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Just read the pdf, interesting reading, thanks George.

Any intent to convert your great 'panzer count' and Blowtorch battles to CMRT?

thanks - it's an interesting action and not without it's own controversy and debate.

 

Re the Blowtorch and panzer Count scenarios - nope no plans at the moment I'm afraid. If it was going to happen I'd wait until the appropriate module came out rather than try to 'bend' the current timeframe of CMRT to another earlier or later timeframe. Never say never though ;)

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been playing through this one, German vs AI, excellent armor v. armor scenario. lot's of tension and action!

 

love the map, big detailed, lot's of rolling, folding terrain, lot's of room to maneuver and tactical options.

 

force size is just right.

 

nice to see the Tiger in its natural element. It could be deadly in the right circumstances.   B)

Edited by Sgt Joch
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Hi Sgt Joch

Cheers for the feedback - glad you enjoyed it :) It's an interesting time in the Tiger;s history as the Soviets have tanks that can face up to it, so in effect it's ascendency (in the east) is on the wane. Still used well it's still deadly. You read Guderian's comments about Tiger crews vs JS-II? He was pretty scathing of their over confidence (based on the thick armour of the Tiger) and their often lack of respect for basic tactical principles as they'd gotten so used to being able to move about the open battlefield with some degree of impunity. This ended up in them losing more than a few to shots from Soviet JS-IIs.

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I am 12 turns in now and - so far - there have only been minor setbacks. 1 Tiger lost for 9 T-34s and 2 Stalin tanks. Those Stalin tanks are really tough nuts to crack. At first i tried sniping them, trusting in the superior marksmanship of my elite crews, but although my guys scored hits quickly, it took about 5-7 hits to disable each of the 2 dead Stalins. Right now the remaining Stalins are pushing towards the center of the map and i am racing them to arrive first because i think my best chance to kill them without loosing too many Tigers is by setting up an ambush. But it is a risky plan - i am using the village that runs from SW to SE (what is it called again? Milankova?) as concealment for one of my Tiger groups as Avenue of Approach although i dont know if i got all of the T-34 that were in the village. There could be a lone survivor who could try to get the Hero of the Soviet Union medal! Currently the scenario is very exciting, i cant wait to see if my plan to ambush the Stalins works. Let' s see what happens next, i will report back then.

 

Also - on a side note - i think there might be a little error in the Briefing, or maybe a misunderstanding on my part. You are talking about a "rollbahn". What do you mean by that? I associate the term "Rollbahn" with an airport.

 

So, i just finished this scenario. My plan to intercept the Soviet push towards the center worked, 3 addtional IS-2s were destroyed in the process. At about 20-25 turns in, some of the remaining IS-2s tried ot attack my Tigers in the center in a pincer maneuver by flanking them from the north and east - but they had no chance. The russians didnt surrender and i had to click the turn button util the end. I got a Tactical Victory, 2 Tigers, 2 Stugs and 12 KIA/WIA lost on my side, the Russians lost 20 tanks and 80 KIA/WIA. None of the historical figures died, but some of the unkown soldiers were not so lucky.

 

It was a fun scenario and rather fast paced. It was nice to have big slugging match between two tanks forces without having to bother with commanding infantry. I was repeatedly amazed by how much beating the IS-2 can take.

 

Here' s screenshot i like of Carius hunting T-34s in the Malinova:

 

Tigers_in_the_village.jpg

Edited by agusto
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Hi Augusto

Just picked up you posted this in the 'Der Ring' thread but assume you meant this one:

 

"I am a slow player, i watch every turn probably 20 times from 20 different angles, and if something cool happens, i cant spend up to half an hour just reviewing that particular scene again and again and again  :D.

 

I am 12 turns in now and - so far - there have only been minor setbacks. 1 Tiger lost for 9 T-34s and 2 Stalin tanks. Those Stalin tanks are really tough nuts to crack. At first i tried sniping them, trusting in the superior marksmanship of my elite crews, but although my guys scored hits quickly, it took about 5-7 hits to disable each of the 2 dead Stalins. Right now the remaining Stalins are pushing towards the center of the map and i am racing them to arrive first because i think my best chance to kill them without loosing too many Tigers is by setting up an ambush. But it is a risky plan - i am using the village that runs from SW to SE (what is it called again? Milankova?) as concealment for one of my Tiger groups as Avenue of Approach although i dont know if i got all of the T-34 that were in the village. There could be a lone survivor who could try to get the Hero of the Soviet Union medal! Currently the scenario is very exciting, i cant wait to see if my plan to ambush the Stalins works. Let' s see what happens next, i will report back then.

 

Also - on a side note - i think there might be a little error in the Briefing, or maybe a misunderstanding on my part. You are talking about a "rollbahn". What do you mean by that? I associate the term "Rollbahn" with an airport."

 

I used 'Rollbahn' as Carius refers to the main road as the 'Rollbahn'.I've seen it used in a lot of contemporary accounts to describe a main road used as a supply route etc.

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So, i just finished this scenario. My plan to intercept the Soviet push towards the center worked, 3 addtional IS-2s were destroyed in the process. At about 20-25 turns in, some of the remaining IS-2s tried ot attack my Tigers in the center in a pincer maneuver by flanking them from the north and east - but they had no chance. The russians didnt surrender and i had to click the turn button util the end. I got a Tactical Victory, 2 Tigers, 2 Stugs and 12 KIA/WIA lost on my side, the Russians lost 20 tanks and 80 KIA/WIA. None of the historical figures died, but some of the unkown soldiers were not so lucky.

 

It was a fun scenario and rather fast paced. It was nice to have big slugging match between two tanks forces without having to bother with commanding infantry. I was repeatedly amazed by how much beating the IS-2 can take.

 

Here' s screenshot i like of Carius hunting T-34s in the Malinova:

 

Tigers_in_the_village.jpg

Thanks for the update :)

 

Good effort in this. I guess the 'unknown' soldiers are a bit like 'red shirts' in Star Trek - you just know when they beam down to a planet the red shirt ain't coming back! 

 

Thanks again for the playthrough and taking the time to post your comments. Really appreciated ta :)

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I used 'Rollbahn' as Carius refers to the main road as the 'Rollbahn'.I've seen it used in a lot of contemporary accounts to describe a main road used as a supply route etc.

 

Hmm alright, then Rollbahn may be some sort specific military vocabulary. Another possibility would be that the general meaning of the word has changed during the past 70 years.

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"I am a slow player, i watch every turn probably 20 times from 20 different angles, and if something cool happens, i cant spend up to half an hour just reviewing that particular scene again and again and again  :D.

 

 

 

LOL...that is me as well.  Half the fun of the game is the playback aspect of it IMHO.

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Hmm alright, then Rollbahn may be some sort specific military vocabulary. Another possibility would be that the general meaning of the word has changed during the past 70 years.

 

Explanation from Duden:

  1. (Flugwesen) Taxiway
  2. (Militär) (besonders im Zweiten Weltkrieg an der Ostfront [provisorisch angelegte]) befestigte Fahrbahn, Piste für den Nachschub -> main road, supply route
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  • 2 weeks later...

For those of you who have found the JS-IIs a challenge this report from a contemporary German account might be some consolation:

 

The September 1944 issue of the Nachrichtenblatt der Panzertruppen included a report from a Tiger-Kompanie that had knocked out numerous Josef Stalin tanks in a short period:

 
The Tiger Kompanie was ordered to throw out the enemy who penetrated into a wood, and then continue to advance. About 12:15 hours, together with an Infanterie-Batallion the Tiger Kompanie started to attack. The thick forest caused extremely poor visibility (50 meters), and a narrow trail forced the Tiger-Kompanie to advance in a single row. The Russian infantry fled their positions as soon as the Tigers appeared. The anti-tank guns, which were pulled forward into position by the enemy within three-quarters of an hour after entering the woods, were quickly destroyed in spite of the difficulty of seeing the targets. Some of the anti-tank guns were destroyed by hits and some were rolled over. Numerous undamaged anti-tank guns fell into our hands.
 
After the lead Zug of the Tiger Kompanie advanced 2 kilometers through the forest, the Zug leader suddenly noticed knocked-down trees and saw a large muzzle-break (Josef Stalin) directly in front of him. He immediately gave the fire command: "Panzergranate! Cupola sight! Fire!" At the same time he was hit twice by 4.5 cm anti-tank gun shells that robbed him of his sight. In the interim, a second Tiger of the Zug driving through the woods pulled up on line with the Zug leader's Tiger. In spite of poor visibility, the Zug leader started the firefight at a range of 35 meters. In response, the Josef Stalin tank pulled back behind a small hill. In the meantime, the second Tiger had taken the lead and fired three shot at the enemy tank. When the round was fired, the Tiger itself was hit by a 12.2 cm shell on the front below the radio operator's section. Apparently this armor-piercing shell didn't penetrate through because the Tiger was standing at an angle from the target. The enemy tank was knocked out of action by a shot which penetrated the gun. A second Josef Stalin tank attempted to cover the first as it pulled back. During a short firefight, one of these two Tigers hit the second tank under the gun. This round penetrated, immediately setting the enemy tank on fire. The rate of fire of the Josef Stalin tanks was comparatively slow.
 
The Kompanie commander made the following observations that were derived from their experience in fighting Josef Stalin tanks:
 
When a Tiger appears, most Josef Stalin tanks turn away and attempt to avoid a firefight.
In many cases, the Josef Stalin tanks let themselves engage in a firefight only at long range (over 2000 meters) and also only when they themselves are in favorable positions on the edge of a wood, village, or ridgeline.
 
The enemy crews lean toward evacuating their tank immediately after the first shot is fired at them.
 
In all cases the Russian strived to prevent a Josef Stalin tank from falling into our hands and with all means available attempted to tow the tank away or to blow it up.
 
The Josef Stalin can also be knocked out, even if a penetration of the frontal armor can't be achieved at long range. (A different Tiger-Abteilung reported that the front of a Josef Stalin tank can be penetrated by a Tiger only at ranges less than 500 meters.)
 
An attempt should be made to gain the flank or the rear of the Josef Stalin tank and destroy it with concentrated fire.
 
In addition, a firefight with Josef Stalin tanks should not be undertaken in less than Zug strength. Employment of single Tigers means their loss.
 
It has been proven to be useful, after the first hits are registered, to blind the Josef Stalin by firing Sprenggranaten (high explosive shells).
 
Remarks by the Generalinpekteur der Panzertruppen (Heinz Guderian):
 
These experiences are in accordance with those of other Tiger units and are correct.
 
In regard to point 4 - It would be desirable for the opponent to have observed the same attempt by all of our Tiger crews. "An undestroyed Tiger may never fall into enemy hands!" This principle must be achieved by every crew member by exemplary operational readiness.
 
With regard to points 5 and 6 - At a time when there are 12.2 cm tank guns and 5.7 cm anti-tank guns on the Eastern Front, just like 9.2 anti-tank/anti-aircraft guns on the Western Front and in Italy, the Tiger can no longer disregard the tactical principles that apply to the other types of Panzers. Also, just like other Panzers, a few Tigers can't drive up on a ridgeline to observe the terrain. In just such a situation, three Tigers received direct hits and were destroyed by 12.2 cm shells, resulting in all but two of the crew members being killed. The principles of Panzer tactics - that Panzers should only cross a ridgeline together, rapidly (leaf-frogging by bounds) and under covering fire, or else the Panzers must drive around the height - were definitely not unknown in this Tiger-Abteilung . Statements like "thick fur", "impregnable", and the "security" of the crews of the Tigers, which have become established phrases by other units and also partially within the Panzertruppe , must be wiped out and debunked. Instead, it is especially important for Tiger units to pay direct attention to the general combat principles applicable for tank-versus-tank combat.
 
In regard to Point 7 - This statement is correct; however, three Tigers should not flee from five Josef Stalin tanks only because they can't start the firefight at full Zug strength. Cases will also occur which an entire Zug isn't always available. Many times tank-versus-tank combat will be decided, not by the number of tanks, but much more by superior tactics.
 
In regard to Point 8 - In connection with this it may be stated that the Josef Stalin tanks not only can be penetrated from the flanks and rear by Tigers and Panthers but also by the Pz.Kpfw.IV and the Sturmgeschütze.
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  • 2 weeks later...
Tackled this one last night.  Very enjoyable scenario and one I look forward to replaying.  If you are sick of playing claustrophobic games of cat & mouse in the bocage country of Normandy, come out east where the tanks are big and the engagement ranges are measured in kilometers!
 
SPOILER ALERT
 
 
 
/////////////////////
 
 
 
////////////////////
 
 
 
///////////////////
 
 
My approach was similar to Holien's.  Broadly:
 
- Carius and Kerscher moving along the southern map edge and entering the village on the main road over the bridge.
 
- Two Tigers moving at speed along the road through the forest to cover the secondary road and Rogachyevka village.
 
- The remaining four Tigers sought high ground outside the forest with lengthy LOS to the edge of Malinava.
 
One of the things that suprised me given the length of the scenario and the amount of forces involved is how quickly the action ramped up and the day was decided.
 
The high ground Tigers gained spots on Soviet tanks in the village (ranges ~ 1-1.4km) and began engaging before Carius and Kerscher crossed the heavy bridge.  The T-35/85 manuevered to face the threat and managed several ineffectual hits on the Panzers but were steadily reduced by long range fire.
 
Meanwhile, the two Tigers that moved through the forest emerged as the stars of the day.  A pack of IS-2, intent on advancing to Malinava, barrelled down the secondary road.  The Soviets were trying to move, distracted by spots gained on the high ground Tigers, and all the while coming under under flanking fire (ranges ~ .9-1km) by the forest pair of Tigers.  The result was disarray and carnage but also one victory. As mutual spots resolved between the high ground Tigers and the onrushing IS-2 (ranges ~ 1.5-1.7km), the pair of Tigers closer to the IS-2 turned to face Rogachyevka while the other pair continued to watch Malinava.  The Soviet heavies were knocked out one after another but one of the final two survivors (if I recall correctly) managed to hit one of the Malinova facing Tigers and set it ablaze before it was silenced.
 
A more humiliating loss followed...  Investigating partial armor contacts to their east after crossing the bridge, Carius and Kerscher hunted around either side of the southernmost farm complex.  Carius achieved a full contact on a T-34/85 only ~ 225m distant!  But the cover armor arc I had placed (trying to be clever)...  tragically... unbelievably...  did not encompass the threat.  The Tiger honored its orders and was summarily knocked out by the Soviet tank's first blast.  Carius was out of the fight before firing a shot!  Kerscher soon avenged the loss by first dispatching Carius' bane, then hunting forward, and finally backtracking in reaction to a partial armor contact in the vicinity of the boggy stream which led to two more burning T-34/85.
 
This bitter pill was somewhat offset by the exploits of the Stugs.  I honestly wasn't sure what to do with the them, but my first instinct was to get them to covered ground with respect to the IS-2s.  Once I was reasonably certain that the IS-2 were fully accounted for, I started to move the Stugs along the western map edge hoping to eventually turn east and link up with Kerchner whom was now picking his way slowly NNE along the main road in Malinava.  
 
Four Stugs proceeded while three hung back slightly and oriented towards the northern edge of Malinava.  Several partial armor contacts had persisted in this area throughout the scenario and soon enough a T-34/85 emerged from the farmstead.  Initially, a single Stug had LOS and was able to take several ranging shots (~ 600-650m) before the T-34/85 reacted.  The Soviet tank advanced and shrugged off several hits before a second Stug joined in and knocked it out.  The third Stug moved forward about 200m as a second T-34/85 emerged followed closely by a third.  T-34 No. 2 was quickly destroyed while No. 3 was battered with multiple hits and withdrew behind cover.  During this sequence only a single enemy shot scored a blow on the advanced Stug but this was to little effect.  The trailing Stugs then moved to join the advanced Stug in positions 400-450m from the edge of the farmstead.  
 
Now I wondered about resuming the movements of the four Stugs closer to Malinava as they had been holding in place during the farmstead action but, before I could form any plans, the final T-34/85 burst from the farmstead in an act of battle lust and/or pure folly and made a beeline towards the positions of the trailing Stug trio.  The bark of the Stugs' KwK 40 rang out and the battle was over.
 
Final tally was 21 enemy tanks destroyed at the cost of 2 Tigers leading to a German Tactical Victory (Iron mode).  As mentioned, I felt the single most valuable element was the pair of Tigers advancing through the forest to gain flanking fire on the IS-2s (accumulating six of the KOs) as they advanced through Rogachyevka; the result almost felt like a cheat code!  The IS-2s could never gain any traction and were all destroyed before they got anywhere near Malinava.  Even so, I still lost a precious Tiger to a IS-2 at 1.5km+ which goes to show how thin the margin of error is.  (Nevermind the embarassing Carius episode...)
 
I'll echo the observations of others in stating how amazing the real life episode was with Carius and Kerscher managing to handle the Soviet forces by themselves (with uncertain contributions by the Stugs.)  The Germans have a fair chance in this one with the 8 Tigers, but with TWO!?  Yikes...
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Cheers for the excellent AAR Migo. Great read and interesting to read how you tackled this. It's worth noting there are three very distinct AI plans in this scenario. So what works in one play through might not work in another ;-)

It sounds like you went into this with a sound plan. Your Tiger being KO’d by a JS-II does highlight how much luck can play a part in this tank vs tank combat. These JS-IIs just have to land one hit on a Tiger…

It also highlights how incredibly lucky Carius and Kerscher were. For a challenge it's worth trying it with your main manoeuvre element being Carius and Kerscher with the others staying back in support. It highlights how skilled, and very, very lucky these two Tigers were…

Thanks very much for your detailed and entertaining AAR. Good luck on your next play through.

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Also noted the issue with the covered arc.  One would think that in RL Carius would have disobeyed the arc and fired at that short range Soviet which was an "existential" threat.

 

I thought CM2 allowed for troops to disobey covered arcs when necessary.

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@Erwin, certainly I was hoping he would disobey the arc!  I understand that units will override arcs in certain circumstances but I'm fuzzy as to what conditions make an override more likely. 

 

But it's interesting; how should experience levels should factor into the equation?  Presumably, less experienced units would be more likely to disregard cover arcs.  So it could be that Carius' experience worked against him in this case.  I guess it's only clear in hindsight whether honoring a cover arc was the best decision.   

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  • 2 weeks later...

Presumably, less experienced units would be more likely to disregard cover arcs. So it could be that Carius' experience worked against him in this case.

It's actually the Motivation rating rather than experience. Also, occasionally, whether or not the unit is in C2.

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Another GREAT classic !

 

Thanks very much for this one.

 

This scenario really shows how the Tiger I was getting obsolete by this phase of the War in the East.

Excellent :) Thanks again mate. Aye the Tiger was starting to feel it's age when it came up against the newer Soviet armour. It's worth checking out Guderian's admonishments to Tiger crews who'd become too cocky when facing vanilla T34s...

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SOME SPOILERS!

 

Fun and somewhat different battle as its don’t have any infantry at all only tanks. Beautiful maps with lots of possibilities.

 

Played it H2H and although we liked the battle we had some problems with the objectives and the briefing. For me as the Russian side its was some confusion in how much of the Malinova village we had to hold to get points and if there were any point in trying to attack towards Daugavpils as is stated in the briefing (land objective?). It also stated in the mission that it’s a soviet defence and a German attack although both sides seems to have a little of both (often not a bad idea but here it was somewhat vague). My German playing friend said the German briefing stated that the Stug was of paramount importance to save although the Tigers themselves were worth a lot points too. So for the Germans it was a little difficult to know what he was supposed to do as there was no exit zone for the Stugs either, making them fight the IS-2 or hide during the battle offered no easy answers. I won as the Reds by knocking out the last Tiger an hour in the game. Only two Stugs were then still alive when my friend surrendered.

 

:) In the beginning I managed to knock out Carius with a first round from a regular IS-2 from 2000m.

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SOME SPOILERS! 

 

Fun and somewhat different battle as its don’t have any infantry at all only tanks. Beautiful maps with lots of possibilities.

 

Played it H2H and although we liked the battle we had some problems with the objectives and the briefing. For me as the Russian side its was some confusion in how much of the Malinova village we had to hold to get points and if there were any point in trying to attack towards Daugavpils as is stated in the briefing (land objective?). It also stated in the mission that it’s a soviet defence and a German attack although both sides seems to have a little of both (often not a bad idea but here it was somewhat vague). My German playing friend said the German briefing stated that the Stug was of paramount importance to save although the Tigers themselves were worth a lot points too. So for the Germans it was a little difficult to know what he was supposed to do as there was no exit zone for the Stugs either, making them fight the IS-2 or hide during the battle offered no easy answers. I won as the Reds by knocking out the last Tiger an hour in the game. Only two Stugs were then still alive when my friend surrendered.

 

:) In the beginning I managed to knock out Carius with a first round from a regular IS-2 from 2000m.

Hi Big Boss

Thanks for the comments and feedback.

 

In RL the Soviet had temporarily halted to regroup (they'd just made contact and beaten off an attack by the Stugs), They, the Soviets were in turn ambushed by Carius' unit, who were then supported by the Stugs.

 

Now trying to create that in game terms is tough. EXIT zones screw up all the points scoring unless ALL units texit. Original versions of the game had this but it did not work out points wise. Yes both sides will do attacking and defending but it's not a meeting engagement in the true sense as both sides have an idea where some units from the other side are, and at some point one side or the other will either be attacking or defending or doing both!

 

TBH what I was aiming for was to recreate the uncertainty felt by both commanders in this action. Hence in reality both sides are fighting to survive whilst either defending or attacking. it's not neat but I was loathe to create a tidy and neat scoring system. I know players like everything been crystal clear but the RL in this engagement was it was not. Carius bumped a Soviet tank unit and attacks. he, in turn is attacked by their mates trying to save their pals who are being taken apart. The Stugs see an opportunity and a/ take a wee bit of revenge b/ try to get out of dige intact.

 

The excerpt from the Soviet brief is as follows:

 

The Soviet player gets points for KOing any enemy tank or assault gun units that enter your area of operations up to a maximum of 3350. So to win you have to destroy as many German AFVs as possible whilst ensuring you keep your casualties low.

 

Whilst the German is:

 

German player gets points for:

DESTROYING Russian armour up to a maximum of 3350 points, whilst keeping their own Tiger casualties to an absolute minimum.

Look after the assault gun battery (ensuring they don’t lose any more assault guns).

 

To my mind that makes it clear what either side has to do to win? It does force the player to make choices. Mind the major part of this action was undertaken by just two Tigers, with some limited follow on support from the others and some support from the Stugs. Still Carius and Kerscher took apart the Soviet unit on their own pretty much. If the German player wants a real challenge it's worth trying that approach out ;)

 

Pleased you enjoyed it though amd liked the map. The map is based on the RL scene of the action using period Soviet and German 1:25000 maps and 1:50000.

Edited by George MC
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MINOR SPOILERS

Thanks for the comment George MC. I know the mission wasn’t primarily suited for H2H play and we really like that you still made it possibly with briefings and all. I my self appreciate the Fog of War and uncertainties that must have been in these battles IRL. But as the game is designed if a unit is just a few meters from an objective zone it doesn’t count. But that is small complaints as knowing the game limitations we still love it and the amount of work that you and other mission designers put down on your free time.

 

Look after the assault gun battery (ensuring they don’t lose any more assault guns).” This could mean that you can’t lose ONE more tank, or SOME to get any points at all. That makes for a hard decision regarding their use in the battle. I think when you read real field orders during the stress and confusion of war maybe that was as clear it could get ;) .

 

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MINOR SPOILERS

Thanks for the comment George MC. I know the mission wasn’t primarily suited for H2H play and we really like that you still made it possibly with briefings and all. I my self appreciate the Fog of War and uncertainties that must have been in these battles IRL. But as the game is designed if a unit is just a few meters from an objective zone it doesn’t count. But that is small complaints as knowing the game limitations we still love it and the amount of work that you and other mission designers put down on your free time.

 

Look after the assault gun battery (ensuring they don’t lose any more assault guns).” This could mean that you can’t lose ONE more tank, or SOME to get any points at all. That makes for a hard decision regarding their use in the battle. I think when you read real field orders during the stress and confusion of war maybe that was as clear it could get ;) .

 

Hi Big Boss

Thanks again - aye it's always a challenge using unusual real world actions as a basis for a scenario.

 

Re the assault gun battery. He! That's deliberate - see explanation below

 

There is a temptation for the German player to use the assault guns aggressively and TBH that can upset the play balance. So i need a way of creating uncertainty such that the German player would only truly and fully commit them if and when all seemed lost.

From what i can make out from the RL accounts is they played a small part in the latter stages of he action, more support when it was clear the action was going the Germans way. By creating uncertainty (in the German players mind) with the value of the Stugs I'd hoped the German player would think long and hard before using them.

 

I appreciate your thanks about scenario design and the work that goes into them. It's also great (from my POV) to read about players' experiences and thoughts on a scenario.

 

Cheery!

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  • 2 months later...

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