MOS:96B2P Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I think there is some confusion reference skill level Iron which may be aggravated by the description for it in the game manual. The below was taken from page 29 of the CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMBS manuals and page 43 of the CMSF manual. All the manuals read the same for skill level Iron. I bolded the last part of the description that I think is confusing and probably incorrect. Judging from comments on the forum I think this bolded part puts off a lot of people who might use skill level Iron and benefit from the more detailed portrayal it provides of a units C2 status during the action/playback phase in WEGO. From the manuals: Iron is an optional setting that goes even one step further than Elite, and introduces special restrictions on what the player can do and when. While even more realistic than the other settings, this option introduces a number of interface limitations which might put off the casual player, so it is strictly an optional choice. - Friendly units need to be spotted just like enemy units. If you have a friendly unit not in line of sight or in contact with another friendly unit, then the only way to find this unit is by either re-establishing contact with another friendly unit or by clicking through the chain of command in the game interface, jumping from unit to unit. I admit I am not aware of any special restrictions on the player. AFAIK with the exception of the action/playback phase Iron plays just like Elite. You do not have to click through the chain of command, jumping from unit to unit to find the out of contact unit. When you have no unit selected (highlighted) all your units are displayed, whether they are in or out of C2, just like in the other skill levels. The difference between Elite and Iron is when you are in action/playback phase and you have a friendly unit selected. In this situation you can only see what the selected friendly unit is aware of to include other friendly units. This aids in the understanding of C2 and how C2, or the lack of it, plays a role in how this unit may react to different situations. When you unselect the unit all your units are again displayed along with what information you have on OpFor units. When you are in orders phase and you select a friendly unit all other friendly units remained displayed, just like in Elite. This screenshot is from orders phase with no friendly unit selected. Same as Elite skill level. This screenshot is from orders phase with a friendly team selected & no C2. Same as Elite skill level. Action/playback phase with a friendly unit selected & no C2. This is the difference from Elite. (As I understand it) In screenshot #3 Iron mode displays how A Team/3rd Squad perceives their situation. They can hear the shooting from two friendly tanks and one friendly fire team that are in contact along the road on their left flank. They also have some limited knowledge that there might be some friendly teams between themselves and the friendlies along the road. They have no knowledge of any OpFor units. (Actually there are OpFor units across the field but with no C2 the info is not reaching A Team/3rd Squad) A Team/3rd Squad is green experience with okay morale. IMO Iron mode makes it easier to recognize and predict what may happen if this team of green troops makes contact with OpFor units in its current C2 situation. Maybe this confusion comes from the difference between WEGO and Real Time? I don't play real time but maybe a real time player would have to click through his units to find one that was out of C2? If anybody has any information to add or maybe understands the manual directions better than I do please post a clarification. Anyways, for WEGO players if you like Elite you would probably like Iron and should consider it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I almost always play Iron and yeah the manual description is incorrect. One of these days that line will get fixed. You only have to deselect your unit to see where everyone is. Why I started using it was to get better situational awareness of my units. Only Iron shows what they can see of both sides units. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 MOS:96B2P, This is good to know. If further occurs to me that when arranging PBEM, it's probably a good idea to decide what the level of difficulty will be. I did a lot of PBEM in CMx1, but I don't recall ever dealing with that. Perhaps this was predetermined for the Invitational Tourney and all the ROW tournaments? Even so, I had a Forever War going with first Kingfish, then NG CavScout, and I don't recall negotiating a difficulty setting there. Was there a default, and only a hardy few deviated therefrom? Been too long. Regards, John Kettler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Sertorius Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I've been playing Iron exclusively for a long time, and never had any problems as far as not being able to do what I want to do. It just seems to be the most logical setting from an awareness point of view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Nice summation. Maybe this confusion comes from the difference between WEGO and Real Time? I don't play real time but maybe a real time player would have to click through his units to find one that was out of C2? If anybody has any information to add or maybe understands the manual directions better than I do please post a clarification. The difference is that in real time the effect of only seeing spotted friendly units when a friendly unit is selected is always in effect since there are no separate playback and orders phases. This is also true in turn-based TCP/IP since that is actually real time with mandatory pauses every 60 seconds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I think there is some confusion reference skill level Iron which may be aggravated by the description for it in the game manual. The below was taken from page 29 of the CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMBS manuals and page 43 of the CMSF manual. All the manuals read the same for skill level Iron. I bolded the last part of the description that I think is confusing and probably incorrect. Judging from comments on the forum I think this bolded part puts off a lot of people who might use skill level Iron and benefit from the more detailed portrayal it provides of a units C2 status during the action/playback phase in WEGO. From the manuals: Iron is an optional setting that goes even one step further than Elite, and introduces special restrictions on what the player can do and when. While even more realistic than the other settings, this option introduces a number of interface limitations which might put off the casual player, so it is strictly an optional choice. - Friendly units need to be spotted just like enemy units. If you have a friendly unit not in line of sight or in contact with another friendly unit, then the only way to find this unit is by either re-establishing contact with another friendly unit or by clicking through the chain of command in the game interface, jumping from unit to unit. I admit I am not aware of any special restrictions on the player. AFAIK with the exception of the action/playback phase Iron plays just like Elite. You do not have to click through the chain of command, jumping from unit to unit to find the out of contact unit. When you have no unit selected (highlighted) all your units are displayed, whether they are in or out of C2, just like in the other skill levels. The difference between Elite and Iron is when you are in action/playback phase and you have a friendly unit selected. In this situation you can only see what the selected friendly unit is aware of to include other friendly units. This aids in the understanding of C2 and how C2, or the lack of it, plays a role in how this unit may react to different situations. When you unselect the unit all your units are again displayed along with what information you have on OpFor units. When you are in orders phase and you select a friendly unit all other friendly units remained displayed, just like in Elite. This screenshot is from orders phase with no friendly unit selected. Same as Elite skill level. This screenshot is from orders phase with a friendly team selected & no C2. Same as Elite skill level. Action/playback phase with a friendly unit selected & no C2. This is the difference from Elite. (As I understand it) In screenshot #3 Iron mode displays how A Team/3rd Squad perceives their situation. They can hear the shooting from two friendly tanks and one friendly fire team that are in contact along the road on their left flank. They also have some limited knowledge that there might be some friendly teams between themselves and the friendlies along the road. They have no knowledge of any OpFor units. (Actually there are OpFor units across the field but with no C2 the info is not reaching A Team/3rd Squad) A Team/3rd Squad is green experience with okay morale. IMO Iron mode makes it easier to recognize and predict what may happen if this team of green troops makes contact with OpFor units in its current C2 situation. Maybe this confusion comes from the difference between WEGO and Real Time? I don't play real time but maybe a real time player would have to click through his units to find one that was out of C2? If anybody has any information to add or maybe understands the manual directions better than I do please post a clarification. Anyways, for WEGO players if you like Elite you would probably like Iron and should consider it. Thanks for the effort and screenshots. Iron as described in the manual definitely seemed to much hassle to be worth it. I may yet try it. And it will be entirely your fault! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 This is good to know. If further occurs to me that when arranging PBEM, it's probably a good idea to decide what the level of difficulty will be. I did a lot of PBEM in CMx1, but I don't recall ever dealing with that. Perhaps this was predetermined for the Invitational Tourney and all the ROW tournaments? Even so, I had a Forever War going with first Kingfish, then NG CavScout, and I don't recall negotiating a difficulty setting there. Was there a default, and only a hardy few deviated therefrom? Been too long. John unfortunately CMx1 was before my time with this game. As a result I am not familiar with the skill settings of the CMx1 game. I read posts from you old timers about CMx1 and I am sorry I missed out on it. Sounds like it had a lot of cool stuff especially considering how long ago it was originally released. I read a thread just recently where they said a tank could push a second vehicle out of the way to open up a blocked bridge. Fire in buildings (and I think fields?) that spread is another CMx1 feature that comes to mind. Makes me wonder how cool CMx3 will be. I am thinking something along the lines of the Holodeck on the Enterprise. The difference is that in real time the effect of only seeing spotted friendly units when a friendly unit is selected is always in effect since there are no separate playback and orders phases. This is also true in turn-based TCP/IP since that is actually real time with mandatory pauses every 60 seconds. Thanks. This helps to explain where the verbiage in the manuals came from. And I did not even think about TCP/IP. Maybe in a future version of the manual they can change the wording some to differentiate between the different play styles. Wow, Real Time Iron, now that is hard core. Thanks for the effort and screenshots. Iron as described in the manual definitely seemed to much hassle to be worth it. I may yet try it. And it will be entirely your fault! Your welcome. Now back to making those CAARs!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Playing Iron mode just adds the hassle of having to constantly click an extra time to deselect your selected unit, in order to see your other units. Maybe I just don't get it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Playing Iron mode just adds the hassle of having to constantly click an extra time to deselect your selected unit, in order to see your other units. Maybe I just don't get it. Only during the replay, as this thread is trying to emphasise. I'm thinking that's not too great a burden, at least not as much of a burden as it would be during the orders phase. Really can't imagine playing Iron RT though... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Playing Iron mode just adds the hassle of having to constantly click an extra time to deselect your selected unit, in order to see your other units. Maybe I just don't get it. It is the only mode that gives you the full perspective on your unit's awareness relative to friendly units. If you aren't particulary concerned about this then yeah it is probably not your cup of tea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Really can't imagine playing Iron RT though... It is actually less difficult, since you can instantly judge what is and isn't being seen by a particular unit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 It is actually less difficult, since you can instantly judge what is and isn't being seen by a particular unit. Which, to me is significantly less useful (since in lower FoW settings I can judge what enemy units are visible to a particular unit by selecting it) than being able to see icons flash, or errant units going where I didn't mean them to while I've got a particular unit selected to give it orders or follow its PoV. C3 is important, but I've got a pretty good handle on what elements will be in contact with their superiors anyway; Iron deducts more information than it adds. Which might be great for immersion, but would be a detriment to pulling the handles on an engagement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 IIRC there is one game related difference between elite and iron: on iron your units have to spot friendlies to get back into C2 while on elite spotting is automatic as soon as you have LOS. So on iron it may take a bit longer to come into C2 for your units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 IIRC there is one game related difference between elite and iron: on iron your units have to spot friendlies to get back into C2 while on elite spotting is automatic as soon as you have LOS. So on iron it may take a bit longer to come into C2 for your units. Whoa! Mr Repository Admin- what's up with that? Curiouser and curiouser. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 IIRC there is one game related difference between elite and iron: on iron your units have to spot friendlies to get back into C2 while on elite spotting is automatic as soon as you have LOS. So on iron it may take a bit longer to come into C2 for your units. Elite is more forgiving in other ways. I have discovered through testing that Elite will allow visual C2 in situations where friendly units are marginally out of LOS.http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116617-suggestion-for-a-better-iron-difficulty/?p=1555904 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 Elite is more forgiving in other ways. I have discovered through testing that Elite will allow visual C2 in situations where friendly units are marginally out of LOS.http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116617-suggestion-for-a-better-iron-difficulty/?p=1555904 Thanks Vanir. I had forgotten about that thread. Another reason I like Iron. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacroix Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 after reading this, iron is the way to go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Yeah. I avoided iron for a while. Once I started using it, I haven't looked back. It really does make the game feel/play better. IMHO. It's closer to the ideal of wysiwyg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Even for a rubbish player like myself "Iron" just feels right. I wouldn't go back to playing at a lower level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Elite is more forgiving in other ways. I have discovered through testing that Elite will allow visual C2 in situations where friendly units are marginally out of LOS.http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116617-suggestion-for-a-better-iron-difficulty/?p=1555904 Keep in mind this is just for the player. The AI does not suffer this handicap in iron mode. The AI in iron mode spot their own units much like elite mode for C2 purposes Edited April 27, 2015 by Lanzfeld 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I am surprised to hear that. Mind you I was surprised to hear that Iron was any different than Elite too but someone did the testing for that. How did you determine that the AI spots like Elite even on Iron? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I am surprised to hear that. Mind you I was surprised to hear that Iron was any different than Elite too but someone did the testing for that. How did you determine that the AI spots like Elite even on Iron? http://community.battlefront.com/topic/115503-skill-levels-effects-and-is-it-the-same-for-the-ai/?hl=loading#entry1539480 I have yet to see any evidence of the claim. But even if it were true I wouldn't care. The game would benefit in some ways if the AI was allowed to play by different rules. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) I am surprised to hear that. Mind you I was surprised to hear that Iron was any different than Elite too but someone did the testing for that. How did you determine that the AI spots like Elite even on Iron? I tested it back in CMSF and brought it up to Steve. He agreed and said it was done this way so as not to make it any harder then it has to be for the AI. I have not heard and I have not tested if it was ever changed since then. Edited April 28, 2015 by Lanzfeld 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehunter Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Playing on Iron mode for the first time today. I noticed that squads out of c2 with their platoon commander did not follow orders. Then when the Platoon commander did show up on scene, it took a hell of a long time for the squads to start responding again. I never saw this in Elite. This normal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I haven't really experienced an issue with following orders based on C2. I have however seen a delay based on the squad's quality. Could be that there is a relationship for really poor quality units. Now mind you I always play iron, so I don't have anything to compare with regarding elite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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