US soldiers act like cowards ingame

[Kraft]

What has the TacAI to do with acting like a coward. Just buy units with a higher morale and experience, now they panic less and deal with suppression better.

[MikeyD]

I have a VERY distant (perhaps faulty) memory of the film 'Full Metal Jacket' (haven't seen the film in years) where the drill instructor brings up the topic of John Wayne-style war movie heroics as an example of what NOT to do in combat, that following Wayne's example is a sure way to get yourself killed. Or maybe it was another 'tough DI instructs green recruits' film that I'm thinking about. There have been lots of 'em and they kind'a all look the same after awhile.

[Pablius]

I´m not going to argue what is more realistic, but I confess that sometimes it angers me when troops hit the ground  and stay put waiting to die and not even crawl away or try to shoot back...or shoot at all for that matter

 

Maybe that`s what happens most of the time in combat, I have no way to know, but it is somewhat frustrating to see them cower and just wait for the next bullet

[nsKb]

Maybe I'm wrong but the US soldiers in CMBS seem more likely to cower and less likely to return fire than they did CMSF. I don't know which behavior is more realistic. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by nsKb

[Pablius]

Maybe I'm wrong but the US soldiers in CMBS seem more likely to cower and less likely to return fire than they did CMSF. I don't know which behavior is more realistic. 

 

Yes, that´s my impression too, but honestly it´s been many years since I played CMSF and maybe it´s just my memory playing tricks, so I can´t say for certain

 

I can only say that I don´t remember to feel this way about this topic back then, nor I remember US troops being super soldiers either

[exsonic01]

Regardless of ethnicity or nationalty, usually most of soldiers are cowards. It needs great courage and strength (mental and physical) to stand and run, or just heads up above the ditches, when you know the bullets are coming to your way. What I mean "great" is not just a word, more close to superhuman-like thing. If that bullets are more bigger than 12mm, I can pretty much guarantee that most of soldiers (even for well trained veterans) will just try to hide and cover, and can't do anything useful. Well trained, highly motivated combat veterans might do a reaction to such suppression fire, but still, they will feel hard to do something useful.

Remember, you are playing game. In real life, one single unlucky ricochet could take your life away, or at least ruins your life, looking like Dr Hawking. (Im chemistry major and no ill intentions regarding Dr Hawking) 12.5mm bullet can literatually "explode" any human with single direct hit. No one can simply just stand and do what they need to do, even under a couple of ak74 5.45mm fires. Don't even need AKMs or PKMs. No exception for US soldiers.

You can ignore all of them because you can simply save n load. But there are no save n reload in real life, and one unlucky ricochet can lead you to meet your creator. As the game try to simulate all possible aspects of warfare as much as it can, I could understand why CM soldiers look like cowards, and I like this point when compare to wargame series.

Edited March 1, 2015 by exsonic01

[Kieme(ITA)]

Id didn't notice any particular or different reaction of US soldiers compared to UA and Russians.

[Pablius]

No, I don´t see a difference between US and Russian soldiers either, and I don't see a problem with soldiers hitting the ground instead of being suicidal running towards gunfire

 

It`s just frustrating to see them just freeze and do nothing sometimes, you would think that eventually someone would fire in the general direction of incoming fire, even if ineffective or at least take cover

 

But I don't know which option is more realistic, I don't know if the chances of survival are better one way or the other or what are squad leaders supposed to do in such situations, given it would fall to them to overcome the very natural survival instincts of their soldiers

 

Maybe it is better to stay put but on the other hand, you have a job to do and the only way to do it is fighting back, or at least move to cover and think again

[Pelican Pal]

I have noticed that all troops seem to cower more than in the WW2 titles and CM:SF.

 

Its odd though. They seem to cower quite a lot at the beginning of an engagement before any targets are spotted (even from relatively great distance from fire). However, once they spot and enemy and join the fighting the cower much less. Even as the total amount of firepower used increases.

[Wiggum15]

Just watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJd46D90U20#t=13m07s

 

A US team is ordered to get out of a IFV and into a building, they get out and take fire from the north.

Instead of running the last few meters into the building they get pinned and stop still on the road...in perfect LOS of the enemy fire.

They stay there and if the player did not order them again into the building they would most likely died there.

 

Thats the behavior thats so annoying and is responsible for at least 50% of my casualties, instead of

a ) just follow the order for 2sec more and make it into the building or

b ) hit the ground and change the Quick waypoint into slow and crawl into cover

 

...they drop to the ground in the most stupid and deadliest spot and stay there awaiting death !

 

Anyway it may be no specific US problem.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Wiggum15

[Skwabie]

yep don't trust the AI. I play real time so any AI stupidity is dealt with in a timely fashion. Also I usually set my troops to high soft stats just so that their pixelbrain don't go bloopers after a few bullets whizz by.

 

"Listen to commander Skwabie and everything will be fine." Such is that my (v)propaganda machine constantly broadcasting to the pixeltruppens........

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Just watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJd46D90U20#t=13m07s

 

A US team is ordered to get out of a IFV and into a building, they get out and take fire from the north.

Instead of running the last few meters into the building they get pinned and stop still on the road...in perfect LOS of the enemy fire.

They stay there and if the player did not order them again into the building they would most likely died there.

 

Thats the behavior thats so annoying and is responsible for at least 50% of my casualties, instead of

a ) just follow the order for 2sec more and make it into the building or

b ) hit the ground and change the Quick waypoint into slow and crawl into cover

 

...they drop to the ground in the most stupid and deadliest spot and stay there awaiting death !

 

Anyway it may be no specific US problem.

 

What part of this video are we supposed to be looking at. Not all of us have almost an hour to look at it.

 

And, as I think people have explained before, people who panic don't do the sensible, logcal thing. Sometimes they freeze like a rabbit in the headlights of your car. Sometimes they will blaze away in the general direction of enemy fire. Sometimes they just run. 

 

The point is, when your troops panic they are no longer under your control and will follow survival instincts which means getting away from the immediate danger. But they won't consider the danger they might be putting themselves in to as they try to escape. Often people die in disasters due to a mass panic

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norman-atlantic-ferry-fire-two-british-men-still-not-rescued-from-burning-italian-ship-9947674.html

 

I have actually been in a situation like this. Some years ago the shop on the ground floor of the property next door had a fire during the night and both residential properties hd to be evacuated. I told the fireman I would take responsibility for escorting a young lady from next door toa safe place (so he could get on with his real job of fighting the fire. She was in hystwerics about her boyfriend who was still in the building. I instantly recognised she was about to panic and , if she did, that would endanger everyone as she might do something stupid. Fortunately I was able t assert frm cobntrol of the situation quickly to prevent this situation. Not that I was thinking this through logically - I also was goingg on instinct. I guess some people can stay calm in a crisis and will instinctively d the right things, others won't. And the latter can get people killed.  

Edited March 1, 2015 by LUCASWILLEN05

[kulik]

Maybe the game should check cover values for the tile on which the men under fire are, value of cover for tile were they are ordered to go, and distance they need to reach it.

[Wiggum15]

@ LUCASWILLEN05

Just open the link and watch the next few minutes.

And the guys in the video did not panic, they just got under fire and were suppressed shortly, they canceled the WP and did not attempt to crawl into cover, they stayed in the middle of the street, someone even crawled back into the hot zone.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Wiggum15

[LUCASWILLEN05]

yep don't trust the AI. I play real time so any AI stupidity is dealt with in a timely fashion. Also I usually set my troops to high soft stats just so that their pixelbrain don't go bloopers after a few bullets whizz by.

 

"Listen to commander Skwabie and everything will be fine." Such is that my (v)propaganda machine constantly broadcasting to the pixeltruppens........

 

Which represents well trained, experienced and well motivated soldiers. No all soldiers are that well trained, led, or motivated. If I want lower quality troops I will set experience, morale and probably leadership lower. Tired veterans who have simply seen too much experience level still good but low motivation.  Demoralised raw troops will be low on both experience and motivation - and leadership will likely be poor as well. Those troop quality ratings can be quite significant.

[Kraft]

If Krause had used the evade command his units would've ignored incoming fire and made it into the building. 

I can also recall not many turns ago from one of my pbem where one of my units got shot at in the open and changed the move command to a fast command on its own and got into the safe forest without casulties, only looking at one side and claiming everything is broken is just ignorant and self discrediting.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Kraft

[Skwabie]

Which represents well trained, experienced and well motivated soldiers. No all soldiers are that well trained, led, or motivated. If I want lower quality troops I will set experience, morale and probably leadership lower. Tired veterans who have simply seen too much experience level still good but low motivation.  Demoralised raw troops will be low on both experience and motivation - and leadership will likely be poor as well. Those troop quality ratings can be quite significant.

Yeah I actually understand your side's POV. But guess it comes to my main gripe which is the lack of an operations layer and I can't convince myself that these troops are tired just because the scenario author says so. They should be tired because they've seen previous battles or, there needs to be a higher level of context within the game.

 

Of course this probably is just different player preference. Most I reckon are immersing in the Rus v UKR+Nato story nowadays which I do understand. And one can tell whatever story to oneself or believe what the briefing says at scenario start. For me though it just seems too ... artificial.(?)

[Zveroboy1]

Yes it is called being pinned down or suppressed. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

 

Humans don't particularly like being shot at and tend to freeze when under fire. It causes both physical and psychological effects like heart pounding, limbs shaking uncontrollably, the inability to think clearly; a primal fear that training can alleviate partially but not completely squash. So yes your men will sometimes freeze, this is a perfectly normal behavior, it is not a bug or anything.

 

But really you're complaining when your pixel troops panic and move on their own randomly but you also complain when they don't move and stay put?

[Wiggum15]

The problem is they freeze way to quick and are not smart enough to crawl into the next available cover or return fire fast enough.

 

But really you're complaining when your pixel troops panic and move on their own randomly but you also complain when they don't move and stay put?

They should alter the WP (Run -> Crawl or Move -> Fast), maybe add a pause but not completely cancel it and stay in a death trap.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Wiggum15

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Yeah I actually understand your side's POV. But guess it comes to my main gripe which is the lack of an operations layer and I can't convince myself that these troops are tired just because the scenario author says so. They should be tired because they've seen previous battles or, there needs to be a higher level of context within the game.

 

Of course this probably is just different player preference. Most I reckon are immersing in the Rus v UKR+Nato story nowadays which I do understand. And one can tell whatever story to oneself or believe what the briefing says at scenario start. For me though it just seems too ... artificial.(?)

Yeah, nothing we can do about that  it really is up to the scenario author to decide on these issues. If he says that certain units are exausted, have low moral or poor leadership (No 2 plaltoon B Company has a 2nd Lieutenant in hs first command after finishing West Point or whatever) ht is just he way of it. We can do the same thng whebn rating units for a tabletop miniatures game,

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Yes it is called being pinned down or suppressed. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

 

Humans don't particularly like being shot at and tend to freeze when under fire. It causes both physical and psychological effects like heart pounding, limbs shaking uncontrollably, the inability to think clearly; a primal fear that training can alleviate partially but not completely squash. So yes your men will sometimes freeze, this is a perfectly normal behavior, it is not a bug or anything.

 

But really you're complaining when your pixel troops panic and move on their own randomly but you also complain when they don't move and stay put?

 He is just not happy with the morale system (maybe he does not even understand how it works)

[Djiaux]

I just finished the first mission of the US army campaign, my soldiers sustained about 2 casualties by platoon, many were lightly wounded and during the scenario they where under artillery, tank and BMP fire (not everything the same squad obviously). They are the real killers in this scenario, they killed 5 tanks, two BMPs and some soldiers, many of these kills in close cuarters and under fire, just like in CMSF, my vehicles may fail but my US foot soldiers never fail.

 

They don't behave like cowards under no circunstances, they are though nail-chewing people, if you put them in the open against a well covered enemy platoon this may change, OFC, I don't think thats unreallistic.

 

(Little spoiler from here on)

 

BTW my Abrams did much worse than I expected in this mission, the T-72 (what will happen agains T-90?!?!?!?!?) where able to spot faster and shoot first. Even when on of my Abrams spotted a T-72 first on one of those duels the T-72 shooted first disabling his gun and giving me a very expensive Vickers tank >: ( bad luck? Cause I had some of it in this mission.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Djiaux

[LUCASWILLEN05]

@ LUCASWILLEN05

Just open the link and watch the next few minutes.

And the guys in the video did not panic, they just got under fire and were suppressed shortly, they canceled the WP and did not attempt to crawl into cover, they stayed in the middle of the street, someone even crawled back into the hot zone.

If it was that command section just behind the Bradley you might have noticed that they had quite a lot of suppression as can be seen n the lttle triangle at the bottom left hand corner of the screen. If suppressin is on the high side units are not so willing to move. Whch might explain the way they behaved. Once they recovered from the shock as can be seen later on (that triangle's colour changes s suppression levels change) the unit was more willing to do what you wanted them to do (i.e. take cover in that house)

[Wiggum15]

The problem is they instantly cancel the WP and not resume.

If they get pinned after 5sec they will cancel the WP and stay in a very bad spot even if they are no longer suppressed after 30sec, they will not use the remaining 30sec to dash into the cover of the building. It would be much better if the WP would be put on Hold and not just canceled.

[Kraft]

That might actually be doable Dev wise with the pause command instead of cancel