess that in order to call the Russian gov't out for it's behavior and pronouncements one must be squeaky clean... okay that is one way of avoiding criticism. And no there is no, none, zilch absolutely no validity to all the 911 conspiracy crap and trying to use those ridiculous sites to somehow excuse what the FSB did just goes to prove the point that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone about Russia who is already inclined to excuse everything it's gov't is and what it is doing. The US gov't has never ever faked an action against it's own people killing hundreds for the political ambitions of one sector of that gov't (nor has Britain or Spain, which you seem to be ignoring). Nor for that matter to my knowledge has Russia done so prior to Putin. Even Hitler didn't try that. Burning down the Reichstag while nutty didn't actually kill anyone in the process. Heck it is even questionable whether the Nazis actually had anything to do with the fire rather than simply taking advantage of it. The Comintern head of Western Europe who was charged was actually acquitted in the trial. Nah the Moscow bombings put Putin's crowd into a league of their own. So let's have a parade to honor the people who gave so much to defeat fascism while the guy standing center stage on that podium is more than willing to kill his own people for political power. Sure that's okay everyone does it.. well maybe someone does... anyone? As to this constant need to see how the Russian gov't is promoting expansionism which somehow seems to be still questioned and how it relates to the parade - In the parade, the tribute to Crimea was not subtle. The first vehicle to enter the square behind row after row of tightly choreographed marching soldiers was an armored personnel carrier from a Black Sea Marines brigade, flying a large Crimean flag. Just how many examples do you need? If you can give me a number I can work towards that. Oh wait folks will deny the above and say, but that was Russian land.... Sudetenland... Anschluss..... yeah here we go again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Inside job nutters are nuts on any side of the fence, discussing either their own countrymen misfortune, or otherwise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense? Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same. And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves. the US govt may have shamelessly used 9/11 to further their own ends after the wsr. but to say the US gov.t had a hand or to say the FSB guys got caught and yours didnt is laughably silly and nonsense abyway. just lost a lot of respect for yohrintelligenc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 just lost a lot of respect for yohrintelligenc This. I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Pretty much any time someone brings up the 9-11 Truther community in a way that isn't "hey look at this veritable hive of idiots!" I have to question if they're intelligent to be living without proper adult supervision. Russian Apartment bombings - yes, you may have a point, but then what about when the US economy was tanking, and 9/11 happened? Its circumstances were also too dubious to completely dismiss that it was an inside job. America needed a war, and a war against "terrorism" is a very clever concept, because its not a war against a neighbour, or a nation, or a political system - its a war potentially against EVERY nation, and gives your country carte blanche to bring the might of its military to ANY country, that might harbour the perceived "threat of terrorism" (who determines where that threat lies? Your state analysts? Good job in Iraq). So, Expansionist Aggressive Culture? Me thinks so (i mean, a shedload of your countryfolk were whipped into a frenzy of retaliation against foreign threats, and the US military saw a surge of fresh and willing recruits. Next step, bringing democracy by force into areas of the world that never wanted it nor cannot work under it (middle east)? Me thinks so. Oh, and the DUMBEST politician I have ever seen gets elected for a SECOND TIME as president of the most powerful country in the West? Manipulation? Me thinks so. Like prior to this, unless you're being ultra sarcastic, and you should really clarify that shortly, I thought of you as "someone I might not agree with, but likely reasonably intelligent" and that's since migrated into "raving idiot." Errata: there really is no difference between the two. I found the essay I was looking for, so I'll let Mr Orwell reply. One has to remember this to see the Spanish war in its true perspective. When one thinks of the cruelty, squalor, and futility of War — and in this particular case of the intrigues, the persecutions, the lies and the misunderstandings — there is always the temptation to say: ‘One side is as bad as the other. I am neutral’. In practice, however, one cannot be neutral, and there is hardly such a thing as a war in which it makes no difference who wins. Nearly always one stands more or less for progress, the other side more or less for reaction I'm pretty clear on who represents progress in this mess. For those of you who are bored and fans of Orwell:http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/Spanish_War/english/esw_1 Edited May 16, 2015 by panzersaurkrautwerfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VasFURY Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Ok guys. I guess we will wait and see. Back to being on topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbarbaric Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 orwell is of course right in his observation but what he fails to address in that passage is "progress for who" and "reaction to what". if we accept USA (or USSR) stand for progress in general, someone has to pay the price for that progress. from one point, it is even worst when progress of superpowers is paid by people of countries far far far away. would be much more fair that USA (or USSR/Russia) pays for its progress by themselves. but they can't because what progress represents is actually expanding (or mantaining already achieved) boundaries of influence which by definition includes other nations. spreading democracy by bombs is by no means different from spreading communism with equal means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 if we accept USA (or USSR) stand for progress in general, someone has to pay the price for that progress. from one point, it is even worst when progress of superpowers is paid by people of countries far far far away. would be much more fair that USA (or USSR/Russia) pays for its progress by themselves. but they can't because what progress represents is actually expanding (or mantaining already achieved) boundaries of influence which by definition includes other nations. spreading democracy by bombs is by no means different from spreading communism with equal means. I think you need to study the foreign policy of the USSR and US a little closer before you can make straight up one is the same as the other claims. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 just lost a lot of respect for yohrintelligenc This. I think... He is typing from his phone i think. Ok guys. I guess we will wait and see. Back to being on topic. That' s a great idea. No one needs a perfectly good thread to get closed because of unsolvable political differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Apropos of the discussion of the Balkan conflict which seared the participants and peacekeepers alike, today I came across a well-reviewed book which may be of interest. It's called My War Gone By, I Miss It So, by Anthony Loyd. Perhaps one of you has read it? Getting back to the Victory Parade, I saw one of my brothers today, and we got to talking planes, which then led to tanks. Turns out he'd seen some footage of the VE Day "Arsenal of Democracy" Flyover in Washington DC, but practically nothing from Putin's extravaganza. I have since corrected that deficit, supplying the RT version and the short stirring distillation with the Red Alert theme music. Sent those things to him, two other brothers,two nephews and several friends, together with links to this and the Armata soon to be in service thread. By some mysterious turn of events, these very people all received notification of the CMBS release and the subsequent release of the CMBS Demo. E-crack purchase expected very soon from at least one of the notification recipients. Really digs modern, you see, and CMBS has more interesting toys and tech than CMSF, whose Demo he played and enjoyed, but didn't like the locale. Now, where is the next batch of juicy AFV pics, and has anyone managed to track down that upward looking tank radar I described? I must not be using the right keywords, for I've plowed through many pages on the Forums using the site: Google function. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreDay Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) so I guess that in order to call the Russian gov't out for it's behavior and pronouncements one must be squeaky clean... okay that is one way of avoiding criticism. And no there is no, none, zilch absolutely no validity to all the 911 conspiracy crap and trying to use those ridiculous sites to somehow excuse what the FSB did just goes to prove the point that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with anyone about Russia who is already inclined to excuse everything it's gov't is and what it is doing. The US gov't has never ever faked an action against it's own people killing hundreds for the political ambitions of one sector of that gov't (nor has Britain or Spain, which you seem to be ignoring). Nor for that matter to my knowledge has Russia done so prior to Putin. Even Hitler didn't try that. Burning down the Reichstag while nutty didn't actually kill anyone in the process. Heck it is even questionable whether the Nazis actually had anything to do with the fire rather than simply taking advantage of it. The Comintern head of Western Europe who was charged was actually acquitted in the trial. Nah the Moscow bombings put Putin's crowd into a league of their own. I am pretty sure that you are trolling here, but just out of curiosity - 9/11 and Russian bombings aside, can anyone think of an example of a definitive case involving any government bombing its own people in order to shift the blame on to their opponents? I can't think of a single good example...Anyone? Edited May 17, 2015 by DreDay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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