Holien Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 OK so I have been playing Die Letzte Hoffnung and I have hit a Problem where I think I am being shoirt changed on Panthers and MKIV's going missing from 1st scenario where I lost none in that scenario. I have now seen quite a ferw different threads where other strange things have happened for people. Loss of AT guns that they expected to be there. I have a feeling (yet to be proved) that older campaigns created with earlier engines are in effect broken and this really affects the longevity of CMBN and the other titles if true. I have just given up on Die Letzte Hoffnung until I get to bottom of it as it is a wonderful campaign but I hate to waste time if it is truly broken? Here are other threads where people think things are broken... http://community.battlefront.com/topic/115286-campaign-engel-bug-after-30-install/ http://community.battlefront.com/topic/108388-the-scottish-corridor-a-amazing-job/page-5 The Scottish Corridor Campaign is just too good to be thrown away like this if there is an issue. Possible explanation from Myles One of the few unfortunate side effects of BF upgrading CMBN to stay up-to-date with newer CM releases is that some of the older scenarios and campaigns that were created under the 1.0 engine are now out-of-date especially as to OOBs. There have been changes to OOBs that have resulted in some older scenarios/campaigns now missing vehicles/equipment or having what appears to be bugged chains-of-command (ex: changes made to the OOB for US armored infantry platoons will result in their having TWO platoon commanders in older scenarios.) Since all CM campaigns/scenarios are user-made, BF doesn't update them when it patches or upgrades the game. It leaves it to the individual designers to update them or not. And most have chosen not too. So, when one plays an older scenario/campaign with a fully updated/upgraded version of CMBN then one will occasionally stumble across OOB discrepancies or "bugs." Other threads it has been raised http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118086-missing-reinforcements-in-campaign/ http://community.battlefront.com/topic/98972-new-file-at-the-repository-campaign-die-letzte-hoffnung-2011-08-26/ No real solid answer and no proof it is broken... So I have asked Vanir who has an earlier version of the game loaded to see if he can get different results from a save game I have for DLH campaign and if I get some further time I will try and load up the different engines and see if I can prove any changes... Has anyone else seen this issue and is there anything that can be done about it? Is it really down to re-creating the campaigns in each new engine version? For me it seems to important not to keep these wonderful campaigns alive for new players of them... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Another aspect of this is when the TO adds something that changes a mission dynamic. The example I've seen is in the KG Engel campaign, where you're meant to rush a crew to a dismounted KT that's about to be overrun by the Amis. At some point the elements lining the field got given weapons that, while they can't kill the KT quickly, can immobilise it in short order, removing it entirely from potential recovery. I can't imagine this was the designed outcome when the game was first released. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Yes that would make a 3rd type of issue and I guess there is nothing that can be done about that. There seems to be three types of issues? 1. A possible bug where units that clearly arrive in 1st scenario are then not moved into second scenario. I.e. the Panthers and MKIV's. 2. A unit that used to be available is no longer available due to changes in unit structures i.e. TOE 3. Un intended effect when units get equipment not originally planned for by designer. I am really interested in trying to prove point one as that should work if a designer places units then they should carry through? Point 2 is nasty as a designer has to re-check everything when new engine / patch is released? Point 3 I guess happens even less but one to watch for.. I guess that scenarios / campaigns are not baked into frozen state and the code change can change the design? This I hope can be looked at as the life blood for the game is the playability of the scenarios and campaigns IMO as a player. I guess as a company having new engines and people move to new theatres and pay for new content is what is needed to keep company alive... So if old stuff gets broken it might encourage players to move to the new shiny toys... I am just slightly concerned that designers are burning out and we will lose classic Campaigns that really should still be open to people when they can get to them.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Excellent thread, Holien...thanks for putting this together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 So I have asked Vanir who has an earlier version of the game loaded to see if he can get different results from a save game I have for DLH campaign and if I get some further time I will try and load up the different engines and see if I can prove any changes... I tried, but as I suspected the version 2.12 of CMBN doesn't recognize the 3.11 save game file. I put it in the saved games folder but it doesn't show up in the in-game save game list. This has long been a quirk of the CM games. You can load a saved game from an older version but not a newer version. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delliejonut Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I've noticed missing ATGs in mission 3 of The Scottish Corridor. Could anyone load up the campaign in the editor and fix this, or would the designer have to do it? I'm not great with the editor myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I've noticed missing ATGs in mission 3 of The Scottish Corridor. Could anyone load up the campaign in the editor and fix this, or would the designer have to do it? I'm not great with the editor myself. Editing TOs in the editor is probably the easy bit But you'd have to get the campaign disassembler tool, pull the campaign apart, fix it and then recompile it. Then restart the play through, from mission 1 again, because you can't disassemble a campaign savegame, fix that and rebuild it in a playable state. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 I tried, but as I suspected the version 2.12 of CMBN doesn't recognize the 3.11 save game file. I put it in the saved games folder but it doesn't show up in the in-game save game list. This has long been a quirk of the CM games. You can load a saved game from an older version but not a newer version. Thanks I guess I should have guessed that would happen. OK I need to find some time to dig out old versions of game and load them and then try it to prove that the Panthers and MKIV's did used to get carried forward. Should not take too long now I have played scenario once already. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 Editing TOs in the editor is probably the easy bit But you'd have to get the campaign disassembler tool, pull the campaign apart, fix it and then recompile it. Then restart the play through, from mission 1 again, because you can't disassemble a campaign savegame, fix that and rebuild it in a playable state. Thanks for the description on how to do it... I will have to learn how to do that as I can not allow any of the great campaigns to be nerfed by engine upgrades. The effort that the designers put into it should live on and not die... I wonder if there is an easy way to know what is missing? I guess I need to re-open campaign in v1 engine alongside v3 to see if I can spot differences? No wonder designers do not want to go back to all that hard effort and try and work out what has changed... I wonder if Battlefront could be persuaded to change way Campaigns are baked so that once cooked they stay frozen (wrong metaphor..) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 Overall I think this is shocking and I am surprised more has not been said about it. I guess maybe the number of people still playing the older campaigns are not that many and so not seen as an issue? It is shame that people put time into playing a campaign and then find it is broken especially the larger ones... Imagine not having the 6pdrs to stave of the Tigers in a certain campaign... I remember that moment and the sheer joy of winning the scenario... Lost to other players? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 It's certainly an issue for people coming late to the game who will find that their campaigns simply don't work. I know it sounds like a ballache, but if the base-game-as-bought is being upgraded, I think it behooves BFC to make sure the content that comes with the package still functions. They understand the changes to TO they're making and should be able to adjust the campaign scenarios' TOs to compensate without much, if any complete playthrough being necessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinkin Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 HolienI too thank you for the post. A lot of work goes into campaigns and if true that they are sometimes impacted due to engine updating we need to know. I think even small OOB changes (omissions) can have a big impact on balance and playability. Has BF commented on the observations made? I am working on a campaign right now - as are others. Should we stop and wait tomake sure the designs will remain as intended?Kevin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Well I for one have not spent any time working with campaigns so I cannot comment on what is broken or not broken. But I will say that speculation that stuff is missing because BFC made changes to the TO&E would be 1) not as likely as you think and 2) totally unintentional and therefore be considered a bug. As a rule they do not make changes that break scenarios when they change the TO&E after the fact. If we can show that has happened we can log a bug. Also many changes actually will not effect a scenario. Most changes to TO&E have no effect on scenarios as the scenario knows what units it has. If a scenario designer *wants* the changes made in the TO&E reflected in their scenario they usually need to delete the formation in question buy it again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 1. A possible bug where units that clearly arrive in 1st scenario are then not moved into second scenario. I.e. the Panthers and MKIV's. Just keep in mind that the second scenario may or may not include any, some or all of the units from the first. The scenario designer can choose to give you totally different units in the next scenario. All I am saying is that just because unit Y that survived scenario 1 and is not in scenario 2 it is not automatically a bug. If you can show that in version 1.x or 2.x unit Y was there in both scenarios then that would be a bug. 2. A unit that used to be available is no longer available due to changes in unit structures i.e. TOE I believe that would be unintentional. If we have a documented example we can log it. 3. Un intended effect when units get equipment not originally planned for by designer. Yeah, that one is not so easy. Things like making MGs more effective had a similar kind of balance effecting change. I don't see much that can be done here and hopefully those effects would be small. I am really interested in trying to prove point one as that should work if a designer places units then they should carry through? Point 2 is nasty as a designer has to re-check everything when new engine / patch is released? Point 3 I guess happens even less but one to watch for.. Looking forward to seeing what you find. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Point 1 is the first I will try and crack. I need to dig out thread that explains how to have different engines set up. I used to have it set up but new PC nuked all my old set ups and I had serious headache getting games to play. Once I have the engines loaded I need to play through the campaign to see if they do carry through as has been implied by others on the other threads. Hope to try and get time for that attempt at the weekend, depending on the boss and dig workload. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Nice. It'd be good to see your results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I need to dig out thread that explains how to have different engines set up. Well if you cannot find the thread it is pretty straight forward - I often have older versions of games. Since I am going up in version I make a copy of the one I have and then apply the patch or upgrade to the copied directory. For you you will need to run the older install and make sure you tell it to install to a unique directory and not on top of your current install. All you have to do is make sure that any patch you apply is done into the correct directory. I have a directory structure like this C:/Programs/Battlefront/ CMBN220Pack/ CMBN311/ CMRT/ CMRT103/ Sadly the game files directories for every title but CMBN are shared between versions which means you have to be careful with scenario and campaign files but the files you care about probably have not changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delliejonut Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Overall I think this is shocking and I am surprised more has not been said about it. I guess maybe the number of people still playing the older campaigns are not that many and so not seen as an issue? It is shame that people put time into playing a campaign and then find it is broken especially the larger ones... Imagine not having the 6pdrs to stave of the Tigers in a certain campaign... I remember that moment and the sheer joy of winning the scenario... Lost to other players? Definitely lost to me. I was playing through The SC for the first time when this happened. It really bums me out. I consider Paper Tiger to be the best overall campaign designer for CMBN, having played through his other official campaigns several times before. It's like buying a gallon of chocolate ice cream only to get home and realize it's sherbert... or something... I don't really like sherbert 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks Ian.. I have now had time tonight to set up fresh install of V1.11 of CMBN with the CW module loaded so I can check Scottish Corridor at some stage. Next task is to play through DLH Campaign and see if my tanks are available in the follow on scenarios, if they are I hope that is case proven and it might then garner some love from Battlefront. Scottish Corridor I forgot was released with the CW module so if that is missing 6pdrs and was part of the module then that really IMO should be fixed by Battlefront as was released by them. Again not proven to me but there has been enough comments from other players that seem to show it has been broken... Anyway another update if DIY and garden work does not get in way... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Would be nice to hear something official from BFC about this... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted April 26, 2015 Author Share Posted April 26, 2015 Yes would be nice as I am now pretty certain something is up... Just finally had time to play DLH and get to second mission again playing same as I did with V3 of the engine but this time on V1.11 and I only got 2 Panthers in V3 Engine but in V1.11 I got all 5. So I am pretty certain something is up and will now stop playing DLH until we get to bottom of it. (I guess I need to move to Black Sea as there will be some cracking campaigns with that game). I have Saved files in V3 and V1.11 and can share with who needs them... Scottish Corridor is IMO the best ever Campaign I have played and to lose kit in a campaign that was in effect published by Battlefront as it was issued as part of the CW Module I would hope they can look at that? Can the players who have reported the issue provide save files? I can raise a ticket for DLH if that is the right way to go about it? So far these issues only seem to relate to Campaigns but I would guess some scenarios might be nerfed by missing kit but how you tell is beyond me and could just make it more of a challenge? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 PM sent for additional info. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kch001 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 If anybody has a list of the affected campaigns / scenarios then it would be great if they would share it. As others have said, then you can always do a dual install, and play the affected campaigns / scenarios with the older engine. But that means that you need a heads up on which ones have issues 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I can raise a ticket for DLH if that is the right way to go about it? That's a third-party campaign, so filing a support ticket won't be of any help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 That's a third-party campaign, so filing a support ticket won't be of any help. It might be if it's an engine change that's borked the thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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