Spotting .... again ...

[fry30]

 

 

 

Big flame at Squatting dog. Basically, you're an idiot if you can't connect the dots and see that apparently Sburke and I have the last name. Because Burke, aside from a coarse verb to strangle someone, is a last name. You dolt.

 

BTW, why did you put my user name in quotations? The name on my birth certificate is not Fry. You don't need to put quotation marks around my nickname, you waste. Good night, and be happy I pared this down for us all.

Edited April 25, 2015 by fry30

[fry30]

Oh and Luke the trees are abstracted. Not sure exactly how, but they are abstracted. 

[A Canadian Cat]

What did I do

we should just call him a whambulance and let him go back under his bridge after treatment.

[LukeFF]

Oh and Luke the trees are abstracted. Not sure exactly how, but they are abstracted. 

 

Ok, there's a strong argument.   The only thing trees do that isn't 1:1 is the blocking of vehicle and gun turret movement, but that's only to keep the game from being bogged down in pathfinding calculations. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by LukeFF

[Squatdog]

Not sure exactly

 

This sums up every post.

 

You can clearly see that the tree is modelled 1:1 because it detonates the Panzerfaust and first grenade.

[ww2steel]

I actually came on here to ask about exactly this very topic, and saw it already up and running.  I just exited the game yesterday with a 3-finger-salute (Ctl-Alt-Del) because I was so incredibly frustrated with exactly this.

 

QB, urban map, 19:10 start, overcast, light fog.  At least 80m indicated visibility.  Defending as Russians.  Germans start to move immediately, I get the "I think they're over there" all over their assembly area.  My guys got POUNDED by heavy arty.  After all dust had cleared, suppression had stopped I have had no contact.  Maybe 20 mins passes.  Then I start getting the possible enemy icon, moving through my lines.  My guys are unsuppressed, with multiple, fully interlocking fields of view.  Enemy Infantry has moved through my lines in full view of my guys.  There's a 250/9 struggling to drive around and literally touching my SU-76 (which I've had significant spotting problems from before).  Soon it becomes clear that after very light contact that the entire German unit has moved through my lines.  Now I have to try to attack a numerically superior force in my own rear area.  Every now and then I bump into the Germans, usually with murderous results to my guys at about 2m.  Every now and then my T-34 spots someone, but does not fire, possibly due to the extended aiming times at high elevation angles because the enemy is usually spotted about an arm's length of my tank.  I get the bow MG to fire a little sometimes.  My tank won't shoot so I bring in infantry.  2 teams, 2nd floor of different buildings, maybe 12m from a few Germans laying or kneeling beside a building in the street.  Full LOS, (T-34 still won't fire) they can't see them.  Period.  The Germans start to crawl away so I order area fire fire with the infantry.  Sure enough, my T-34 is immobilized.  Infantry NEVER spotted the Germans.  No supression, 12m, no map objects interfering (trees, grass, smoke, elves) full LOS.  Over and over and over I bumped into them at knife range.  Why was I getting visibility indicated out to 80m???  (Sorry no savegave because I was mad and exited.)

 

I came in to put it into the support forum as a possible bug report, but not to double post it's here.  I understand vehicles can struggle to see things- angles, blind spots, bad armored glass, damage... whatever.  But if visibility is 80m I would expect that enemy troops should be able to be spotted by your infanty out to (though certainly not usually at) that range.  An occasional extremely close surprise is fine.  But to never see beyond a few meters, and then only rarely, and have a fully defended town fully infiltrated with only a few shots being fired- well, it was frustrating.

 

I don't believe that is intentionally coded that way.

 

Mike

[womble]

What time was it by the time the Germans were infiltrating your lines? What time was sunset? Foggy nights aren't the best for good seeing

 

It's been mentioned before, but if your "best LOS" is 80m, that's the furthest it's even theoretically possible to see. It's the furthest your troops will area fire. It doesn't necessarily mean you can see that far, and it's a very strong indicator that visibility is extremely poor. But no one can tell unless you can provide a saved game, unfortunately.

 

That said it does sound like a very extreme example of blind pTruppen, and may, indeed, be a bug, and should be raised with the helpdesk (link on front page of the BFC site), rather than here on the forum. The fact that your tank saw more than your infantry is hinky for starters.

 

I note that many examples of dodgy-seeming spotting are experienced at very close encounter ranges. If there's some problem with short range spotting, it's going to be exacerbated in a scenario where short-ranged spotting is the only option, so your save could be very helpful in identifying a problem, if it exists.

[ww2steel]

Approximately 19:35, sunset whatever time for Ukraine in Sep'44, light fog, so yes, clearly reduced vis.  But not 2-3m.  I have noticed before that with long visibility indicated (200-300m) at night that vehicles can literally pass each-other and not see anything.  I guess that means that they would return fire at muzzle flashes to 200m, but that due to the dark they can't see their hands in front of their faces?  That was my last frustrating night battle.  Line of tanks, several hundred meters vis indicated, German vehicles drove unseen through my line of tanks and assault guns spaced about 20m apart in open grass.

 

I forgot to put this into the previous post, but (CMx2 only) extensively playing CMSF, a lot of time in CMBN (pre-3.0), and only a little time in CMBS- I have ONLY noticed this in CMRT.  I wonder if this is a 3.0 problem?

 

I'll manually set up the game same as before and see what happens.  It was a QB though, so there will be variables.  If it does it again I'll post a savegame.

 

Mike

Edited April 28, 2015 by ww2steel

[womble]

To repeat myself: just because your troops can area target out to several hundred metres doesn't mean they can actually spot anything at that distance.

 

Maybe there's something wrong with v3 (or RT); the night settings have lost a decimal or something, or maybe it's just you've not hit this combination of fog and dusk before. I might have a footle around in v3 BN and see if I can get anything comparable to occur.

[ww2steel]

Yeah... you don't need to repeat yourself.  I'm not a noob, I did read your post, and I'm not here to argue (especially when we seem to mostly agree).  I have hit this combination of fog / dusk before in CM games a thousand times before, which is precisely WHY I came here to post the abnormality.  I have had this problem several times since using the 3.0 engine.  As we have both indicated, it seems to be an engine problem.  In my work I deal regularly with visibility.  I know what 500 RVR looks like; I know what 1600 RVR looks like.  I understand that just because you have LOS to 200m doesn't mean you can detect a person standing in full view at 200m, that it means that a light source would be visible at 200m (as in, how they do RVR readings).  I think we also agree that 80m visibility, as previously described, at 7pm in September, would lead to detection of someone walking down the street towards you at ranges exceeding 2-3m.  I'm not talking occasionally, I'm talking there were NO detections of troops (not firing) beyond 2-3m.  If you think that that range is intended, fine.  It seems a bit short to me.

 

Regards,

Mike

[ww2steel]

Hi again.  I've done a bunch of testing.  Unlimited vis scenarios I'm good with their spotting distances.

 

Try this scenario.  1900, 2Sep (dusk but sky is otherwise light if set to "clear", full Moon- not up yet), LIGHT fog.  (Matches my original scenario.)

 

http://ww2steel.com/temp/Spotting%20tests.btt

 

Play as Germans, Scenario Author, don't forget to place a very small arc facing out of the window your guy is looking at, don't hide him or anything.  AI will do the rest.  16 dismounted Soviet truck drivers will reach you at a jog in about 3 mins.  On average, you will see about 3 of them.  The rest will pass about 11m from your guy, completely unseen.  That, to me, is NOT light fog.  Everyone will have their own definition. 

 

Please let me know if you have significantly different results.

 

Mike

[ww2steel]

I thought there was just one "Ring to rule them all":

 

 

I tried in foxholes "light" fog, the Russians run to within 5m before spotting ever occurs.  (Of course, the German in the foxhole gets spotted just as quickly.)

 

Trying out other fog states next.

 

 

 

[Lt Bull]

I actually came on here to ask about exactly this very topic, and saw it already up and running.  I just exited the game yesterday with a 3-finger-salute (Ctl-Alt-Del) because I was so incredibly frustrated with exactly this.

 

QB, urban map, 19:10 start, overcast, light fog.  At least 80m indicated visibility.  Defending as Russians.  Germans start to move immediately, I get the "I think they're over there" all over their assembly area.  My guys got POUNDED by heavy arty.  After all dust had cleared, suppression had stopped I have had no contact.  Maybe 20 mins passes.  Then I start getting the possible enemy icon, moving through my lines.  My guys are unsuppressed, with multiple, fully interlocking fields of view.  Enemy Infantry has moved through my lines in full view of my guys.  There's a 250/9 struggling to drive around and literally touching my SU-76 (which I've had significant spotting problems from before).  Soon it becomes clear that after very light contact that the entire German unit has moved through my lines.  Now I have to try to attack a numerically superior force in my own rear area.  Every now and then I bump into the Germans, usually with murderous results to my guys at about 2m.  Every now and then my T-34 spots someone, but does not fire, possibly due to the extended aiming times at high elevation angles because the enemy is usually spotted about an arm's length of my tank.  I get the bow MG to fire a little sometimes.  My tank won't shoot so I bring in infantry.  2 teams, 2nd floor of different buildings, maybe 12m from a few Germans laying or kneeling beside a building in the street.  Full LOS, (T-34 still won't fire) they can't see them.  Period.  The Germans start to crawl away so I order area fire fire with the infantry.  Sure enough, my T-34 is immobilized.  Infantry NEVER spotted the Germans.  No supression, 12m, no map objects interfering (trees, grass, smoke, elves) full LOS.  Over and over and over I bumped into them at knife range.  Why was I getting visibility indicated out to 80m???  (Sorry no savegave because I was mad and exited.)

 

I came in to put it into the support forum as a possible bug report, but not to double post it's here.  I understand vehicles can struggle to see things- angles, blind spots, bad armored glass, damage... whatever.  But if visibility is 80m I would expect that enemy troops should be able to be spotted by your infanty out to (though certainly not usually at) that range.  An occasional extremely close surprise is fine.  But to never see beyond a few meters, and then only rarely, and have a fully defended town fully infiltrated with only a few shots being fired- well, it was frustrating.

 

I don't believe that is intentionally coded that way.

 

Mike

 

In case it isn't clear from this thread, it seems the CM LOS mechanics progressively become unrealistic and inconsistent the more the scenario visibility conditions become worse.  My advice is to simply avoid all low visibility scenarios like the one you just played.  It has already been shown that even in scenarios where the LOS tool extends out to 40m, units will only spot non-firing units if they move and happen to literally come in to physical contact with each other.

 

Isn't this screenshot enough to make any player looking to play a realistic wargame delete any low visibility battle from their scenario folder? (for those who are new to the thread, yes there actually is a T-34 in the middle there, see post #47 for save file to check for yourself).  PS: if it really was that dark and visibility was that bad, what the heck are they doing even trying to engage the enemy, let alone knowing where to walk?  They may as well all be blindfolded.

 

 

It is also incredible that there has been no comment on the "something not right here" (bug?) observations made when using the LOS tool in "low light" scenario conditions as described in detail with supporting evidence/files in posts #50, #58 and #64.

 

One observation was the "blue line creep"...in low visibility conditions, when checking LOS with the LOS tool say across flat open ground, regardless of what the max LOS range is indicated initially, it is possible to have this LOS tool show clear LOS extending the whole length of even the largest maps.

 

The other is that opening and reloading the same night scenario can result in situations where the maximum LOS first reported can vary by at least 1000m.

 

Have yet to know if either of these are CM working as intended.

[Thewood1]

Where is the LOS tool...I didn't know they added that.

[Whiterider]

Do these issues happen only in CMRT? What about CMBN or CMFI?

[Lt Bull]

Where is the LOS tool...I didn't know they added that.

 

I'm sorry if I am confusing you.  For want of a shorter term, I mean the targeting line that gets created when you click on a unit and select the "Fire" order.  It strictly speaking is not an LOS Tool (I believe) but is meant to be used as such.

 

 

Do these issues happen only in CMRT? What about CMBN or CMFI?

 

Haven't check in CMFI or CMBN but I can only assume it is the same engine/mechanics.  Is simple to test.

 

I you have downloaded/tested what I have highlighted, I would appreciate it if you let us know about it here.  Same goes with the BFC inner sanctum as i believe I read (but can't seem to now find) a post that indicated some LOS issue was found while looking at something else.

[Whiterider]

Oh my god! In CMBS a infantry HQ (with binoculars and night vision) is not able to see a T-72 tank at a distance of 15 metres (clear terrain), for five turns the tank is almost invisible (you can only see the contact icon) . It´s a quick battle with light fog at night. However, one of my vehicles (M2a3) also close to the enemy tank, can clearly see it. I only have installed CMBS, Could anybody make a test in CMBN or CMFI?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Whiterider

[Bellaco]

I think that BF should say something about all this. There is no information for players, tables or some kind of % chances document as a guide, specially for those players that edit scenarios as myself. I have been playing this game for years and I think that sometimes it is ridiculous that your troops dont see a tank which is in front of them 10-15 meters away or even 2-3 meters away. If your troops are pinned or in panic it could be comprehensible but not when they are ok.

In the other hand, I think that sometimes your troops detect enemies as they had "Big Brother Eyes" and can see almost everything at distant distances. 

So in my opinion BF should fix this "Lottery" and make more realistic engines. I suggest this changes:   

 

1. Fix visibility. Something more realistic between "Blind" troops and "Big Brother Eyes".

2. Camouflage for all units would be a very realistic option.

3. Smoke in battle. It would be another realistic option adding big fires in houses, crops, woods. (Now there are some ridiculous fires that never grow)

I like to design my own campaigns and scenarios to play with some friends and I miss "smoke" or "fire" options when I want to design a real battle scenario. If there are bombing craters, there should fire in houses, crops and woods and smoke all around. 

4. This "Lottery" visibility disturb game and accuracy. In my opinion there is too much accuracy in the game. In real war, troops, tanks and guns spent much more AMMO to hit or kill an enemy. Reduce accuracy 66% at least.  

5. In "Combat Mission Barbarrossa to Berlin" (Much more realistic game in many aspects ) flames were spreading more realistically and "Flamethrowers were important. Now they are useless units. In that "old game", you used your flamethrowers to burn houses where your enemies were hidden...etc.

6. By the way, BF, give to russian troops antitank grenades, molotov coctels if you want to make a real game about eastern front. With coctels molotov russian troops used to make "walls of fire" to hide themselves from enemies...etc.

7. Please dont kill commanders and halftracks gunners so easily. You can see them but it is quiet difficult to kill them.

 

I think is BF make this small changes (I have more ideas...lol), many players would appreciate it. There are many people playing this game, making mods, designing scenarios...etc. Please BF listen to us, it is very important to have your clients happy. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Bellaco

[womble]

At 15m, at night in the countryside with no street lighting, in light fog, personally, I don't think that's unreasonable, for unaided vision. Binos won't help at all. Night vision might or might not help, depending on its type. It's a tank, though, so anything operating in the IR spectrum should be helpful in seeing it, and light fog shouldn't attenuate IR too badly at that range. Pure image amplification won't help much because it'll amplify the scatter off the fog as much as the light bouncing off what you're trying to see. At least in this case you've got a "tentative" icon; your team knows there's something there (they can probably hear it), but not what it is, exactly.

[Whiterider]

I made another test (night/light fog), this time the infantry unit could clearly see the tank from a longer distance (more than 25 m). Simply, I don´t understand.

[Thewood1]

I think its because sighting has a random factor in it.  I have found that sighting is not a solid yes and no every time.  There seem to be a bunch of variables, and one of them appears to be a random factor.

[A Canadian Cat]

I made another test (night/light fog), this time the infantry unit could clearly see the tank from a longer distance (more than 25 m). Simply, I don´t understand.

 

The date and therefore the phase of the moon is modelled which changes the brightness.   Just a possible explanation.

[A Canadian Cat]

I think its because sighting has a random factor in it.  I have found that sighting is not a solid yes and no every time.  There seem to be a bunch of variables, and one of them appears to be a random factor.

 

Definitely some randomness involved but really only for how fast things get spotted.  If there is a good sight line eventually the other guy will get spotted.  The randomness factors how long that takes not weather you will or will not spot the other guy.

[Bellaco]

22 June 1944 Light Woods   8:00 a.m  Dense Fog   Line of Sight (LOS) 170 m

 

4 german tanks with commanders outside "Open up"  meet 4 russian tanks with commander outside "Open up"

 

All of them Conscripts.

They are all "Hunting" each other.

 

This is when this T34 and Pzr IV find each other, 30 cm away. Commanders Outside!!  "Open up"

Two other tanks meet at 30 m away but this is at least curious. And other two at 5 m.

 

We need something between "Blind" troops and "Big Brother Eyes" troops please.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Bellaco

[womble]

22 June 1944 Light Woods   8:00 a.m  Dense Fog   Line of Sight (LOS) 170 m

 

4 german tanks with commanders outside "Open up"  meet 4 russian tanks with commander outside "Open up"

 

All of them Conscripts.

They are all "Hunting" each other.

 

This is when this T34 and Pzr IV find each other, 30 cm away. Commanders Outside!!  "Open up"

Two other tanks meet at 30 m away but this is at least curious. And other two at 5 m.

 

We need something between "Blind" troops and "Big Brother Eyes" troops please.

 

 

Hello!!!.jpg

I have to wonder whether some people have ever been outside in dense fog. I got caught in some dense fog once while driving. My passenger (dad) chose to get out and walk along the boundary line of the road, and I followed his shadowy form. That's a distance of less than 3m from me to him, and I could barely make him out, knowing he was there. I wouldn't have seen anything further away, no matter how big it was. I certainly couldn't see the boundary line on the road surface beyond the front of the car.

 

Of course tanks are blind in those kinds of conditions. You keep burbling on about what sort of "LOS" the target tool gives you, but that's thoroughly misleading. Oh, and Experience level of the troops affects how well they spot, with, unsurprisingly, Conscripts being the worst.