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Some interesting topics have been started about how information moves through the C2 chain both vertically (up & down the chain of command) and horizontally (directly from one team to another team).  As a result I did some experimenting with C2 & information sharing.  Below are the results and several chronological screen shots from the experiment.  If anyone can offer a correction or additional information please do. 

 

Additional useful information on the topic:

Game manual 3.01 page 62 Command & Control.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/113787-can-somebody-answer-some-questions-on-information-sharing/

 

The distance information can be shared vertically (chain of command).

Voice C2: Up to six action spots, approximately 48 meters.

Close Visual (eyeball) C2: Up to 12 action spots, approximately 96 meters.

Distant Visual C2: As far as the unit’s line of sight.  (In the experiment I had units sharing information vertically with Distant Visual at 40 action spots, approximately 480 meters before I stopped.)

Radio C2: Entire map.  (In the WWII titles If a unit is moving on foot they will drop out of radio C2 during the movement)

 

The distance information can be shared horizontally (directly between teams).

Up to four action spots, approximately 32 meters. (Sometimes a team had to move to within 3 action spots)

 

Can information be shared horizontally between teams from different battalions?

Yes

 

Can information be shared between to different HQs that do not have a common higher HQ?

Vertically: No (With no common higher HQ there is no bridge for the information to pass over) 

Horizontally: Yes

 

I used two different US battalions on a custom made map for the experiment.  The 4th US Tank Battalion on the west (left) side of the map and the 1st US Infantry Battalion on the east (right) side.  A high ridgeline divided the two battalions.  At the beginning of the experiment no units of the 4th Battalion were in C2 with units of the 1st Battalion.  An immobilized German Marder II was used as the OpFor unit to be spotted and reported.  

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-1_zpssiz6v4mc.j

 

The scouts move out to locate the German Marder II.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-2_zpsb5fawjrm.j

 

At 03:58:43 the scouts obtain a sound contact for the Marder II but they are out of C2.  

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-3_zpsnhtqdoqa.j

 

1st Platoon is selected but shows no icon for the Marder II.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-4_zps7o1f6gcb.j

 

Additional to follow.

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The scouts move to report to 1st Platoon HQ which still has no contact icon for the Marder II.

  CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-7_zpscoxxukev.j

 

The scouts emerged from the woods in close visual (the eyeball) C2 range of 1st Platoon HQ and reported the Marder II location.  When selected 1st Plt. HQ now shows a contact icon for the Marder. 

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-8_zpspyiq6nsk.j

 

Bravo HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II. 

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-9_zpsj50h4p6f.j

 

1st Platoon radios Bravo Company with the report of the Marder.  Bravo Co. HQ shows an icon 7 seconds after 1st Plt. received the report. (That was fast)  CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-10_zps5b8yzycg.

 

Additional to follow.

 

 

 

 

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1st Battalion HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-11_zpsql3fadbg.

 

Bravo Co. radios 1st Battalion with the report of the Marder.  1st Battalion HQ shows an icon 6 seconds after Bravo Co. received the report. (Again, fast)

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-12_zpscxbjiq1b.

 

4th Battalion HQ is not yet aware of the Marder II.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-13_zpshdwjgynx.

 

Nine minutes later 4th Battalion received no reports of the Marder. With no common higher HQ between 1st Inf. and 4th Tank Battalion the 4th never did receive any chain of command (Vertical) reports about the Marder.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-14_zpsin9tedht.

 

Bravo Co. / 1st Inf. sent their XO Team over to 4th Battalion’s A/O to report.  

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-15_zps00s4xl8c.

 

Bravo Co. / 1st Inf. XO came to within close visual C2 range (12 action spots) and reported the Marder & some friendly unit dispositions to the 4th Battalion team (Horizontal information sharing).  The 4th Bn. team is selected and displays the new contact icons.  Also note that the 4th Bn. team is in distant visual contact with HQ.

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-16_zpshhadxzis.

 

In a minute or two the 4th Bn. team would have reported the Marder up the 4th Bn. chain (vertical) using distant visual C2. However the contact icon for the Marder was fading badly due to age of the Marder contact information.  So I moved a radio jeep up.  The 4th Bn. Team shared the information about the Marder with the radio jeep.  The radio jeep passed the information to the recon HQ and then from there to the 4th Bn. HQ.  

CTTC%20Bn%20to%20Bn%20C2-17_zpsq3sljuik.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Nice work. That gives XO teams another use: inter-formation comms. Keep 1Bttn XO with 2Bttn Actual, and 2Bttn XO with 1Bttn Actual. They might need a radio jeep to sit in...

 

It's surprising that the Battalion HQs don't have either direct or indirect (via an abstracted Brigade HQ) info sharing, even at a glacial pace.

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Keep 1Bttn XO with 2Bttn Actual, and 2Bttn XO with 1Bttn Actual. They might need a radio jeep to sit in...

 

This is a great idea and I think is the solution when you are commanding different units that don't share a common higher HQ.  I was surprised how quickly the HQ teams used the radios to transmit the spot report.  Cool game.   

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Wow, nice intriguing thread and nice testing.  C2 in CM has always been a grey area for me to understand.  This concept of "spot and report back" via establishment of C2 is new to me.  I had no idea that there was even C2 horizontally between two battalions that don't even share the same on map "boss" HQ.  So how exactly do you know that in the example you have give, that the 2nC unit of 1st Bn you sent over to 4th Bn "was communicating" to 4th Bn the report of the Marder?  There is no C2 indicator except with it's own HQ boss right?

 

I also never knew C2 ceased (at least with infantry units) when they moved?!!?  I thought I would have  picked up on this a long time ago.

 

PS:  I had actually started doing some C2 tests some time ago because I realised that, for any situation, C2 may or may not exist depending on whether the game is played in "Iron" mode or "Elite" mode at least (ie.  In Iron mode C2 is more likely not to exist).  This is something that I have definitely not seen really mentioned as common knowledge.  The implications of this literally mean that the same scenario played in Iron mode may not play out the same in Elite mode.  A scenario played in Iron mode will typically mean more units will be out of C2 than if played in Elite mode (or lower).

 

May be worth asking what Skill level you are testing at.

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Good analysis MOS!

 

And your game must be on Iron setting if your having to spot friendlies as well.

 

I use this technique esp. for the British who tend to have their amour in separate parent formations.

 

An example from my recent battle ; I had a Coy of Panzer Grenadiers with a battery of on map Grilles  both with separate off map higher HQ's. I put both their respective HQ's into Kubelwagons and kept them within visual contact of each other. Then when some of my infantry spotted an enemy the spotting location was passed after some minutes to the Grilles(vertically up to their HQ then horizontally to Grille's HQ then vertically down to battery HQ).

 

Another thing I found was that infantry HQ's could remain in C2 even when moving in a vehicle but not on foot.

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This is really informative - nicely done.  Information move along quite quickly too. Can you point us to the key for your icon mod, please? I know you said the Marder icon was a sound contact form the scouts but as I kept reading I forgot and thought (from the pcitures) you were passing hard contact information up the chain - which made no sense.  I now think that the icon was confusing me.  What does a '?' icon look like for the Marder and what does a fully spotted Marder look like?

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I can see this being the basis of a set of C2 rules for especially dedicated players... this is something I've been thinking about for a while now.. just hadn't thought of an easy way to implement it.

 

Examples:

  • No orders allowed to take advantage of a contact until the HQ for that formation is aware of it... if a platoon leader is aware of the enemy contact, then it can react to it and be given orders to that end (only for squads and teams in command)... but a neighboring platoon not aware, could not.  
  • A Company HQ aware of the contact could order his Platoons and support units with that information in mind, but only if they are in command.

Imagine a tank platoon moving into an ambush without spotting the enemy units lying in wait, while that enemy might be spotted by a friendly unit not in the same C2 link... they would have to keep driving on their original orders (whatever is set for them or planned) until they become aware of the enemy.

 

It would only effect reaction type orders... no more of me running my non-radio equipped kubels up the flanks to scout as I did in my Eye of the Elefant game versus GAJ.   ;)  Anything they discover could not be acted on until it was relayed to an HQ unit.

 

Hmmm... I'll have to see what I can come up with.  Any takers on playing an AAR game in this fashion?  It would take the game to a new level and would be best played in Iron mode.

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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with that information in mind

That leaves a lot to interpretation. It probably goes without saying that these rules would rely on the honor system for enforcement.

 

But if you did play this way there are other rules you could add. No calling in of indirect fire by spotters out of C2 (it's ridiculous that the game even allows this, IMO). No orders given using knowledge gained by sound triangulation or of seeing walls/hedges disappear when unspotted vehicles run over them. I'm sure there are others.

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Absolutely agree Vanir.  No more roaming the battlefield listening for mortar sounds etc.  It would have to be two players who trust each other and have the same goals.. namely as realistic a portrayal of battle as is possible. Maybe The_Capt will be interested in playing this way.. I'll shoot him a line.

 

Players would really have to keep a close eye on their C2 links and plan for the use of runners etc. to relay information.  I expect games would really unfold a lot slower as well.

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That sounds like a really good way to play.  One thing that would be required was to have a plan - and record it in some way. The example you gave of the units stumbling into an ambush is a good one. A player playing this way would have to have a list of units and what their assignment is so that you can consider the orders of each group based on what they are supposed to be doing and what they know about the battlefield. 

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Outstanding experiment, MOS -- alot of information to digest here. And I'm with Lt. Bull in admitting that I'm learning alot about C2 when studying this thread!

 

And Bil: I suspect that adopting your suggested mode of play would be a fantastic watch for us AAR-viewers AND a brutal exercise in discipline for the actual players. Yes, Ian -- some kind of pre-determined force plan would need to be recorded and adhered to until the proper information is gathered through the proper C2 pathways. Yes, games played this way would unfold at a considerably slower -- and I suspect much more suspenseful -- pace.

 

I'm almost embarrassed to admit how carefully I've roamed the virtual battlefield in previous games, searching for the spot where those invisible mortars are most likely to be firing at me...I'm glad to know I'm not the only one doing this!!

 

And MOS: I assume you're conducting your experiment in Iron mode?

 

Great stuff everyone...

Edited by PanzerMiller

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That sounds like a really good way to play.  One thing that would be required was to have a plan - and record it in some way. The example you gave of the units stumbling into an ambush is a good one. A player playing this way would have to have a list of units and what their assignment is so that you can consider the orders of each group based on what they are supposed to be doing and what they know about the battlefield. 

 

Well I don't think an entire plan needs to be laid out and adhered too... what I envision is perhaps giving a unit or formation a task, for example, "Bound to treeline A" that unit would then be stuck within the confines of that task and could not exercise individual initiative in order to react to an enemy contact unless that contact has been identified by the unit.  Though I do agree that an overall intent, at least in phases should be written down and maintained until enemy contacts allow a reaction.

 

That would keep the process relatively simple and doable I think.  But I do think maintaining a log of orders and spelling out intent for each unit or formation (as required) would be important and is why I suggested an AAR game as that would help keep the players from straying and would give them a place to maintain an orders log or matrix of some sort.

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Imagine a tank platoon moving into an ambush without spotting the enemy units lying in wait, while that enemy might be spotted by a friendly unit not in the same C2 link... they would have to keep driving on their original orders (whatever is set for them or planned) until they become aware of the enemy.

 

Yes, that would be an amazing thing to simulate.

 

Reminds me of the Band of Brothers episode during Market Garden ("Replacements"?) when Easy Coy identifies the Tiger(Jagdpanther?) lying in ambush next to a farmhouse and sends a runner back to the approaching British armored column to alert them. The lead tank commander, not seeing the German tank, replies with something like "Well, boy -- I can't fire on him if I can't bloody well see him, now can I??!!" As I'm sure you remember, he continues to blunder forward, sees the tank too late, and quickly burns.

 

Talk about two friendly units in the same C2 link!!

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Well I don't think an entire plan needs to be laid out and adhered too... what I envision is perhaps giving a unit or formation a task, for example, "Bound to treeline A"

 

That's all I was thinking was needed, just something to remind your self what everyone is supposed to be doing.

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I'm really surprised information can be shared at a distance of at least 480 metres without a radio..... I always assumed I had to run the scouts back to the platoon to report on findings.

 

But if I read the test correct, they can report at any distance, as long as they have visual contact with the platoon leader?

Edited by Bulletpoint

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<Snip>  So how exactly do you know that in the example you have give, that the 2nC unit of 1st Bn you sent over to 4th Bn "was communicating" to 4th Bn the report of the Marder?  There is no C2 indicator except with it's own HQ boss right?  <Snip>

 

May be worth asking what Skill level you are testing at.

 

Hey Lt.,

 

I forgot to mention earlier that the experiment was done on Iron skill level.  Which is almost identical to Elite skill level.  The below link has an entire thread with screenshots on the topic.

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/119218-skill-level-iron/

 

There is no C2 indicator used for horizontal information sharing.  Those indicators (the eyeball etc.) are only for vertical C2.  The 1st Bn. XO moved to within horizontal information sharing distance (Up to four action spots) of the 4th Battalion unit.  Soon after, the icon for the Marder was visible to the 4th Bn. unit when the 4th Battalion unit was clicked on demonstrating the 4th Battalion received the information.

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<Snip> I put both their respective HQ's into Kubelwagons and kept them within visual contact of each other. Then when some of my infantry spotted an enemy the spotting location was passed after some minutes to the Grilles(vertically up to their HQ then horizontally to Grille's HQ then vertically down to battery HQ). <Snip>

 

Another thing I found was that infantry HQ's could remain in C2 even when moving in a vehicle but not on foot.

I am happy to see you found the same results with the information sharing.  Makes me feel more confident in my own findings. Speaking of radio C2, while moving on foot, I had the below screenshots from an older test. 

 

Units in Combat Mission's World War II titles drop out of radio C2 while moving on foot.  But not in vehicles as Kuderian pointed out.

No%20Radio%20C2%20While%20Moving_zpsx0yg

 

 

Units in CMBS maintain radio C2 while moving.

Modern%20US%20Moving%20with%20C2_zpskx2d

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