Arc command threshold

[SlowMotion]

I believe a unit like tank should obey Arc command only to a limit.

If an enemy unit appears outside the arc and starts firing with weapons that can seriously damage or destroy the unit using arc

shouldn't the Arc be ignored and self defense have higher priority?

 

The case I just saw was some T72 model of mine had Arc command in effect.

A weaker enemy unit started firing from 90 degree angle and hit my tank at least 4 times to side armour with 30mm grenades.

Still my immobilized tank didn't turn its turret towards the enemy to defend itself.

 

Black Sea v3.01.

Edited April 19, 2015 by SlowMotion

[Kieme(ITA)]

Did your tank actually spot the enemy on its side?

 

I am asking because right now the game allows the unit that is ordered a cover arc to fire outside it/ignore it.

 

For example: if you order a tank a small cover arc and you start shooting it with another tank, you can be sure that after few seconds the tank with the cover arc will shoot back.

 

From the manual_

Any enemy units outside of this target arc will be ignored (until self-preservation takes over and the Tactical AI decides to override player orders; e.g. if an enemy unit suddenly pops up at extremely short range).

In your case either the incoming fire was judged not a big risk by your tank, or the enemy was very distant, or both cases were not enough for your tank to ignore your ordered cover arc.

 

All in all my suggestion is never to abuse the cover arcs and have faith in your troops, and rely to the arcs only when you really want to achieve a precise result in a precise situation.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[A Canadian Cat]

Ignoring cover arcs is unreliable at best. If you ordered the arc you will be upset when the crew ignores it

Here is the big take away: if you want your units to fire on the enemy, don't use a cover arc. If you don't want them to fire use one

A bit tongue in cheek there. When he use cover arcs you have to be very careful about surprise appearances. If a surprise is possible don't use one.

[eniced73]

 

I am asking because right now the game allows the unit that is ordered a cover arc to fire outside it/ignore it.

 

For example: if you order a tank a small cover arc and you start shooting it with another tank, you can be sure that after few seconds the tank with the cover arc will shoot back.

 

From the manual_

Any enemy units outside of this target arc will be ignored (until self-preservation takes over and the Tactical AI decides to override player orders; e.g. if an enemy unit suddenly pops up at extremely short range).

In your case either the incoming fire was judged not a big risk by your tank, or the enemy was very distant, or both cases were not enough for your tank to ignore your ordered cover arc.

 

I believe "until self-preservation" means that your unit with the arc will try to back away or find cover from the more dangerous threat.  I have NEVER seen a vehicle with a cover arc return fire if being fired upon outside of their arc.  Please attach an example if you have one.  I would be interested in seeing that.

 

We used to have this in the good ole' CMX1 games.  If a vehicle had a CA and was 'spotted' by an enemy he would drop the arc and either return fire or find cover I believe.  Not sure why this was dropped from the new generation games?

 

 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Because you gave the cover arc order. BFC decided not to mess with your orders as the default position. Sure there are exceptions but by default your units will obey your orders.

If you want them to fire at the enemy you have two choices. Don't use a cover arc or make sure you set the arc correctly. It is all up to you.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Just take an M1, put a T-72 in front of it, order the M1 a cover arc (armor) few meters around it- When the laser warning blinks the M1 will brake the arc and act accordingly.

[SlowMotion]

Did your tank actually spot the enemy on its side?

 

I am asking because right now the game allows the unit that is ordered a cover arc to fire outside it/ignore it.

 

For example: if you order a tank a small cover arc and you start shooting it with another tank, you can be sure that after few seconds the tank with the cover arc will shoot back.

 

Yes, my  tank had spotted the enemy unit. My tank was immobilized so it couldn't reverse to better position. So firing back was the only way to defend.

But the tank didn't do anything.  The enemy kept firing for about 50 seconds from maybe 300m.

Then during next turn I removed the arc, gave firing order and the enemy unit was history.

But this was possible only because the 30mm hits didn't destroy my tank.

IMO they could have immobilized it had it not been immobilized already.

 

I don't know if the code works so that in some situations arc should be ignored and self defense overrides it.

But it thinks defense means changing position or using smoke cover, but NOT using weapons which actually worked in this case.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Units will react defensively to enemies outside the covered arc if they have an automatic behavior such as popping smoke and reversing when lased, but Ian is correct that they will not usually open fire. There is a random chance that they will based on their Motivation rating, but even at "normal" motivation they usually hold fire.

[Thewood1]

This is one of those things where people start yelling for a save.  The soft settings can have a big impact here..experience, motivation, etc.  I have seen units ignore covered arc and fire when fired on several times through all the CM2 iterations.

[eniced73]

I have yet to see a unit ignore a CA and return fire when fired upon or hit in all titles before BS. 

 

Like I said a unit will break arc if it goes into defense mode.  Not sure how this is determined (randomly - I guess).  I have seen a unit hit multiple times by 30mm cannon and just sit there and take it.  I have seen a unit lose its main gun from this and then break arc, pop smoke and reverse.  I have also seen a unit beak arc when lased.  I have seen a unit sit there and NOT break arc when lased.  I have seen a tanks APS intercept two or three shots and still not break arc.  I have seen a tank intercept one shot, smoke, and then break arc.  Apparently the code works so that in some situations arc should be ignored and self defense overrides it and sometimes the CA sticks.

 

Slow Motion hit the nail on the head:

I don't know if the code works so that in some situations arc should be ignored and self defense overrides it.

But it thinks defense means changing position or using smoke cover, but NOT using weapons which actually worked in this case.

 

 

 

I have yet to see a unit return fire instead of smoking out and reversing to find cover.  All of the above that I describe are random.  Nothing happens all the time.  Just so the OP is clear on his question.

Edited April 20, 2015 by eniced73

[Kieme(ITA)]

Probably that T-72 didn't percieve the 30mm grenades from the side as a real threat, and therefore decided to stick with the ordered arc.

 

Let's take an example:

 

you are pretty sure an enemy tank will sooner or later pop out of that corner in the building area over there, so you order your T-72 a cover arc (armor) in front of it, to cover the space ahead; this way you are sure nothing will distract your unit from that incoming juicy and unaware target.

Now, the enemy has a 30mm grenade launcher that recently deployed in a house on the other side of the building area and starts hammering your T-72.

Outcomes:

 

-T-72 breaks cover arc order, turns around 45° on its right, turns the turret, aims and shoot, repeats a couple of shots against the grenade launcher destroying it. Meanwhile the enemy tank you expected pops out of the corner, turns the turret, and before your T-72 can react it's killed.

 

-T-72 keeps the cover arc, loses its tracks and gets a few other degraded outside modules. Meanwhile the enemy tank you expected pops out and is killed immediately.

 

As you can see there are many possibilities and outcomes, the fact is the cover arc is a specific player order, and thus it must have a strong force on the unit behaviour, otherwise it would be useless, if not even negative.

There might be hundreds of different situations, where you would have liked a different behaviour... in my opinion this one is pretty much consistent with the manual description of how cover arcs work.

[fireship4]

After losing a few units due to cover arcs, I now often use extremely wide/deep ones - this allows you to set facing (on two tanks bounding for example) without leaving them vulnerable to surprise.

[agusto]

After losing a few units due to cover arcs, I now often use extremely wide/deep ones - this allows you to set facing (on two tanks bounding for example) without leaving them vulnerable to surprise.

 

Yep, that is the way i use covered arcs as well. Most of the times i order ~4000m 180 degrees arcs because i want my tanks to turn their barrels towards a specific area. Other than that i use very short circular arcs as "hold fire" command or - rarely - to ambush enemy troops in an urban environment. In an urban environment you dont start shooting at the moment an enemy squad opens the door of a building, you wait until the whole squad is outside in the middle of the road and THEN start shooting. That way you make sure your guys kill them all and not just the first 1 or 2 unlucky guys who go through the door first.

Edited April 20, 2015 by agusto

[SlowMotion]

Probably that T-72 didn't percieve the 30mm grenades from the side as a real threat, and therefore decided to stick with the ordered arc.

 

Well the enemy unit used missile first, but missed. Only after that it used the 30mm gun.

So I think units shouldn't just consider the lethalness of hits but also what other weapons the enemy unit might have.

If such clear thinking is possible while your tank is being hit repeatedly

 

Maybe things are working according to manual, but keeping the arc surely wasn't how I continued the battle during next turn's planning phase.

Current algorithm feels like a drone might use, but we humans with just one life might be more cautious.

Edited April 20, 2015 by SlowMotion

[Vanir Ausf B]

Units with a covered arc will routinely ignore things hitting them from outside the arc that constitute a clear and present danger. We rely on this behavior to conduct ballistics testing.

[Kieme(ITA)]

If the tank with cover arc was "missed" by a missle it's possible (and realistic) that the crew didn't even notice that. The only possible alternative is if the missile in question had a laser guided device homing it. If that was the case, and the T-72 had a laser warning device (not damaged), then the T-72 would have reacted.

If a tank gets shot by PK machinegun fire you can't pretend the crew to think that a 125mm gun might be aiming toghether with the PK, thus reacting to the machine gun fire as it would for a 125mm shot, if that's the case cover arcs would be useless.

 

Player is there for a reason, to give order to the units, there's a tactical AI that takes immediate decisions and reacts to the situation as it folds out during a turn. Cover arc is an extreme tool, very strong in its way, and it's a direct order the player can give to a single unit to force a specific behaviour. Without strict and strong cover arc commands we couldn't plot ambushes, for example.

 

In the end it's very simple:

You need to rely on your troops: if you want them to be free to react to all threats then you must not use the cover arc commands.

If you want them to focus on a specific area/range and ignore the rest as much as possible use a cover arc.

 

The game gives you a lot of instruments. If you want to keep the freedom of reaction of a unit, yet still get it to fire some shots to a target you can use the target briefly command, for example. Not to mention that a cover arc command can be taken away/modified the next turn.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[IICptMillerII]

If I may weigh in on this; there is a thing called fire discipline. What fire discipline is, is well trained soldiers knowing when, and more importantly when NOT to shoot. This applies to everything, from the individual rifleman/tank, all the way to the company level and higher. A great example of this is the Pacific theater during WWII. At night, the Japanese would probe allied lines, looking for weak points and to map out the layout of the lines so that they may infiltrate the lines or discover the best way to attack it. The Americans manning their positions knew that firing at the enemy, even if clearly identified, was not always the best response. They knew, through tough experience and good training, to hold their fire. This way the Japanese would not be able to obtain the information they sought unless they further exposed themselves. Fire discipline encompasses much more than what I have described, and i you want to know more I urge you to look further into the subject.

 

My point is, is that if I tell one or more of my tanks to only engage enemy targets within a specific field of fire by designating said field of fire with a target arc command, then those soldiers better exercise good fire discipline and NOT engage anything outside of that arc, even if the target is just slightly outside of that arc. The TacAI will take the appropriate measures to protect itself given those orders, whether that means remaining concealed, or popping smoke and reversing, or even engaging a danger close threat that would be otherwise impossible to avoid. The TacAI does all of this already.

 

It is important to remember that the goal of a battle is not to kill every enemy in sight, it is to win the battle. The knee-jerk reaction that many (I myself am guilty of this, as I'm sure many others are as well) feel when seeing the enemy is to get all excited and start blasting away. You have to think, does blasting away get me closer or farther from victory? If you don't know, you have to make an on the spot decision as the commander by quickly weighing what you know against what you don't. Remember, there is no right answer necessarily. War determines who is left, not who is right. There have been plenty of encounters between opposing military forces where actual fighting was minimal or non-existent, yet there was still a clear victor. The reason you don't hear about it is because its not sexy and glorious like combat is portrayed to be. I believe it was Sun Tzu who said something along the lines of, 'the best victory is the one you achieve without having to fight.' Something along those lines. (Please anyone feel free to correct me, going of the top of my head there)

 

So remember, just because you see bad guys does not mean you should immediately engage them. The side that initiates the engagement (across all scales, individual to operational) has a clear and distinct advantage. The side that engages the enemy first at the time and place the initiating side chooses, that is truly an art of war.