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VasFURY

Moscow Victory Day (70 Years) Parade

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Looks like this thread is rapidly swirling down the drain.  Perhaps best to shove a plug in.

 

Looks, gents, war is hell.  There is nothing glamorous about it.  There is nothing moral about it.  And it is nothing to celebrate. 

 

It is really easy to point fingers at the other side and decry them as murderous bastards, fascists, commie pinkos, the great satan... pick you favorite slur.   It changes nothing in the long run.  It doesn't bring back the dead. It doesn't comfort or heal the wounded, whether those wounds are physical or psychological.

 

It just leads to another cycle of violence.  Like the saying in Star Wars - anger leads to the dark side.

 

When I was in Bosnia in '93 as a Canadian peacekeeper, two Bosnia Serb soldiers came up to me at a checkpoint.  They were two brothers from Toronto, Canada.   I asked them why they were here in Serbian military uniforms.  I then heard a story about as they were growing up, they heard from their grandparents and their parents over and over about what the Croats did to the family in WW2 and stuff post war.  They were here to defend the motherland and to settle accounts with the Croatians for something that happened to the family nearly 50 years ago.  I don't get that - they were born in Canada (their family came to Canada post war) yet they felt that this was THEIR war to fight.

 

Anger and hatred lead them here.  Instilled by the anger and hatred of their parents, perpetrated by anger and hatred from their parents.  Fighting in a war not of their making, for a cause not their own, for a homeland they have never seen.  A cycle of violence nearly 50 years in the making.

 

I have seen some of that anger expressed here and I am reminded of that time talking with the two brothers.  And I am seeing the seeds of that tragedy here.

 

I was in a very dark place for a long time after my peacekeeping tour in '93.  Some would call it PTSD.  You can only see so much of genocide up close and in your face and a part of me inside died.  There was no moral high ground for either side,  All sides did stuff terrible things that are war crimes - the Bosnians, the Croatians and the Serbs.  Yes, the bulk of the ethnic cleansing was done by the Serbs but is no excuse for the Bosnians and the Croatians to do what they did.  I saw a beautiful country in ruins, shattered lifes, mounds of civilian dead, and a land with seeming madmen running around with guns seeming to want to re-fight WW2 or address the wrongs they suffered in that conflict..

 

Chains of the past.  So many people in the world are bound by those chains.  I see the ghosts of the past conflicts playing out in the conflicts of today.  There is the real tragedy.  We seemingly can't escape our past and we poison the well for our children so they are doomed to repeat our mistakes.

 

Anger leads to the dark side.  That is true.  I lived it grappling with my PTSD and the nightmares of seeing a country gone mad in Bosnia.  I wanted to kill every ethnic cleansing son of bitch with a gun.   It took a long time but I came to accept certain things.

 

I saved lots of civilians, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian but not enough for me.  I wanted to save all of them.  I couldn't and felt guilty for decades as a result.   War lesson 1:  In war people die, soldier and civilian alike,  War lesson 2:  You can't do anything to change lesson 1.  It took a long time for me to embrace that and that saved my sanity ultimately.

 

There is real evil in the world and real monsters.  The monsters look like us and talk to us but make no mistake, there are real monsters out there.  You only see them for what they are by what they do.  I want to Kill All The Monsters but the reality is, strike one down and another rises to take his place.  Nothing changes and we learn nothing from our history.  Hitler was struck down and Rwanda and Bosnia happened.  Deal with those and then it is Sudan. Or Cambodia.  Or Syria.  Or ISIS.  Or who ever the next Hilter wannabe is.   People who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.  

 

Chains of our past.  Everyone has this issue.   Do you allow the past to bind you and deny you a better future or do you let it go.

 

The chains of the experiences in Bosnia bound me and put me on a self destructive path to most likely a grim future.  Only by embracing what happened and learning to rise above it, to not allow the past to control my present so I can forge a new future did I finally find peace for my soul.  It was hard because the chains are thick and strong - memories, recollections and seeing stuff like the genocide in Bosnia playing out elsewhere in the world brings it all back.  But I broke free finally and the memories are not emotionally charged as they were in the past as a result.  No, the memories never go away.  But you can make peace with them and find a way to a sort of 'wholeness' again.

 

I have rambled on.  Partly to acknowledge my past and the role I played in it.   A affirmation that something in life tried to beat me down and I rose above it.

 

Partly to my brothers in arms from any side of the conflicts who are dealing the the imprint of what total war does to their soul and well being, that there is a way ahead.  Memories can become less emotionally charged and less painful. Memories do fade somewhat through time, working hard toward wholeness, and throwing off the shackles of the past and living for the future.  It is not a easy road or a fast road and not everyone can break their chains of the past but it can be done.

 

And finally, to the Croatian, Bosnian and Serb posters.  I see anger and pain in your words.  War is terrible and it will write things on your soul that will deny you a bright, happy future.  I know.  I was there.  I have lived it.   Acknowledge the past, regardless of how ugly or hurtful it is.  Realize the past is the past and is not your future unless you allow it.  Do not do what a Serb family that moved to Toronto did and poison their two sons with what happened long ago in a land now far away that resulted in them involving themselves in killing other people, perhaps being killed themselves and exposing themselves to the horrors of war, for a cause not that shouldn't been theirs to fight and a war they shouldn't have been involved in, all over something that happened nearly 50 years ago.   Don't deny the future of your children or grandchildren by binding them in YOUR chains of the past and dooming them to fight in some future war because the last war had a negative impact on your family.

 

War is death, destruction, shattered lives and futures denied.  Don't glorify it and not rationalize it.  Your a damn fool otherwise.

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I saved lots of civilians, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian but not enough for me.  I wanted to save all of them.  I couldn't and felt guilty for decades as a result.  

 

Thank you.

 

There is real evil in the world and real monsters.  The monsters look like us and talk to us but make no mistake, there are real monsters out there.  You only see them for what they are by what they do.  I want to Kill All The Monsters but the reality is, strike one down and another rises to take his place.  Nothing changes and we learn nothing from our history.

 

 Indeed, those monsters will always be there.  The rest of us make things better by resisting them. Some more then others.  If we give up then we only let the monsters win.

 

Do not do what a Serb family that moved to Toronto did and poison their two sons with what happened long ago in a land now far away that resulted in them involving themselves in killing other people, perhaps being killed themselves and exposing themselves to the horrors of war, for a cause not that shouldn't been theirs to fight and a war they shouldn't have been involved in, all over something that happened nearly 50 years ago.   Don't deny the future of your children or grandchildren by binding them in YOUR chains of the past and dooming them to fight in some future war because the last war had a negative impact on your family.

 

War is death, destruction, shattered lives and futures denied.  Don't glorify it and not rationalize it.  Your a damn fool otherwise.

 

With tears +1

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I get what point you are trying to make comparted to Russian but you are being very liberal with your examples and it is not supporting your point IMBTW good to know you are paying taxes as our defence budget will be going up....

Holien, I have some arguments to make to your points, to back up why I have said what Ive said, but ultimately I think we both produced our opinions, on which others can base their own opinions and judgements. Otherwise we will just go back and forth - ultimately, yes some of my examples were liberal (I wouldnt say "quite", anyone having a deeper look into what I have written will find but there is evidence to be found out there on the net to support my words), but I was trying to get a point across, that for all the mocking that is done on the forum of the Russian state, ultimately it does a pretty decent job of reasonably looking after the majority of its citizens (apart from the factor of alienation from the whole world).

And of course I pay taxes! This country gave me an education, a good livelyhood, and opportunity to travel the world freely (British passport is great for visa's, as opposed to Russian one!) and to see how people live elsewhere. For the most part, life is pretty decent here, despite all my rants and complaints above - better than most other places that I have visited (aside from Panama! I would freakin love to live in Panama City!) So, yes I complain, but ultimately i am blessed to be a citizen of the UK, having migrated here with my parents, who had nothing to their name 20 years ago. But I still do love my homeland and the people there.

And regarding pussy riots church performance, sure, they can do that here in a church. What if they did that in a mosque though? And you had pressure on the government from all the Islamic groups, who actually represent what, 18 or so percent of the British population? You think that would have gone unpunished? Russians are very VERY serious about their church. There was a HUGE outcry in Russia after they did what they did. Im not a particularly devout church goer, but knowing peoples mentality back home, even I thought what they did was very crass and stupid, and offensive to a significant degree.

Ok, im going to shut up now and re-read Moria's post.

Edited by VasFURY

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i think theres no way i could convince< people who think that intervention was a good thing ,  > that intervention was not a good thing. 

 

i ll say again

 

0% first hand experience

0% of understanding of the  conflict

 

Sources: wikipedia,Cnn,fox ,bbc (poor sources)

 

and to some extent some of  you are biased since you live in america or Nato countries (that region) .i am starting to think that serbians are not that bad after this thread.  i thought you people from west were more reasonable.seems like you are just like serbs, just didnt have a war to experience.. and war to make you more violent/nationalistic (unless you count overseas counter insurgency and meddling in other countries affairs)

 

i will refrain from responding on this thread since its pointless, whatever i say you will just say: ' serbian ability to kill'  + ' intervention was needed' + ' some personal stories you heard' + ' cnn news broadcasts' 

repeat again and again, baseless 'stories' and you mix  it with 'logic' 

 

you opened my eyes a little bit

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And you had pressure on the government from all the Islamic groups, who actually represent what, 18 or so percent of the British population? .

I was wrong, not 18%, just checked and its closer to 8% (I thought there were more, taking into account the Asian and African Population in the UK)

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i think theres no way i could convince< people who think that intervention was a good thing ,  > that intervention was not a good thing. 

 

i ll say again

 

0% first hand experience

0% of understanding of the  conflict

 

Sources: wikipedia,Cnn,fox ,bbc (poor sources)

 

and to some extent some of  you are biased since you live in america or Nato countries (that region) .i am starting to think that serbians are not that bad after this thread.  i thought you people from west were more reasonable.seems like you are just like serbs, just didnt have a war to experience.. and war to make you more violent/nationalistic (unless you count overseas counter insurgency and meddling in other countries affairs)

 

i will refrain from responding on this thread since its pointless, whatever i say you will just say: ' serbian ability to kill'  + ' intervention was needed' + ' some personal stories you heard' + ' cnn news broadcasts' 

repeat again and again, baseless 'stories' and you mix  it with 'logic' 

 

you opened my eyes a little bit

 

After the past few responses, especially from Moria, how can you say something like this?

 

Its just unbelievable, I think you are the ignorant one.

Edited by Raptorx7

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@LaCroix,

Come on bro, dont shy away from the posting. Those guys are expressing their opinion on how THEY see the conflict. You express on how YOU see it. Ultimately there is no right or wrong. Just because they dont agree with what you say, doesnt mean you shouldnt say it. If you hadnt inotially posted what you posted, and if the others hadn't responded, I personally would have never realised the severity of that situation (call me ignorant or whatever). Granted, you are not here to satisfy my curiosity, but it was indeed interesting to read the discussion stemming from your posts.

Edited by VasFURY

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BlackMoria,

 

Your #226 is profoundly moving and obviously heartfelt. Its soul-searing clarity and self-evident deeply personal truth speak to me in ways very little has. Thank you for these wise words born of long, terrible experiences--and their aftermath! 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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War is death, destruction, shattered lives and futures denied.  Don't glorify it and not rationalize it.  Your a damn fool otherwise.

 

Sadly there's folks who still believe violence is a means to an end.  War is always universally terrible.  Just sometimes it's marginally less so than the consequences.  

 

I always took George Orwell's essay looking back on the Spanish Civil War (I forget the title, it's not Homage to Catalonia, it's just a little essay reflecting on conflict, war, and propaganda) to heart in that once the struggle has started you're effectively supporting one side, or the other.  Even refusal to become involved becomes defacto support for one side or the other.

 

While I'm not advocating conflict as the first and primary means, and having scooped up my fair share of body parts, I hold intervention to conclude a conflict, or prevent further loss of civilian life to be moral.  It will never be perfect/easy/straight forward, but the stacks of skulls in Rwanda, the ditches of Srebrenica, and the drifting ashes of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe all tell a story of what happens when we declare war too terrible to ponder.

 

War is terrible.  War is hell.  Having merely been a passing visitor to it I will say if I never saw it again I would be quite content.  But too often we've looked at the price of intervention and asked "what have we done?" while ignoring the question of "what if we did not?"

 

And looking at Kosovo, and looking at the men who led Serbia and their prior contributions to the butcher's bill, and looking at numbers not made up by apologists, it's clear it was not going to end especially well unless you were Serbian and liked ear necklaces.  Was it perfect?  Hell no.  Was the fate of thousands of Serbs in Kosovo justified?  No a thousand times over.  But they're lesser evils compared to the last time the world sat back and let it rain artillery on children, or watched folks herded off like cattle to fill ditches in Bosnia.  

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Steve, you want to go back? Okay. First division between Serbia and Croatia is the fact that our feudal lords decided to accept Christianity from the Byzantines and their feudal lords decided they will take western Catholicism. Second one came when both of our nations were under (some would say) occupation from in our case Ottoman Empire and in their case Austria-Hungary. It influenced heavily our world views and goals. We were the first to become free and form our nation. Then came WW1 and in the aftermath we took most of the Austria-Hungary territory, including Croatia for us. First bad move by our side. Second one came when a parlaiment member from Croatian party was assassinated in Parliament. Our king decided to impose dictatorship and lost his life as a result of his choices. That led to chaos in the state and that's when the friction from Croatia started to show. They wanted to align themselves with the Third Reich, but we weren't sure if it was the right move. It resulted with declaration of war on 6th of April and bombardment which saw the destruction of our National Library (many of the medieval manuscripts and artefacts were destroyed). Our armies were utterly crushed (we had like 4 tanks in the whole army). Croatia became independent, got their chunk of territory to govern and thats when the Ustase terror started. In the same time Cetniks appeared. Both of these movements were nationalistic and ready to kill everything that moves. I must also mention Jasenovac, a concentration camp under managment of Croatia. Then came Tito and his merry band of communists. You all know how that went. After the war every nationalistic movement was suppressed. Some were outright killed, some were exiled. It worked for a while and then came the constitution from 1974. It destroyed the federation and its layer of governing. Add to that exiled people sending money to the growing nationalist movements and you got yourself states declaring independence. To say that only Milosevic made evil calls is wrong. Everyone contributed to the start of that conflict. They also needed a way to take the money away from the state budget, to make money smuggling and so on. We, the commoners, got out from that conflict half-starved and traumatised whilst our leadership was fat, smiling and with loads of money on various accounts, including the ones on Cyprus. Sorry for the long post and history lesson but it needed to be said.

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I must also add that I hold no negative emotions toward Croats, Bosnaks, Albanians- anyone involved in the conflict. We were all f***ed by our leadership. I would like to meet people from those countries and share experiences of war and post-war period.

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@Lacroix

 

Maybe trying really reading my earlier post.  Like really read it.    I didn't 'bare my soul' for the amusement of the pundits following this thread.  I acknowledge your pain because I can see it and have seen it over and over through the years until I want to scream.   War did something terrible to your country, your family and your friends and, yes ... to you as well.

 

**** happens and the innocent pay the heaviest price for it.   Deal with it because there is nothing that you can or will do that will ever set that right.  

 

Now really listen to me.  Because anger has a way of eating a person alive.  I KNOW.        LET.  IT.  GO!    Let the anger go.  Posting about injustices on a thread will never convince those who believe their point of view is right, will get sympathy from those who feel your pain and anger and will never truly be understood by those who weren't there or had to suffer the aftermath of those events.   But it will change nothing.  No wrongs will be righted.  And the anger will remain  and you have gone nowhere like a gerbil in a wheel.  

 

I made a choice to get off my wheel because it was eating me up.  Being angry a long time isn't really living.   That is a choice you can make as well.    

Edited by BlackMoria

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To say that only Milosevic made evil calls is wrong.

It is possible I missed it but I do not re call a single poster making a claim like that. Many posts indicate that if some one did say something like that it would not receive much support.

And a history lessons is always good as long as you don't use it for future ill.  @BlackMoria said it about as good as you can:

 

Realize the past is the past and is not your future unless you allow it.  Do not do what a Serb family that moved to Toronto did and poison their two sons with what happened long ago in a land now far away that resulted in them involving themselves in killing other people, perhaps being killed themselves and exposing themselves to the horrors of war, for a cause not that shouldn't been theirs to fight and a war they shouldn't have been involved in, all over something that happened nearly 50 years ago.   Don't deny the future of your children or grandchildren by binding them in YOUR chains of the past and dooming them to fight in some future war because the last war had a negative impact on your family.

 

War is death, destruction, shattered lives and futures denied.  Don't glorify it and not rationalize it.  Your a damn fool otherwise.

 

 

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Many here don't know about the that deep division between our people. And many yet don't know of the anti-war and anti-Milosevic movement. I am proud to be the son of the parents that voted against Milosevic every single time. While Milosevic and his cronies terrorized former Yugoslavia, they also terrorized the many that stood up against the madness. Riot police was really eager to use tear gas, water cannons and the baton.

Black Moria- thank you for your posts. I wouldn't say that we are angry and want to go to the rampage and kill every son-of-a-b***h that wronged "us", but we are frustrated by the fact that we are the "bad guys". Thats how i see majority of the responses. A whole nation-bad.

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Many here don't know about the that deep division between our people. And many yet don't know of the anti-war and anti-Milosevic movement. I am proud to be the son of the parents that voted against Milosevic every single time. While Milosevic and his cronies terrorized former Yugoslavia, they also terrorized the many that stood up against the madness. Riot police was really eager to use tear gas, water cannons and the baton.

Black Moria- thank you for your posts. I wouldn't say that we are angry and want to go to the rampage and kill every son-of-a-b***h that wronged "us", but we are frustrated by the fact that we are the "bad guys". Thats how i see majority of the responses. A whole nation-bad.

 

There were 'bad guys' but they were mostly at the leadership levels.  The rank and file soldiers simply tried to get though the war alive and acted to protect their friends, their family and their town or village.  A number crossed the line and went from 'defender' to murderer.  That happened a lot.  The worst duty I had was 'documenting atrocities and war crimes' for the UN.  About as ghastly as it can get for me and a real low point in my life.

 

But take this as someone who was boots on the ground for that particular situation.  I don't broad brush the Serbian people as a nation of bloody thirsty murderers.  The leadership either condoned, ordered or ignored the killing done by troops of their country and in my opinion, they should go to the wall for that.  But the majority of Serbs or Croats or Bosnians didn't know what their leaders were allowing to happen at the time and why the long period of denial that took place.  Until the videos and other evidence started coming forward and the Serbs simply couldn't deny what happened.

 

Serbia is a nation of victims in my book.  As were the Croatians and the Bosnians. Victimized by the war and further victimized by the complicity of their leaders who carried out war crimes and lied to the very people they were to protect and serve.  There is a thin line between being a soldier and being a mass murderer.   That line was crossed too many damn times in that conflict but I blame the leadership and the soldiers who decided to cross that line - not the people of that nation nor the soldiers who conducted themselves honorably and 'chose' that was a line they would not cross.

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There were 'bad guys' but they were mostly at the leadership levels.  The rank and file soldiers simply tried to get though the war alive and acted to protect their friends, their family and their town or village.  A number crossed the line and went from 'defender' to murderer.  That happened a lot.  The worst duty I had was 'documenting atrocities and war crimes' for the UN.  About as ghastly as it can get for me and a real low point in my life.

 

But take this as someone who was boots on the ground for that particular situation.  I don't broad brush the Serbian people as a nation of bloody thirsty murderers.  The leadership either condoned, ordered or ignored the killing done by troops of their country and in my opinion, they should go to the wall for that.  But the majority of Serbs or Croats or Bosnians didn't know what their leaders were allowing to happen at the time and why the long period of denial that took place.  Until the videos and other evidence started coming forward and the Serbs simply couldn't deny what happened.

 

Serbia is a nation of victims in my book.  As were the Croatians and the Bosnians. Victimized by the war and further victimized by the complicity of their leaders who carried out war crimes and lied to the very people they were to protect and serve.  There is a thin line between being a soldier and being a mass murderer.   That line was crossed too many damn times in that conflict but I blame the leadership and the soldiers who decided to cross that line - not the people of that nation nor the soldiers who conducted themselves honorably and 'chose' that was a line they would not cross.

Thank you for this. I mean it.

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Hey LnL, not sure what those are meant to represent. It is apparently a complaint that Russia is systematically trying to silence Ukrainian voices on Facebook. It wouldn't surprise me, but true or not what has that got to do with what I said?

The fact of the matter is Putin's govt is systematically cracking down on opposition, promoting hate propaganda against select groups (gay community as an example) and promoting a militaristic expansionist aggressive culture. I won't dance around it, it is fascism period. If people in Germany had been willing to call out their own gov't in the 1930s perhaps we could have avoided a war. They didn't and so millions died How many will suffer before Russians are willing to call out their own gov't?

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...and promoting a militaristic expansionist aggressive culture.

Sburke - how do you see this?

Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how you understand this to be taking place? (The other points you listed, yes, I can see some of them taking place). But this one is a big one. I havent seen it in my visits to Russia. How do you see it?

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Saferight, was that video supposed to show promotion of militaristic expansionist aggressive culture? If yes, im sorry, I didnt see it. I already explained earlier in this thread the significance of the Victory Day parade to the Russian People - it was also said during this video - that its primary aim is to remember the fallen. Same parade has been happening even when the West wasnt as opposed to Russia as it is now.

The guy in the vid said that the Russians are wearing the same ribbons, as are worn by the separatists. He did not explain, that the symbol is a Ribbon of St. George, which has actually existed and been worn at similar parades Since about 2005 (the 60th anniversary), and it just so happens that it was the Separatists, who decided to adopt this as their symbol. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_of_Saint_George

The only anti-american words I can hear, are by old veterans, who grew up in the days of the Cold war, and who's blood drips with old Soviet propaganda, because they dont want to know or believe any other way. Oh, and Kim of course :-).

I think "Expansionist" and "Aggressive" are the key words that we need to see as being promoted by the State. Russians have been militaristic since generations ago, so thats nothing new.

Edited by VasFURY

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Sburke - how do you see this?

Not calling you out or anything, I just want to see how you understand this to be taking place? (The other points you listed, yes, I can see some of them taking place). But this one is a big one. I havent seen it in my visits to Russia. How do you see it?

Increase in aggressive air patrols including turning off transponders, nuclear threat against Denmark, activities in occupied areas of Moldavia, Georgia, Ukraine. Do you really think every country west of Russia is just wigged out and Russia is somehow just mis understood? Putin's moronic wolfpack biker buddies threatening to ride into Ukraine and fix the legacy of soviet occupation. You can try and dismiss the significance of any one item or disagree even but the sum of the parts paints a very vivid picture.

People can make all the cute little responses like huh? and act like all is normal, but I would bet your German or Italian citizen would have responded the same way in 1935 and would have been just as ridiculously blind to what is so painfully obvious.

The Russian opposition is in disarray and fear with many going into exile rather than face potential imprisonment or worse. Their biggest opposition figure was just assassinated right before the Kremlin. "Huh" is such a sorry response.

Putin's proxies just submitted their demands for the occupied areas of Ukraine and they are sadly laughable. They absolutely know Kiev can not agree to those terms so Russia through it's proxies has once again made it clear they have no intention of de-escalating.

Edited by sburke

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No, thats not under question - its clear that the State is doing everything you describe. Im asking about the promotion of expansionist aggressive culture to the public. Because, those bears that fly to the UK pretending they are British Airways, its not like the Russian state publicises this, saying: "Ah look how we keep the capitalists on their toes, soon we will conquer them all!"

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How do you think this is playing out and why do you think when the Russian economy is getting hammered by poor planning and bad decisions does Putin have such a  huge popularity rating?  There have also been major statements out of the gov't that have Belarus and Kazakhstan nervous about their relationship despite being part of Russia's trading partnership.  Problem is when you point out those statements, invariably they get dismissed in any one of a number of ways - "oh that guy is always like that, it is being misinterpreted, they just mean..."  lots of excuses, but when Belarus starts making public messages about defending it's national territory from Russia (I believe Steve posted a link previously) you really have to face the fact.  All of Russia's neighbors including it's supposed allies are nervous.  These are the statements about "protecting Russian nationals wherever they might live" that has been trumpeted from the Russian gov't.  You can't tell me you have not seen those statements as well right?  So what does it remind you of... hint Sudetenland... the Anschluss?  And this is one of the points where I think the term dictatorship is not appropriate.  Hitler was elected.  Granted the whole election process that got him in power was manipulated.  Putin was also elected and there are some interesting observations about the timing of the Moscow bombing campaign that occurred when he was being elected.

 

Just in case any one here is ignorant of the events, this is from wikipedia. 

 

The Russian apartment bombings were a series of explosions that hit four apartment blocks in the Russian cities of Buynaksk, Moscow and Volgodonsk in September 1999, killing 293 and injuring 651 people and spreading a wave of fear across the country. The bombings, together with the Dagestan War, led the country into the Second Chechen War.

The blasts hit Buynaksk on 4 September, Moscow on 9 September and 13 September and Volgodonsk on 16 September. A similar explosive device was found and defused in an apartment block in the Russian city of Ryazan on September 22.[1] The next day then-Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin praised the vigilance of the inhabitants of Ryazan and ordered the air bombing of Grozny, which marked the beginning of the Second Chechen War.[2] A few hours later, three FSB agents who had planted this device were arrested by the local police. The incident was declared to be a training exercise. These events led to allegations that the bombings were a "false flag" attack perpetrated by the FSB in order to legitimize the resumption of military activities in Chechnya and bring Vladimir Putin to power.[3][4]

Parliament member Yuri Shchekochikhin filed two motions for a parliamentary investigation of the events, but the motions were rejected by the Russian Duma in March 2000. An independent[5] public commission to investigate the bombings was chaired by Duma deputy Sergei Kovalev. The commission was rendered ineffective because of government refusal to respond to its inquiries.[6][7] Two key members of the Kovalev Commission, Sergei Yushenkov and Yuri Shchekochikhin have since died in apparent assassinations.[8][9] The Commission's lawyer Mikhail Trepashkin was arrested.[10]

 

 

Reichstag fire comes to mind.  No I think there is far more than enough freely available information for anyone who wants to know about what Putin represents.  However if one is already poised to not want to believe it, it doesn't matter how much evidence there is.  The thing is he IS popular.  Enormously so.  Why would you think that is?  What is he delivering to your average Russian that would make him popular if the economy is tanking, political freedoms are being restrained, Russian is becoming an international pariah.  The parallels are way too frequent to be coincidental.  So let's just call it for what it is.  Fascism.

 

That is my problem with the parade.  It is a celebration and recognition of the price paid, the enormous price, to defeat fascism...and it is being hosted by Europe's new fascist threat.  Shame.

Edited by sburke

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Saferight, was that video supposed to show promotion of militaristic expansionist aggressive culture? If yes, im sorry, I didnt see it. 

 

I posted that video because it merely deals with the topic, not to argue against or for the parade.... 

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