panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The Linebacker went away because it was the specialty ADA platform for armored units only. As we've moved to Stryker and light Brigades, it's easier to have one platform for all three Brigade types, than two platforms for different end users. The Avenger isn't optimal for Armored formations, but it is cheap enough for everyone to provide that absolute last little bit of air defense, assuming something made it through the few thousand US fighter platforms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The Linebacker went away because it was the specialty ADA platform for armored units only. As we've moved to Stryker and light Brigades, it's easier to have one platform for all three Brigade types, than two platforms for different end users. The Avenger isn't optimal for Armored formations, but it is cheap enough for everyone to provide that absolute last little bit of air defense, assuming something made it through the few thousand US fighter platforms. Maybe defence budget costs were also a consideration. As we previously discussed HMMVs lack armored protection which is obviously unhealthy in an armoured conat environmet. Perhaps an air defense version of Stryker might be a better answer now that Heavy Divisions include both Bradleys and Strykers. Probably Stryker is abourt as well armoured as a Bradley anyway so it would meat that criteria and would be able to keep up as the Bradley/Linebacker system could 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The only Strykers outside of the SBCT organization are the chemical warfare defense variety. They remain uncommon and basing an ADA vehicle on it without a significant new ADA weapon itself would be a colossal waste of time and money. Not to mention Strykers can't keep up with tanks and brads anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Probably Stryker is abourt as well armoured as a Bradley anyway... It's not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It's not. I have to chip in more as I'm no longer replying on my tablet. 1. Stryker is indeed, not as well armored as the Bradley. The later model hulls are better protected against mines, but against direct fire, especially with BRATS, the Bradley is much better protected. 2. In terms of mobility, again simply put, the Stryker does not handle off road movements well enough to regularly support tracked vehicle forces. The MGS doesn't like it, and the MGS is a good analog for a ADA Stryker (in terms of weapons/ammunition weight, which compares well with missiles-sensor-launchers). 3. In terms of weapons, there's no real ADA weapons system to mount on a platform that significantly improves US air defense. As far as "off the shelf" from US inventory: a. Stinger. Which is to say the Avenger. b. C-RAM. Massive. Heavy. Right now they fit on a large trailer, and that's about it. A smaller, similar system would be cool in terms of downing long range missiles or something, but that'd be a totally different weapon system. Also the 20 MM round doesn't have the sort of range to knock out...uh, pretty much any manned threat c. PATRIOT. Duh There's other western ADA systems that are available, but if we're talking austerity, licensing missiles and other systems is expensive. Right now, Avenger isn't perfect, but it has the key advantage of being already purchased, and working broadly for most formations (everyone has HMMWVs, it fits on all lift platforms). And until there's some new sort of ADA system comes along to be worth the effort to build a platform for, there's not really a reason to spend the millions on a new AAA or SAM carrier for a marginal increase in performance. Until there's an ADA platform that'll deal well with stand-off manned systems, or really work around the million dollar missile vs the thousand dollar drone issue, there's not a point to strapping the finest in late 80's-90's technology on a vehicle and buying them by the thousands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 There is a real need for a laser based weapon system that swat small drones right out too the horizon, and swat them very quickly if they try to close. The air force can handle the Global Hawk sized stuff. But their are intelligent people on the other side who have seen the specs for things like the switchblade drone/missile and concluded it is a a lot cheaper and easier to copy than any of the bigger systems. Look at the recent incident at the White House. If you resisted mission creep and built it to do this one thing I think it would be doable with current, or very near term tech. http://www.telepresenceoptions.com/2012/06/pentagon_to_soon_deploy_pint-s/ 50 0f theses things at once would present a real problem, and fit on a truck or two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lasers. Capacitor discharge solid state lasers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Marines...with freaking lasers. http://www.industrytap.com/gbad-marines-laser-weapon-drone-killer/22362 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (Real world) Bradley 25mm gun is capable of high angle fire. RWS .50 cal is capable of high angle fire. But it appears nobody in the Pentagon is much interested in practicing-up on our low-tech drone-hunting techniques. Besides, how many gunnery ranges in Europe will allow you to fire your 25m chain gun at a 50 degree angle and watch the rounds simply disappear into space? This looks like a good place to introduce a virtual simulator. If you can't unload you're RWS .50 cal at a passing drone aircraft maybe you can virtually fire on a virtual passing drone to get in some virtual practice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Marines...with freaking lasers. http://www.industrytap.com/gbad-marines-laser-weapon-drone-killer/22362 Yut. Just can't wait until a young Lance Corporal gets behind that! Laser beams of Freedom! Edited March 4, 2015 by Imperial Grunt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Marines...with freaking lasers. http://www.industrytap.com/gbad-marines-laser-weapon-drone-killer/22362 ...on their heads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (Real world) Bradley 25mm gun is capable of high angle fire. RWS .50 cal is capable of high angle fire. But it appears nobody in the Pentagon is much interested in practicing-up on our low-tech drone-hunting techniques. Besides, how many gunnery ranges in Europe will allow you to fire your 25m chain gun at a 50 degree angle and watch the rounds simply disappear into space? This looks like a good place to introduce a virtual simulator. If you can't unload you're RWS .50 cal at a passing drone aircraft maybe you can virtually fire on a virtual passing drone to get in some virtual practice. Most of the ADA stuff is done over bodies of water for precisely that reason, that when you start looking at just how far a round travels, there's no really practical range that you can keep safe and clear for those sort of operations. In terms of simulator, helicopters are part of the simulator-side of both M1A2 SEP V2 and M2A3 gunnery (which is usually part of the train-up). So that much is already done/available. In terms of dealing with drones, given the size of the target, mobility, and likely the range it's going to be a hard thing to hit. That's really why the laser is such a big deal, it's a nice stabilized thingy that isn't totally obvious when it's in operation. The best "react to drone" drill is to simply stay in concealment and hope it doesnt' see you, because there's a chance it'll miss you if you're hiding, but there's zero chance it'll miss you if you're doing Iron Sky or whatever they call the drill for "EVERYONE SHOOT UP!" Just can't wait until a young Lance Corporal gets behind that! I can't wait for the safety briefing for said laser after the USMC LCPL or US Army SPC gets behind the controls. It'll take months to complete. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Most of the ADA stuff is done over bodies of water for precisely that reason, that when you start looking at just how far a round travels, there's no really practical range that you can keep safe and clear for those sort of operations. In terms of simulator, helicopters are part of the simulator-side of both M1A2 SEP V2 and M2A3 gunnery (which is usually part of the train-up). So that much is already done/available. In terms of dealing with drones, given the size of the target, mobility, and likely the range it's going to be a hard thing to hit. That's really why the laser is such a big deal, it's a nice stabilized thingy that isn't totally obvious when it's in operation. The best "react to drone" drill is to simply stay in concealment and hope it doesnt' see you, because there's a chance it'll miss you if you're hiding, but there's zero chance it'll miss you if you're doing Iron Sky or whatever they call the drill for "EVERYONE SHOOT UP!" I can't wait for the safety briefing for said laser after the USMC LCPL or US Army SPC gets behind the controls. It'll take months to complete. You know the concept of a warrant officer was invented for a reason. Because some jobs are just too complicated and or important to give to a corporal, yet don't really involve command of other troops. This might be one of those jobs. Maybe before the fiasco, probably afterwards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Eeeeeh. Not quite. Generally to get to Warrant Officer you still need to have succeeded as an NCO. If we're serious about the "expert without leadership" bringing back the old Spec 4-9 or whatever seems like a better choice* *Seriously. I've seen some amazing mechanics that stayed in the Army to become terrible Sergeants. For technical fields, up or out is not the optimal model. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 In terms of dealing with drones, given the size of the target, mobility, and likely the range it's going to be a hard thing to hit. What I am going to say next is so obvious that I have to assume that it has already been discussed (and probably rejected) by responsible parties. But my thought is that to shoot down birds, what you need is a shotgun. My next thought is that it would have to be something like a Beehive round to be able to reach out to the locale where the drone is hanging out before ejecting its shot. So the next question is what do you fire it from? Building a whole new weapons system for it sounds like another of those multi-billiion dollar boondoggles that the Pentagon loves so dearly. So I guess it might be a plausible basic idea whose time will never come. Just thinking out loud here, folks. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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