Modern-day Korea

[WriterJWA]

Just a random shower thought/question.... Has the idea of a Combat Mission: Black Sea expansion covering the NKPA coming across the DMZ ever been discussed? Would that even be a thing that might sell well? I've been re-reading the novel 38 North Yankee and thought there might be room in this game for something depicting actions on the peninsula.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2015 by WriterJWA

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

I'd buy the game, but Battlefront would have to be Very Generous to make the DPRK dangerous in a conventional force on force fight.  Chinese forces could be interesting but the gap of information on what their "good" stuff can actually do is much worse than the information we have on Russian platforms. 

[Kieme(ITA)]

Not sure that would fit CMBS. Combat Mission Black Sea with an expansion up in korea wouldn't make much sense. The setting is very interesting, that's for sure, but would be more suited for a dedicated title rather than an expansion.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Not sure that would fit CMBS. Combat Mission Black Sea with an expansion up in korea wouldn't make much sense. The setting is very interesting, that's for sure, but would be more suited for a dedicated title rather than an expansion.

 

This too.  Given the vast difference in terrain, and the fact that only the US forces from CMBS would carry over it would be best served as CM: Land of the Morning Sun or something.  

[exsonic01]

This might be interesting. DPRK army would be depicted as cheap but swarming army concept. Not sure about PLA but PLA might be upgraded version of DPRK army or slight downgraded version of Russian Army. DPRK army tends to rely on tons of arty shells, and 1/4 of them are expected to be chemicals. Their arties are old, but massive in number, both MLRS and Howitzers. Also they favors shock infantry, light infantry / special forces to make "crack" on the line, as well as operate them behind the line to confuse the enemy. I could think of factions as DPRK, China, RoK, and US. Very interesting match up IMO.

 

But I don't know how BFC thinks about far-east Asian conflict in selling point of view. Also, units and terrain are very different, so I agree that this should be titled as new CM series, not an expansion.

[WriterJWA]

Not sure that would fit CMBS. Combat Mission Black Sea with an expansion up in korea wouldn't make much sense. The setting is very interesting, that's for sure, but would be more suited for a dedicated title rather than an expansion

 

Agreed, it should be billed as a new title. I'd love to run a light infantry campaign in that environment. It'd be tough, but entertaining.

[db_zero]

I've brought this up in the past on a few occasions and sounds like there is little if any interest on BFs part to do Asia.

Best hope is someone makes a mod like Shock Force was modded.

Also with other projects in the works and the small workforce, even if there were interest on BFs part it would be years before you saw anything covering Asia.

You'll probably see an updated Shock Force before Asia and even that is a long ways out IMO. We'll probably be at war with Iran before SF gets updated!

[Djiaux]

I hope they make something like that but not as a CMBS module, CMBS can have loads of content for modules, a new CM series focusing on US army, chinese army and maybe both korean armies would be better.

 

As said, given the small workforce I think our best hope is something like CM Afghanistan to happen.

 

 

Not that I complain a lot, a WW3 CM has been developed at last (CMBS) horray! With this I can wait for other series.

 

North Korean army vs South Korean army, hehe, nice, but look, I'm fighting Rus Vs Ucr, that is way better : )

[Harry Speakup]

Given the Battlefront crystal ball, if they announce a USMC vs Chinese in Taiwan, I'll expect the flashpoint IRL a few months later

[Kieme(ITA)]

Modding CMBS can be done, but we have constraints.

I have recently wondered about a "back to desert" mod. But what could we depict with the assets in game? Maybe palm trees and Others could be ported from the old CMSF, but what about the opposing force to the US Army? What nation in a desert environment could we represent with modern russian assets of the game?

 

Back to the topic: a North korea army mod would be very hard to achieve, not to mention South korea (can't mod ukrainian units into South korean).. we could manage something with the ground and buildings, but the combat units are the most difficult problem.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[mikeCK]

It's just so hard to figure out true NK capabilities. Yeah, they have tons of artillery, but do they have new ammo or are they relying on ammo made in 1955? Lots of tanks but do they have fuel for them? Are any of the optics maintained? What level of training do they receive? We can guess what a fully maintained and modernized t-72 can and cannot do...but what about a T-72 that hasn't been maintained for 10 years it has been made into a "frankentank" by replacing Soviet parts with Chinese parts

Dunno. I don't think numbers matter at this point. Between ROK forces and US forces on the ground and air along with a few carriers and Tomahawk equipped subs off the coast, the NK forces would be gutted quickly. I don't think the South is concerned about losing so much as they are concerned about losing Seoul...which would be a possibility; especially with chemical weapons...how does that get factored into CM scenarios

[WriterJWA]

Dunno. I don't think numbers matter at this point. Between ROK forces and US forces on the ground and air along with a few carriers and Tomahawk equipped subs off the coast, the NK forces would be gutted quickly. I don't think the South is concerned about losing so much as they are concerned about losing Seoul...which would be a possibility; especially with chemical weapons...how does that get factored into CM scenarios

I think that makes for a compelling reason to explore it. Capturing Seoul could mean a quick political victory for the North, regardless of their ability to hold on to their gains, so their operational planning would follow that model. The first few days/weeks would, likely, see NKPA columns hauling-ass en masse down the Yeoncheon/Uijeongbu/Seoul corridor as well as river crossings north of Paju. The volume of men and material, regardless of NKPA technology, would be incredibly taxing on the joint fires concepts. That first week would be a serious battle in center of the peninsula, at least until U.S. armored forces arrived ashore, which would take time. The 8th Army's first line of defense would be it's 2nd ID brigade, the 25th ID out of Hawaii, and whatever Marine units III MEF could muster up, which is all predominantly mechanized and light infantry. So.... from the US/ROK side, your role would be to use your limited force packages to delay the rapid NK tank rushes in order to make time for the heavy armored brigades to come online. From the NK side, your role would be to use speed and mass to break through US/ROK defenses before they can bring their air and artillery down on you. There are challenges to each side.

Edited March 19, 2015 by WriterJWA

[db_zero]

Keep in mind North Korea has a huge contingent of special forces troops that will be used in pre-emptive or first strikes on key installations, airfields and government buildings.

Many if not all are taken at childhood, indoctrinated and given special training.

Would make for some interesting battles, but like I said I Don't expect to ever see BF doing Asia.

[Codename Duchess]

The incorporation of China would make for the most interesting aspect. Those who assume they are still using human wave tactics would be in for a severe shock due to the recent and heavy modernization efforts done in both tactics and material recently. I would feel confident saying the Category A units of the PLA would give Russian forces a run for their money.

Seeing as the DPRK would be a lot like stock CMSF Syria, why not a Sino-Russo conflict instead? That would be a much more interesting dynamic.

[mikeCK]

Massing columns of armor racing down roadways would fit right into what the US does best. Both air dropped cluster weapons, cruise missiles, artillery and MLRS rockets carry warheads with submunitions designed to destroy concentrated armor. That was kind of what I am getting at...a CM campaign would be too one sided as the main "weapon" the north has is fear. Fear that they will shell the crap out of Seoul or use chemicals. Not that they could TAKE Seoul...but that they couldn't fix significant damage. I believe it's already in artillery range from the border

[womble]

Given its proximity to the border, I'd imagine the South's contingency planning would include provision for losing it. And then retaking it once the columns' supply lines have been cut.

 

Got any reliable sources for the info on those trained-from-infancy SF? Sound like the sort of force that a Dictator thinks is the bee's knees, but which is all ideology and no combat edge in the end. And they can't sabotage a CVN or an SSN. As has been said, massed attacks just run into a hail of iron and EFP.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

It's just so hard to figure out true NK capabilities. Yeah, they have tons of artillery, but do they have new ammo or are they relying on ammo made in 1955? Lots of tanks but do they have fuel for them? Are any of the optics maintained? What level of training do they receive? We can guess what a fully maintained and modernized t-72 can and cannot do...but what about a T-72 that hasn't been maintained for 10 years it has been made into a "frankentank" by replacing Soviet parts with Chinese parts

 

There's no T-72s in number to wonder about.  The DPRK is rumored to have maybe a company of them bought to steal ideas from, but the actual main tanks of the DPRK are all T-62 derivatives or T-55/Type 69 based.  It does get weird trying to figure out just what the various DPRK tanks are actually capable of.  It's doubtful to be good....but there's a wide range between "useless" and "less useless."

 

 

 

The 8th Army's first line of defense would be it's 2nd ID brigade, the 25th ID out of Hawaii, and whatever Marine units III MEF could muster up, which is all predominantly mechanized and light infantr

 

This is a bit of a skewed understanding of defending the ROK.  A lot has changed since 1950.  The main fighting of the war on the ground would be by the ROK itself, with the US military ground forces being an interesting footnote to be honest.  One Brigade doesn't mean as much when you're talking about working alongside a very large modern army.

 

In terms of the US:

 

1-2 ABCT is going away, and is being turned into a rotational position (under the new ABCT MTOE).   There's also an ABCT or so worth of prepo gear so flying in another ABCT, or making good some pretty serious losses is a go.  101 and 82nd IBCT type units would beat 25th ID to Korea, followed by 25th ID, and then likely 1st CAV's ship lifted units.  The Marines would show up when the Marines showed up, but give decent odds they'd be held in reserves for something like supporting a ROK seaborne attack.

 

 

 

Keep in mind North Korea has a huge contingent of special forces troops that will be used in pre-emptive or first strikes on key installations, airfields and government buildings. 

 

The threat may be overstated.  I won't say much more because maybe classified?   I'll imply heavily the actual capabilities, especially in terms of insertion do not match up with realities.  

 

Re: Invasion

 

The most likely scenario I saw was a limited DPRK attack to take Seoul as sort of an attempt at the largest hostage standoff in all time in order to secure concessions or forestall a DPRK total collapse.  Most of the Chinese stuff seemed to revolve around to the degree the Chinese would cooperate with a ROK attack across the DMZ.   

[Childress]

The most likely scenario I saw was a limited DPRK attack to take Seoul as sort of an attempt at the largest hostage standoff in all time in order to secure concessions or forestall a DPRK total collapse.  

 

Seoul, by all accounts, is a throbbingly vital, 1st world city possessing every amenity conceivable. As  a DRPK apparatchik I'd think twice before letting my troops get a glimpse of the place.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Seoul, by all accounts, is a throbbingly vital, 1st world city possessing every amenity conceivable. As  a DRPK apparatchik I'd think twice before letting my troops get a glimpse of the place.

 

Won't look so nice after they've had to go block to block against the ROK.  We're talking hightech Stalingrad with chemical weapons tossed in if that all goes down.  

[Childress]

Even half destroyed Seoul would make Pyonyang look like Pompeii post-Vesuvius. Only more oppressively sterile.The invading NK troops may also wonder why the South Koreans are several inches taller on average than their own citizens. On the other hand, the communist regimes can't feed their people but they're aces at indoctrination.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Even half destroyed Seoul would make Pyonyang look like Pompeii post-Vesuvius. Only more oppressively sterile.The invading NK troops may also wonder why the South Koreans are several inches taller on average than their own citizens. On the other hand, the communist regimes can't feed their people but they're aces at indoctrination.

 

There's actually a lot of evidence that the average DPRK citizen knows things are pretty jacked up/the ROK is actually the better place by far, just their ability to act on that information is about nil.  

[mikeCK]

I don't think a north Korean unit gets close to Seoul. The problem is how much destruction the north can inflict on seoul with artillery, rockets and chemical weapons. Just don't see how you could set up competitive scenarios for CM when it's conscript infantry trained in 1950's tactics (no outside contact or large scale training maneuvers and no officer exchange) using T-62 Tanks vs M1a2 Bradley's, ROK equipment, etc.

Maybe a Scenario where the U.S. and Australia intervene in a Chinese v Japanese armed conflict on some island

[danzig5]

My favorite photos to emerge from North Korea propaganda videos showing their power are as follows:

 

Its just like Kursk, only, well, higher definition.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

The problem is how much destruction the north can inflict on seoul with artillery, rockets and chemical weapons.

 

Not a lot actually.  There's a map out there somewhere showing the range rings, but there's only a small part of the DPRK artillery can fire from and reasonably hit a part of Seoul, but it's mostly the outskirts.  TBMs like Scuds would still be a problem, but the sea of fire thing is mostly a myth.  It'd be some bad mojo, but not quite catastrophic unless there's tanks in the streets.   

[tyrspawn]

I'd buy the game, but Battlefront would have to be Very Generous to make the DPRK dangerous in a conventional force on force fight.  Chinese forces could be interesting but the gap of information on what their "good" stuff can actually do is much worse than the information we have on Russian platforms. 

 

Agreed. The DPRK would get raped if they ever fought a NATO force - NATO air superiority would be immediate, thus leading to immediate paralyzation of the already scarce DPRK supply trains. It's depressing to think about. but I honestly think the DPRK army would starve to death within 3 weeks considering how they are already in a semi-starved state.

 

I think it would be a fun game only in the 1980s or before. Modern would be quite a slaughter fest.

Edited March 20, 2015 by tyrspawn