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Wiggum15

Must have feature for the TacAI -> Area Target

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Hi !

 

The TacAI is still unable to use some kind of Area target as far as i know.

That would be a really important feature, and it should be possible to script the TacAI in a way so it uses area fire on suspected enemy positions from time to time.

 

What do you think ?

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Honestly not sure. It sounds full of potential issues. For example deliberately creating FOW situations to cause the AI to waste ammo and give away positions. You can do that now with recon by fire, but at least you are exposing a unit to do so.

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Hi !

 

The TacAI is still unable to use some kind of Area target as far as i know.

That would be a really important feature, and it should be possible to script the TacAI in a way so it uses area fire on suspected enemy positions from time to time.

 

What do you think ?

 

I think it would be good if the scenario designer could control such behavior. Even better if the AI was adaptive, i.e. after a unit's initial contact with the enemy, they are more prone to area fire, but as ammo goes below 50% they limit themselves.

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I'm not sure I'd want my own guys selecting their own suspected enemy positions to fire upon, especially if I want to conserve ammo or stay hidden, but this feature would be great for an AI opponent. It would add a whole new level of unpredictability to the AI and give it another tool found in the playbook of human players.

Maybe it could somehow be part of the "strategic" AI.

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In iron mode, stop and take a look at how many ? markers you get on a large moving enemy.  You can get 5-10 different ? markers over a couple turns for each enemy unit.  Your ammo would run low pretty quickly.

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Sorry but why is it tougher all you need to do is to de-select all units and then you also see them all.

And in what way C&C is different ? in the manual it says nothing about it.

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Sorry but why is it tougher all you need to do is to de-select all units and then you also see them all.

And in what way C&C is different ? in the manual it says nothing about it.

 

Maybe one way to 'improve' IRON-mode could be to... show NO units AT ALL... when you have no friendly unit selected and ones you select a unit it should work like IRON-mode works now (with regards to spotting and information)..

 

Maybe not the perfect solution but i think it might be an easy 'tweak' to the current system to se how this works...If this is something that BFC could considder...

 

 

I think the basic idea with IRON-mode is kind of cool but i have the same understanding of the current system as you do...De-select everyone...and you see everything...

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uuuhhrf...I though a bit more about this...

 

At the start of the scenario if you have no one selected and therefore...SEES NO ONE...It could be a 'Little hard' to select a unit B)

 

problem, problem...

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If the AI can be programmed to react to the "contact" markers that are generated by the game, then having the AI conduct area fire on contact markers would be relatively simple.

 

Simple, but maybe insufficient. You can have contact markers at locations where you are 100% sure there aren't any enemy troops, simply because that was the last known location of an enemy unit. You can have contact markers that are out of date immediately from losing sight of moving vehicles. Area fire in both of those situation is pointless (and I'm sure we can dream up some more examples).

 

You'd need rather more complex logic to come up with something that a) doesn't make the AI look more stupid (regardless of whether it improved overall performance or not and B) isn't exploitable to e.g. get the AI to area fire most/all of its RPGs at a non-target, (Although it should be noted that the lack of AI area fire is also exploitable...)

 

I'd love to see AI area fire in the game. But I think it is more complex than you are imagining to put in something that would actually be a net improvement.

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BFC stated in a long ago CMBN thread that C&C distances are longer to stay in communications in iron mode.  I have tested this several times and it didn't seem to effect radio comms, but seemed to significantly effect visual and spoken command distance.

 

I know there were a few other things around arty and command structure, but I don't even know where to begin looking for the thread.

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Sorry but why is it tougher all you need to do is to de-select all units and then you also see them all.

And in what way C&C is different ? in the manual it says nothing about it.

 

As I understand it from my own admittedly few attempts to play in Iron mode, it simulates a "top down" command structure by only being able to issue orders to units within an HQ's Command and Control. Spotting information is also restricted to Command and Control as well.

As a player who firmly believes that Corporals and Sergeants actually possess brains enough to say, "let's clear that house" or "fire on that machinegun", I avoid Iron difficulty mode.

The best example I can think up is from Band of Brothers Ep. 3 "Carentan", when they get into the fight outside of town, and you see Lt. Winters walking up and down the line directing the fires of his squads and encouraging his men. Iron difficulty mode simulates that behavior by requiring the presence of HQ's to direct their subordinates.

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You can have contact markers at locations where you are 100% sure there aren't any enemy troops, simply because that was the last known location of an enemy unit. You can have contact markers that are out of date immediately from losing sight of moving vehicles. Area fire in both of those situation is pointless (and I'm sure we can dream up some more examples).

 

That is true, but there are more than one type of situation to receive a contact marker. I didn't make clear in my post (my bad), but I meant to refer specifically to "Lost Contact" type of markers. A spot where the AI definitely observed enemy units but subsequently lost contact might be worth the AI issuing a "Target Briefly" order on that action spot.

You certainly wouldn't want the AI to area fire on every single marker that pops up, only the most recent, and only for a limited time.

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As I understand it from my own admittedly few attempts to play in Iron mode, it simulates a "top down" command structure by only being able to issue orders to units within an HQ's Command and Control.

 

Iron difficulty mode simulates that behavior by requiring the presence of HQ's to direct their subordinates.

 

No this is absolutely incorrect.  I play on Iron mode every day (I wish I did not but I have one long time PBEM partner that loves it so I follow along).  I'll make no comment on C2 differences as @Thewood1 has tested it and I never have but you can still issue orders to anyone not shaken or paniced or surrendering just like in all the other modes.  The difference is that when you have one of your units selected the view is as that unit sees things for all units friendly and enemy.  That is the difference.  And that difference is why I personally don't like it - because I have to click all over the place to figure out what is going on and find everyone to be able to give orders to.  I see the benefit of immersion - I get that.  I just find the cost way higher than I am happy to pay.

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I play Elite with a few "house rules" like for example i never use area fire to support another unit if the unit has no clue about the enemy unit/position (identified or suspected contact).

And i try to dont advance at map edges because this gives you a unfair advantage because you dont need to worry about your flank.

Edited by Wiggum15

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You issue orders just like any other mode...from top to bottom.  But C&C, for all of its sometimes hidden meanings, is slightly more difficult due to range limitations and radio limitations.

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I play Elite with a few "house rules" like for example i never use area fire to support another unit if the unit has no clue about the enemy unit/position (identified or suspected contact).

And i try to dont advance at map edges because this gives you a unfair advantage because you dont need to worry about your flank.

 

I do the same thing Wiggum, if an enemy unit doesn't have at least a "?" above it I will not fire on it with one of my units until they either spot it or are relayed its position through C and C. I think that is a great house rule.

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And that difference is why I personally don't like it - because I have to click all over the place to figure out what is going on and find everyone to be able to give orders to.

How can that be when the effect you refer to isn't present during the orders phase? Unless you are playing real time? I play Iron mode exclusively and have no idea why any one playing WEGO would want anything different. It's like extra realism for free, IMO.

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How can that be when the effect you refer to isn't present during the orders phase? Unless you are playing real time? I play Iron mode exclusively and have no idea why any one playing WEGO would want anything different. It's like extra realism for free, IMO.

As long as you have no units selected you can see everyone, but if you select a unit to give it orders then the effect is as Ian describes IIRC.  So whenever you give orders the view you see is the view that the unit sees and you have to remember what the battlefield looked like when nobody is selected while giving your orders.  I like Iron mode as well so I don't have any issues with it, but I can see where some might be inconvenienced by it when trying to coordinate moves with friendly units.  I also seem to recall that the higher you go in difficulty level the closer friendly units need to be to each other in order to be in command and control, although it has been a long time since I actually looked at it so it is possible that it has changed a bit from what I remember.

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For the record I certainly wouldn't mind having area fire ability for the AI, but I can't think of a way that it could be executed in a satisfactory way.  For one thing the AI is going to blow off ammo without any regard as to how much is remaining or what the situation is.  As long as the AI is area firing the AI will be area firing, so there would need to be some logical way to have the AI know when to stop firing.  The AI is essentially playing the game blind so you have to account for that.  Because area fire is targeting specific locations on a map, the only way I could see it happening would be if the designer could 'paint' a target area on the map when creating AI plans, but even in that case it is almost impossible to know where the player is going to be at any particular time so depending upon the situation it could be a complete waste of ammunition.  Triggers might help with that, but once again, getting the AI to execute an area fire plan while playing blind without making the AI look foolish would be difficult to pull off.  Try playing a game where all of your orders are plotted before the scenario begins and you don't change a single thing during the course of the game and see how easy it would be to try and plot effective area fire on an enemy position.

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As long as you have no units selected you can see everyone, but if you select a unit to give it orders then the effect is as Ian describes IIRC.

No it is not. During the orders phase you see all friendly units at all times, just as in Elite or any other mode.

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