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Is it possible to do a CPU vs CPU battle?


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I would love to see the CPU battle itself out against one another. I was wondering if it was possible at all? If not, ever think about adding it? It would be like spectator mode and would be really nifty to watch and maybe gleam some hints and just overall watch cool automated battles.

 

Thanks :) 

 

PS: Hello everyone, I love you

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Well you could take a look at one of the maps with 1 red and 1 blue AI plan in the editor and then execute each AI plan in hotseat mode manuallly. I dont think it would be interesting, but that is probably the closest thing you can get to what you want.

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heyhellowhatsnew,

 

I always thought this would be useful, not as a spectator sport, but as an automated testing and debugging tool. This is as opposed to the grueling manual testing certain persistent inquisitive CMers do now. Theoretically, you could set up a situation and run hundreds of trials, preferably with yields of both raw output data and standard statistics, too. I envision this as being over on the Scenario Making side of things, rather than something the players would typically use.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

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heyhellowhatsnew,

 

I always thought this would be useful, not as a spectator sport, but as an automated testing and debugging tool. This is as opposed to the grueling manual testing certain persistent inquisitive CMers do now. Theoretically, you could set up a situation and run hundreds of trials, preferably with yields of both raw output data and standard statistics, too. I envision this as being over on the Scenario Making side of things, rather than something the players would typically use.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

 

CPU vs. CPU wouldn't help much because the biggest time factor in testing is recording results. You can actually run through iterations fairly quickly if you're in WeGo, using a savegame with sides and orders all pre-set.

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Back in CMSF days there was a feature called 'baked scenarios', I recall, where you could bake-in orders for both sides during scenario design... I think. Nobody can tell you much about it because nobody ever touched it. Except maybe one or two half-hearted attempts at a demonstration scenario. It didn't exactly live up to its billing and was dropped from the game engine.

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Different strokes for different folks. I think it would be really interesting to watch. I like spectating DOTA 2 matches. I like to spectate things when i'm doing things in general. I feel it would be a neat feature. *shrug*. If it doesn't take a lot of resources, why not add it?

Any resources diverted to this would be wasted. Really. Just think about how the AI plays, and ask if you'd want to watch the equivalent of two blind men fighting with bulldozers more than once.
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Any resources diverted to this would be wasted. Really. Just think about how the AI plays, and ask if you'd want to watch the equivalent of two blind men fighting with bulldozers more than once.

 

And these resources would be diverted towards something YOU want, because if it's not something YOU want, it's wasted.

 

I don't know why people are being so nasty about this. This community is supposed to be better than this.

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I don't think womble's comment was nasty - he explained why fairly well in his second sentence which boils down to the "would it be used more than about 5 times" test.

If a requested feature fails that test, the resources to develop it would probably be wasted, whether or not they are allocated to something he/I wants.

And for the reason he gives, I think that it would fail that test ( IMO ).

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I don't think womble's comment was nasty - he explained why fairly well in his second sentence which boils down to the "would it be used more than about 5 times" test.

If a requested feature fails that test, the resources to develop it would probably be wasted, whether or not they are allocated to something he/I wants.

And for the reason he gives, I think that it would fail that test ( IMO ).

 

I'll just quote this as it matches my position.

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I'll just quote this as it matches my position.

 

It would be used more than 5 times. Do you know how many people spectate DOTA-like? Or the latest games like Besiege and others on Steam that are pretty much legos and you place them and watch what happens? Before all the negative comments came to shoo and scare away the people who mentioned this feature, there was support. 

 

I know this is an old community that hates thinking of modern and new things; it's grognards. It's like convincing y'all electricity exists sometimes when you're like no no, candles are fine because you don't see the new and innovative things that are out there and you're all stuck in your caves and boxes going "nope, the world isn't changing and new things scare me, which is why I still have a 386 computer." and "Oh those wacky new kids with their new toys *rolls eyes* I like things the way they are, with polio still existing!"

 

You want to solicit new ideas and features from the community? Here it is. It's a feature that would be used a lot more than you think and it's insulting to assume "oh it would be used just 5 times or less." to people who would use it a lot when they're doing other things or have insomnia and watch them to fall asleep like I do with DOTA2 because some people have medical issues.

 

Also, if you think your AI is crappy enough that it would be "two blind men fighting with bulldozers", then your AI ain't that great and you should be focusing on the poor programming AI skills than insulting my idea.

Edited by heyhellowhatsnew
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If you want a test, use this test: I call it the Arthur Jensen test. It goes like this... 

 

 

You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. 

 

If you're an old man that thinks in terms of gaming features from the early 2000s and 1990s and refuse to innovate, then congrats, I just showed you the face of God.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkRDMil0bw

Edited by heyhellowhatsnew
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It would be used more than 5 times. Do you know how many people spectate DOTA-like? Or the latest games like Besiege and others on Steam that are pretty much legos and you place them and watch what happens? Before all the negative comments came to shoo and scare away the people who mentioned this feature, there was support.

Not in this thread there wasn't. You wanting it as a "spectator sport", and John thinking it might be useful for testing. There's a functional issue with the latter.

 

I know this is an old community that hates thinking of modern and new things...

Way to insult everyone here. Keep it up if you want everyone to gove your radical ideas due consideration. Oh, and it's not a radical idea. It's been suggested periodically since the advent of CMBN at least. Just because you thought of it and hadn't seen it discussed doesn't mean you're the first.

You want to solicit new ideas and features from the community? Here it is. It's a feature that would be used a lot more than you think and it's insulting to assume "oh it would be used just 5 times or less." to people who would use it a lot when they're doing other things or have insomnia and watch them to fall asleep like I do with DOTA2 because some people have medical issues.

So more people would buy the game just to run it untended? Really? Astonishing, the stupidity of people. There's infinite (for all practical purposes) quantity and variety of stuff to not really watch while you're doing something else out there on Teh IntraChoobs. Any human-driven playthrough on YouTube is going to be better than watching AIs slug it out. Well, almost any.

Also, if you think your AI is crappy enough that it would be "two blind men fighting with bulldozers", then your AI ain't that great and you should be focusing on the poor programming AI skills than insulting my idea.

Since you don't recognise the limitations of the AI, it's forgivable that you think putting in your idea should take precedence over improving the AI. When the AI becomes a more worthy and adaptable opponent, perhaps your idea might have some merit. At the moment, the limitations of the AI do pretty much make it like I said. The scripting of the plans needs upgrading to have proper branching, at the very least. The executive level of the AI needs to learn how to do fire and movement better, too, as well as better identify advantageous positions. None of these things is a trivial task, and they've all been brought up before. Not that BFC really needed our input on such basics, except to register that, as expected, we want more out of the AI than we're currently getting. You have to recognise the systematic limitations though. The terrain model is exceptionally detailed, and extremely hard for a machine to analyse in a CPU-supportable way: which declivity do you stop at before you decide your field of fire is the right length? What is the right length? How does a machine determine a keyhole position? Keyholed from where?

Also, it's not "my" AI. You're addressing the community here, and it's not "theirs" either. And if you think the AI is better than that, you've not played much against it. It's tolerable on the defense, but in an AI v AI game, one or both of them will be attacking, and whichever happens to be stationary, according to their plan at the time, when first contact is made, will start to gain the upper hand as it commits a turkey shoot on the one that's moving. That might flip-flop as the mover becomes stationary, and the static force gets an advance order (assuming the "running into the killsack" phase wasn't long enough to thoroughly break the moving force), or it might result in entire companies running out into the same field and shooting at each other in the open. Amusing, once or twice, but unsatisfying and samey after that. See, I have reasons for thinking it'd be a waste of time. It's not kneejerk: I've thought about it. And "Oh, but people like to watch crap," isn't a counter argument that works for me, and I don't expect it will work for BFC either. Sorry about that. By which I mean, "Sorry you're going to be disappointed that you are probably not going to see this until the AI is significantly better, and probably not even then."

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If you want a test, use this test: I call it the Arthur Jensen test. It goes like this... 

 

 

You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. 

 

If you're an old man that thinks in terms of gaming features from the early 2000s and 1990s and refuse to innovate, then congrats, I just showed you the face of God.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkRDMil0bw

 

There is a place, indeed, a necessity for younger men to seek to break out from the mould of inherited custom and wisdom, to dream and discover that which their parents could not. But it's helpful to recognize that any generation that does this in wholesale fashion without any concern that they might at the same time be throwing out gold along with dross, is doomed to have to painfully relearn many things they once thought foolish.

 

This idea that there are no nations and races, only holistic systems, though there is a large element of truth in it, is in the whole a bunch of baloney. If anything since the end of the Cold War there has been a resurgence of suppressed empire-building, nationalism and tribalism, a Balkanization that threatens the very foundations of any so-called global system or community. Humpty Dumpty may not yet have fallen, but one would be hard pressed to convince people these days that he is not in significant danger of doing so. And his shattering would (will?) be catastrophic, and a VERY hard lesson for those who thought that World Wars 1 and 2 were an aberration. 

 

The aphorism, "We get too soon old and too late smart!" may seem self-serving to the old, but it's amazing how young people, once they get older, look back on their youthful exhuberance (arrogance?) with both nostalgia, amusement, and sometimes even deep regret.

 

This has been a public service announcement on behalf of "old men."

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I'm 32 and I feel like the youngest one here where in regular gaming circles I am an old man. 

 

You can do all your "old man wisdom" crap, but honestly, this is about gaming and trying to educate people on new features that people actually like, because honestly you'd still be playing with 8bit hexes.

 

This is too stressful, I have Mulitple Sclerosis and stress makes my symptoms worse so just **** it. This isn't worth my time. I just posted an idea and all I got was hostile obnoxious responses.

Edited by heyhellowhatsnew
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... I just posted an idea and all I got was hostile obnoxious responses.

 

Well, this is where I disagree ( again ).

 

As the thread went, you initially posted your idea

 

- Thewood1 agreed it might be interesting, but that it had been suggested before and gained no traction.

- agusto suggested a way to try it, but didn't think it would be interesting.

- Womble didn't think it would be interesting, maybe only good for a laugh.

- John thought it might be useful for testing.

- Apocal responded to John on that point.

- MikeyD pointed out that there had been something akin to this in CMSF and that it had gained little support and had fallen from the game engine.

- womble thought it would be a waste of resources based on the AI limitations.

 

Then you got your dander up.

 

I submit that if you reread the thread you will see that there was nothing obnoxious or hostile ( unless disagreeing = hostile ). Most contrary positions were accompanied with a justification of some sort. Seemed like a fairly normal discussion.

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I'm 32 and I feel like the youngest one here where in regular gaming circles I am an old man. 

 

You can do all your "old man wisdom" crap, but honestly, this is about gaming and trying to educate people on new features that people actually like, because honestly you'd still be playing with 8bit hexes.

 

This is too stressful, I have Mulitple Sclerosis and stress makes my symptoms worse so just **** it. This isn't worth my time. I just posted an idea and all I got was hostile obnoxious responses.

 

I'm younger than you.

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helloheywhatsnew, according to several polls we had over the past couple of years, the average age of the community is approximately 40 years. Also this:

 

I'm 32 and I feel like the youngest one here where in regular gaming circles I am an old man. 

 

You can do all your "old man wisdom" crap, but honestly, this is about gaming and trying to educate people on new features that people actually like, because honestly you'd still be playing with 8bit hexes.

 

This is too stressful, I have Mulitple Sclerosis and stress makes my symptoms worse so just **** it. This isn't worth my time. I just posted an idea and all I got was hostile obnoxious responses.

 

is by far the most agressive and disrespectful comment anyone in this thread has made yet. It is disrespectful because it generally devalueates the opinions of all people older than you as crap and it incorrectly makes the generalized assumption that people older than you are incapable of keeping pace with technological developments. Furthermore you seem to confuse your own personal taste with knowledge, disproportionally even calling it "education" to tell people what you think they should like. I am genuinely sorry that you have MS, but trying to invoke pity in order to discourage people from stateing opinions that disagree with yours is quite a dishonourable and weak rethorical tactic.

 

 

There is no dynamic AI in this game, CPU vs. CPU has no meaning at all.

 

Basically that is why i dont think it would be interesting (or, with other words, not worth the effort it would take to implement the feature). You can just take a look at the AI plans in the editor if you want to how it works and reacts. But watching a scripted AI fight itself is really just like c3k said it: two blind men with bulldozers fighting eachother.

Edited by agusto
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