Armata soon to be in service.

[antaress73]

Catherine XP is produce under license in Russia.

How good is it compared to Catherine FC or the sensors on an M1A2 ? Any indications they may use it not only for Armata but for the t-90AM upgrade they are doing ? C;ould be interesting as a vehicule upgrade for the T-90AM in the game . Edited September 8, 2015 by antaress73

[L0ckAndL0ad]

How good is it compared to Catherine FC or the sensors on an M1A2 ? Any indications they may use it not only for Armata but for the t-90AM upgrade they are doing ? C;ould be interesting as a vehicule upgrade for the T-90AM in the game .

 

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/catherinefc_uk_071005.pdf

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/catherinexp_uk_071005.pdf

[Stagler]

Steve.

You don't remember the "I doubt we will see a prototype before 2018 posts?" from some posters on the forum. I didn't mention it coming into service or numbers at all, you simply bolted that onto your reply there like some kind of rebuke.

Don't be a chopper.

[LukeFF]

Ahh, that picture of the T-14 firing sure does make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside - especially remembering all the doomsaying on this thread and on the other 100+ page thread about the platform.

 

Oh, stuff it already.

[Battlefront.com]

Steve.

You don't remember the "I doubt we will see a prototype before 2018 posts?" from some posters on the forum.

No, I remember "I doubt we will see a production sample before 2018" posts. I also remember you boxing with shadows ahead of the parade debut.

I didn't mention it coming into service or numbers at all, you simply bolted that onto your reply there like some kind of rebuke.

Because it was. Your comment was intended to draw out a response, so I gave you one.

Don't be a chopper.

And don't test my patience. Your fanboi persona isn't endearing.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Oooo... I actually had to hit the Googles to find out what the UK meaning of "chopper" is. Worse than I expected.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chopper&defid=5762525

Which is why Stagler is taking a vacation for 2 weeks. I put up with a lot of crap, but even I have my limits. By all rights I should make it permanent. Especially someone who calls himself "Battlefront's resident troll". However, I don't like resorting to a permanent ban if at all possible. I'd prefer to make that Stagler's choice.

Steve

[sburke]

Wow so that is what they have been calling me when I visit the UK office, bastards!  And then making me eat those back bacon sandwiches......

 

I have to say I liked this one better - sure you never took 3 months off to go to Thailand?

 

Chopper

A middle class male who fits most, if not all of the following criteria. Not to be confused with a rah.
He has floppy shoulder length, usually blond hair.
He visited South East Asia for his gap year, but he doesnt call it a gap year he calls it "travelling". What he actually means is he got ****faced with other choppers for 3 months, all the time posing with the the poor local children for a host of Facebook profile pictures.
He is paid through university by his family and finds it strange that not everyone gets the same deal.
His year round attire is a pastel coloured polo shirt, three quarter length beige shorts and flip flops.
He drives a Mini.
After finishing his degree in Business Studies or Management he will get a job working for his dad's company.
He has a tattoo on his arm (often from his "travels") that he considers to be meaningful. It shows his creative side. It says "TWAT" in Vietnamese.

Look at that guy at the bar, he's a complete chopper.

Fredo: I just got back from Thailand. It was amazing, the people there have it so hard. I helped them build a hospital while I was there.
Davey: Mate, you are such a chopper.

Fredo: Do you like my new tattoo? It's my girlfriend's name in Hindi.
Davey: Mate, you are a complete and utter chopper.

[Kieme(ITA)]

We live in an age where there are lots of digital cameras, cellphones,internet etc. but I still find quite hard to accept that so many pictures and videos are coming out for a very new tank that maybe few decades ago would have been covered by more secrecy, am I just a son of the cold war?

[L0ckAndL0ad]

TVZvezda's vids are intentionally low-res, IMO. At the same time, not everyone's got an iPhone around here.

 

While we're at it, BMP-3 modifications from RAE-2015:

 

BMP-3 "Derivaciya" with an unmanned 57mm AU-220M module.

 

 

BMP-3 "Dragoon", with frontal 800hp engine

 

 

Still thin. These are manufacturer's initiatives, not MoD's, just so you know.

[John Kettler]

LOckAndLOad,

 

The Kurganets episode is a most impressive video--with what has to be the strangest inclusion ever on a weapon system doc, that carriage toilet and its carryover into the K's design! I read the security marking not as CLASSIFIED, but as SEKRETNO, SECRET. My computer isn't cooperating on the link, but there is a Wiki on Information Classification in the Russia. I'm of the firm opinion the initial definition of SEKRETNO there is wrong (where it calls SEKRETNO equivalent to US CONFIDENTIAL), so am going with the more defensible second set in the piece. Great to see the (sadly blurry) long shot of the T-14 firing, but I find the 57-mm armed BMP-3 downright fascinating. During the Cold War there was a fair amount of discussion on where IFV armament needed to go, and there was a push from the FRG to begin investigating the 57 mm as a weapon with the ability to destroy APC and IFVs with ease, while providing considerable capability vs infantry targets and defenses, as well as air defense capability via proximity fuzed HE. It was for a new Marder design called the Begleit Panzer (Escort Panzer) and was intended to support tanks.

 

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34055&page=385

 

I look forward to seeing more and better material on the T-14 Armata.

 

Kieme(ITA)

 

Rest assured. You are not the only one who finds this explosion of material on the latest Russian AFVs to be more than a bit sure. My read? This is about both showing Russian military capabilities and simultaneously conducting truly attention getting defense marketing. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited September 9, 2015 by John Kettler

[L0ckAndL0ad]

Here's better pic of "Derivative" BMP-3.

 

Initially, it was said (by manufacturer's CEO) that this module will be installed on Kurganets chassis (or was it Armata IFV? Can't remember now). Either way, apparently, MoD isn't interested, and they went for pushing it for export. I kinda get why MoD isn't interested. They're following the original plan.

 

 

It started with "Berezhok" turret (used on BMP-2M/BMD-2M). Lotsa same tech is used on today's version of what I call "early Epoch module", that's currently installed on Kurg-25 IFV and Armata T-15 IFV. The plan for 2020 is to upgrade it further with better stuff, particularly new autocannon. Last I heard they were going for telescopic 40mm. Why? 57mm can't do tanks, you still need ATGMs. 57mm+ ATGM launchers might be too big. So 40 is as big as it gets.

 

ADDED:

 

Oh. Some say that BMP-3 "Dragoon" has an unmanned turret (with the same 100mm+30mm weapons). Wonder how it's done.

Edited September 9, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad

[L0ckAndL0ad]

Armata episode teasers keep coming. Touch screens.

 

 

Is that a target recognition like you have face recognition on phones and cameras? Gotta be target locator.

Edited September 9, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad

[akd]

You mean the boxes that show up in the thermal view? Looks like zoom preview.

[Battlefront.com]

We live in an age where there are lots of digital cameras, cellphones,internet etc. but I still find quite hard to accept that so many pictures and videos are coming out for a very new tank that maybe few decades ago would have been covered by more secrecy, am I just a son of the cold war?

 

The Soviet Union used to parade it's newest stuff around a ton for propaganda reasons. Prove to the masses how great and powerful the nation is. IS-3 is the first one I can remember them doing that with post war, but they did it before the war as well. Same thing with these vehicles for the modern Russian state, just more thorough and quick. The intent of intimidating/impressing both foreign and local populations is identical.

 

Initially, it was said (by manufacturer's CEO) that this module will be installed on Kurganets chassis (or was it Armata IFV? Can't remember now). Either way, apparently, MoD isn't interested, and they went for pushing it for export. I kinda get why MoD isn't interested. They're following the original plan.

Thanks for keeping the tread on topic!

Yeah, manufacturer's claims (no matter what the nationality) have to be taken with a huge fist full of salt. If a 2nd LT calls up from the motor pool of some backwaters base and asks a company for some specs on something that is sufficient for the company to put on their website that the system has "active interest from the military with possible future acquisition"

 

 

It started with "Berezhok" turret (used on BMP-2M/BMD-2M). Lotsa same tech is used on today's version of what I call "early Epoch module", that's currently installed on Kurg-25 IFV and Armata T-15 IFV. The plan for 2020 is to upgrade it further with better stuff, particularly new autocannon. Last I heard they were going for telescopic 40mm. Why? 57mm can't do tanks, you still need ATGMs. 57mm+ ATGM launchers might be too big. So 40 is as big as it gets.

This is definitely an example where bigger isn't necessarily better. It's the same argument against upgrading the Stryker to anything more than the .50cal. The argument (part of it anyway) is that to get any significant practical increase in lethality the weapon has to be bumped up so much that it undermines the value/purpose of the vehicle itself. Half measures are both expensive and a trade off for something, so why do it?

 

Oh. Some say that BMP-3 "Dragoon" has an unmanned turret (with the same 100mm+30mm weapons). Wonder how it's done.

 

The 30mm is basically "unmanned" already as it is belt fed. That would be the easy part. Having an auto loaded 100m gun with a vehicle of that size/weight, now that's the tricky part. Also has a probable impact on crew positions, which is interesting to contemplate since the BMP-3's internal layout is not all that great to begin with.

 

Is that a target recognition like you have face recognition on phones and cameras? Gotta be target locator.

Hmm. I would think a touch screen would be impractical for a vehicle moving around in tough terrain. I can also foresee practical issues coming from battlefield conditions (grease, dirt, impact damage, etc.). Anybody know of other combat vehicles with touch screen interfaces?

I don't know how practical shape recognition alone would be for target identification. That's a pretty dicey thing given the speeds in which the target's shape changes when any sort of motion is involved, obscuring features, etc. The LRASS3 system, used by US forces, involves keying off of heat signatures as far as I know.

Steve

[akd]

The 100mm on BMP-3 is auto-loaded.

[Sublime]

yeah Steve i thought the same thing about touch screens. Bumping around and filthy hands wouldnt probably be good for touch screens. I know with my cellphone even having mildly sweaty hands or sometimes a raindrop on a different part of the screen will render it inoperable. Of course im sure the Russian touch screen would be more robust than my android cell phone however its going into uncharted territory ..

[L0ckAndL0ad]

You mean the boxes that show up in the thermal view? Looks like zoom preview.

 

Nah, there are brackets (in the corners) for that. Solid frame seems to be dynamic, hence I get a strong deja vu with face recognition behavior. The reason why I brought it up is because since BMP-2M with Berezhok, I've heard quite a lot about target locator/tracker, but haven't yet seen it in action. So that's the explanation to what I'm seeing.

 

Operator is filming from driver's position. Then there are 4 monitors, 2 for the gunner, 2 for the TC. Gunner's monitor UI reads out: smaller font gives many digits, probably coordinates. Bigger font says "K" = cumulative ammo, "80" - distance, "ОСН" - "main" (ie main gun). Later followed by "ГОТ" = ready to fire. Second monitor from the left shows different ammo count in the loader, by types. Initially it has 1 "K" (cumulative round), which turns into 0 after it's loaded. Overall types are "Б" (AP), "O" (HE), K (cumulative = HEAT?), "У" (Training, maybe? I dunno. Nothing else comes to mind really), "C" = coax. Commander's displays show gunner's feed and something I can't understand what it is.

 

More from RAE-2015.

 

BMP-3 "Dragoon" with unmanned 100+30 turret. Looks surprisingly infantry-friendly:

 

 

More here: http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-13385.htm

 

Inside BMP-3 "Derivaciya" (57mm unmanned). I was expecting far less space.

 

Edited September 9, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad

[Battlefront.com]

The 100mm on BMP-3 is auto-loaded.

 

Damn my fingers! Brain distinctly instructed them to type "unmanned". That's my story and I'm sticking too it. Anyway, my point is that the BMP-3's turret is largely automated anyway so it's just a matter of having the room and the budget for all that is required to make it unmanned. And LnL's follow up post provides some info on that...

 

Nah, there are brackets (in the corners) for that. Solid frame seems to be dynamic, hence I get a strong deja vu with face recognition behavior. The reason why I brought it up is because since BMP-2M with Berezhok, I've heard quite a lot about target locator/tracker, but haven't yet seen it in action. So that's the explanation to what I'm seeing.

Could be indicating strength of tracking lock?

 

BMP-3 "Dragoon" with unmanned 100+30 turret. Looks surprisingly infantry-friendly:

...

 

Inside BMP-3 "Derivaciya" (57mm unmanned). I was expecting far less space.

I had exactly the same two thoughts when I saw your pictures. It looks a bit tight to hot swap crew with passengers, but I suppose there's not a lot of practical value in that any more. If the weapon system goes down then moving crew doesn't matter. If the driver is injured, there's a pretty fair chance that is also not going to be fixed by swapping out a crew member. At least not in a situation where seconds matter. For other situations there would be time to extract the crew member from their own hatches and plop someone new in his place.

BTW, this is the sort of thing I have advocated Russia doing instead of investing in new platforms at this stage. With the proper resources I think Russia can do quite well modifying what it has to give its forces both a qualitative improvement as well as something that can be practically put into mass use.

Steve

[antaress73]

I agree with steve. This upgrade of the BMP is a huge improvement and could make it on par with some western equivalents, even sensor wise. They should also stick to the  T-90AM with improved sensors (which they already have with the armata program) and equip it with the new gun designed for the Armata and a new caroussel for the grifel ammo series, which would put it on par or even slightly superior to the M1A2 sep V.2 on the firepower part of the equation.The T-90AM1 (my designation to differenciate it from the in-game T-90AM) would be the mainstay of the Russian Tank force and the Armata would be introduced in much lower numbers and used as a "hotspot" tank for a few elite formations along with Kurganets. Much like the T-34-85/IS-2 combo in world war II. 

 

The US didnt introduce a new vehicule for heavy mechanized formations since 1980. They improved and upgraded the Bradley and the M1 since then.

 

Could we see the BMP-3 "Dragoon" in a module or content add-on ? Steve ?

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[Battlefront.com]

yeah Steve i thought the same thing about touch screens. Bumping around and filthy hands wouldnt probably be good for touch screens. I know with my cellphone even having mildly sweaty hands or sometimes a raindrop on a different part of the screen will render it inoperable. Of course im sure the Russian touch screen would be more robust than my android cell phone however its going into uncharted territory ..

Yeah, when a gunner wants to have something happen he doesn't have time to say "dang!" and wipe his fingers so that he can try again. At least intuitively that's what I'm picturing. But the bigger one, in my mind's eye, is motion.

There is some evidence to support concerns over a touch screen system:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676650

http://pro.sagepub.com/content/55/1/1855

Two synopsis of the above (same) report with my bold for emphasis:

 

This study investigates the effect of vehicle motion on performance, usability and workload for a touch screen in-vehicle Battle Management System (BMS). Participants performed a series of battle management tasks while a vehicle was driven over sealed (characteristic of 'normal' vehicle motion) and unsealed (characteristic of 'high' vehicle motion) roads. The results indicate that unsealed road conditions impair the performance of information input tasks (tasks that require the user to enter information, e.g. text entry) but not information extraction tasks (tasks that require the user to retrieve information from the system, e.g. reading coordinates). Participants rated workload as higher and the system as less usable on the unsealed road. In closing, the implications for in-vehicle touch screen design and use in both military and civilian driving contexts are discussed.Practitioner Summary: The effect of motion on interacting with in-vehicle touch screen devices remains largely unexplored. This study examines the effect of different levels of vehicle motion on the use of a BMS. Using the system under off-road conditions had a detrimental impact on workload, performance and usability.

The touch screen task was a mock battle management system intended for use in military surface transport vehicles. Twenty participants engaged in a series of battle management system tasks that required both the pull and push of information, for example, reading symbols and entering text. This was done while participants were seated in the front passenger seat in the simulator with an experimenter driving at a constant speed. High motion was simulated by driving along the road edge way, while low motion was simulated by driving along a sealed rural road. Motion profiles confirmed the greater amplitudes in acceleration across multiple axes of movement. The findings illustrate that almost all aspects of battle management system performance were degraded in the high motion condition, although the level of degradation was not as severe as participants gained more experience with the system.

I recently had the experience of using an iPad for GPS navigation. This was in a well maintained car on fairly well maintained roads. It was difficult and extremely error prone. Hence my curiosity about this topic

I know someone I can ask for a more professional understanding of this technology and where it is likely headed in the near future. I'll ask!

Steve

[Kieme(ITA)]

I already have troubles from time to time with my phone touch screen... wouldn't really use it instead of a few good old buttons, at least for the most effective and essential tasks...

 

Thanks for the new pictures by the way, I find the new information releasing very interesting to keep up with.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[antaress73]

as for showing off military stuff in detail, RUssia is a much more open and modern society than the western world care to acknowledge. The US has the military channel for that

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[L0ckAndL0ad]

I see little point for Russia to modify their BMP-3s to that level. It's still BMP-3 hull protection wise, and I gave specifics of that just few pages back. Kurganets-25 should provide more protection with new alloys used, and is by default intantry-friendly, and, most importantly, upgrade-ready. It allows add-on protection out of the box, turret upgrades have already been planned and actually in-progress (R&D). Manufacturer needs stuff to export, and they can't export Kurg, so that's their current strategy.

 

RE: Armata's screens. Look closely. These are not just touch screens, these are MFDs with touch capability. There are usual buttons on them like on usual MFDs.

 

Dragoon can be equipped with that 57mm gun, or even 125mm one O_o

 

Edited September 9, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad

[antaress73]

I see little point for Russia to modify their BMP-3s to that level. It's still BMP-3 hull protection wise, and I gave specifics of that just few pages back. Kurganets-25 should provide more protection with new alloys used, and is by default intantry-friendly, and, most importantly, upgrade-ready. It allows add-on protection out of the box, turret upgrades have already been planned and actually in-progress (R&D). Manufacturer needs stuff to export, and they can't export Kurg, so that's their current strategy.

 

RE: Armata's screens. Look closely. These are not just touch screens, these are MFDs with touch capability. There are usual buttons on them like on usual MFDs.

 

Dragoon can be equipped with that 57mm gun, or even 125mm one O_o

 

 

Fair, they should introduce the Kurg massively (less expensive than armata) but I still maintain that an upgraded T-90AM1 with the armata sensors, gun and ammo would be a nice solution and insurance against Armata's development problems or cost while greatly augmenting the capabilities of the russian tank force. Keep the armata as a prestige weapon (if it works well) for elite units.

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[Battlefront.com]

I see little point for Russia to modify their BMP-3s to that level. It's still BMP-3 hull protection wise, and I gave specifics of that just few pages back. Kurganets-25 should provide more protection with new alloys used, and is by default intantry-friendly, and, most importantly, upgrade-ready. It allows add-on protection out of the box, turret upgrades have already been planned and actually in-progress (R&D).

All that is very true, but I come back to the argument I continually make... for what Russia is likely to go up against, having an improved BMP-3 replacing all BMP-2s would have far more practical benefits for Russian military operations than a handful of much more capable vehicles. At least there is a very strong argument to be made for that case.

 

Manufacturer needs stuff to export, and they can't export Kurg, so that's their current strategy.

That makes sense.

 

RE: Armata's screens. Look closely. These are not just touch screens, these are MFDs with touch capability. There are usual buttons on them like on usual MFDs.

Yes, but we don't know if the touch aspect is completely redundant or not. I'm guessing it is, however that's not known yet. The point is that reliance on touch is dubious.

 

Dragoon can be equipped with that 57mm gun, or even 125mm one O_o

I take back some of what I said before. Looks like there's still the intention of having 2 dismounts forward of the turret. I don't see the clearance between hull and the remote turret "basket" as being viable for dismounting with a full combat load. Certainly not when in a rush. I had thought the point was to drop the two forward dismounts and compensate with an additional vehicle or have one per platoon and live with 2 less dismounts. Something other than expecting two combat equipped soldiers squeezing between the hull and the turret basket.

Steve