panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I've been in the back of a wide variety of APCs. That's a very naked troop compartment. Granted it's the corner but you should be able to see seating or stowage or acess to stowage. That green thing is way too low to be a bench. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Correct, but Russia doesn't have the sort of good will and future hope that the US does. When the US increases its money printing the world might not like it, but they have very little choice but to put up with it and adjust. Russia is not in the same position of strength. In fact, capital flight out of Russia indicates the opposite is true. True, having the OPEC trading in $ also helps, among other countries having their currency hard linked to the $ :-). In the end Russia can devaluate their currency only by a certain margin before other problems start to become nasty (or nastier), no disagreement there. Still they can finance a limited amount of (government) projects by printing extra money. Again the problem is imo rather that the current leadership value's different projects as to what is beneficial to the majority of the population (for example the Ukraine 'project'). If you'd ask me I would think that there is enough liquidity in the hands of people having (or had) Russian passports, but not all of them seem to think it is a good idea to invest that money in Russia. This is what analysts have been saying Russia should have done for the last 15 years, but in fact has done much the opposite. Agreed, at least I haven't seen much proof of improvements in those fields. At several points in this thread I've challenged anyone to make a case for a strong export market for these vehicles. Presuming, of course, that Russia actually makes them available for export. So far, not much to refute my position that the export market for these vehicles doesn't look very good.In any case, the relevance to this is Russia will have to deal with the economic reality sooner rather than later. And that reality will necessitate more changes to the defense spending side of the economy than is currently envisioned by the Kremlin. If they do then that will no doubt have an impact on A/B/K. And if they don't, probably even worse for A/B/K. If they turn out to be quite capable weapon platforms I'm quite sure a buyer could be found. Even if they'd sell a little below costprice it keeps production lines going, people at work, experience gained and long term relationships. Selling in $, producing in roebels. However I wasn't primarily talking about exports, just the fact that they are indigenously producing new generation platforms boosts R&D, jobs at those factories, people with experience, etc. Apart from whether the project is a success or when they will have a certain amount of vehicles ready/pressed into service, the whole experience adds to the Russian economy. More than simply exporting crude and having other refine it for you. Besides (not) having the required resources, I like to think that A/K/B type of programs are well comparable to very large IT projects: those making the highlevel decisions often have little to no knowledge about the underlying matter, scope-creep is a law of nature and timelines could just as well been decided upon by monkeys So it will be on time, on budget and on scope as long as you are in control of those variables Edited August 3, 2015 by Lethaface 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 If they turn out to be quite capable weapon platforms I'm quite sure a buyer could be found. Even if they'd sell a little below costprice it keeps production lines going, people at work, experience gained and long term relationships. Selling in $, producing in roebels. Here's the thing though: Who would the buyers be? The main audience for Russian exports are the folks that the Armata is supposed to be designed to push around, and an audience that realistically could not handle the Armata (or in so many words are folks who struggle to keep T-72s and T-90s operational). India seems like the most likely source for a large procurement, but post PAK-FA, and with domestic tank production, there's reason to doubt that much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) well ive never been in an ifv or tank so.... well... er.. ok so whats the green thing is my counter. weak i know. perhaps its a really poorly designed bench. or perhaps in keeping with the low profile for fighting in steppes russia will only accept dwarves for motor rifle brigades using armata derivatives Edited August 3, 2015 by Sublime 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Here's the thing though: Who would the buyers be? The main audience for Russian exports are the folks that the Armata is supposed to be designed to push around, and an audience that realistically could not handle the Armata (or in so many words are folks who struggle to keep T-72s and T-90s operational). India seems like the most likely source for a large procurement, but post PAK-FA, and with domestic tank production, there's reason to doubt that much. Greece? :-P Or a bit more likely: UAE, Malaysia, Kuwait. Anyway I'm not advocating it's gonna be a big moneymaker exportwise and that's a reason Russia should do the project. It is however (imo) a project that is beneficial to their economy and might result in exports if successful. Perhaps not the best thing they could do, but that's another thing. Edited August 3, 2015 by Lethaface 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Greece? :-P Or a bit more likely: UAE, Malaysia, Kuwait. Anyway I'm not advocating it's gonna be a big moneymaker exportwise and that's a reason Russia should do the project. It is however (imo) a project that is beneficial to their economy and might result in exports if successful. Perhaps not the best thing they could do, but that's another thing. Only if the defense spending doesn't break the economy in the process. Which is where this is headed at the moment. Rome is burning, and the orgies continue. Or something like that It can not last. And before anybody accuses me of this thinking about Russia alone, I absolutely do not. The West's economies are also living on borrowed time. The primary difference is they have more ability to borrow time. The secondary difference is Russia's problems are easier to predict as being sooner rather than later. Much like it was possible to predict Greece's situation 10 years ago if one just looked critically at the available information. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Soon there'll be a test-drive video with Kurganets-25. Short teaser can be found here: http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201509041408-vf9d.htm Camo-ed: ps: they promise some live fire footage Edited September 4, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 And here's some live fire. You're welcome http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201509041559-ixvc.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieme(ITA) Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Thanks a lot. You know what surprised me most of anything else in the video? The fact that the two guys managed to swap place inside the vehicle. Also, looks like they received a new camo pattern. Edited September 4, 2015 by Kieme(ITA) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 You may have noticed from the first video that the hatches' positions have changed, compared to earlier photos. Those Kurgs that we've seen on parade had welding seams there. I think it's a very good sign, meaning that they are okay with changing stuff up till the end of field trials. Same is most likely true with internal equipment placement configs. Thumbnail shows the camo on the side: Full video should be up this Sunday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 Some reporters do get to have more fun than others. Cool videos. I was surprised to see him sitting on the front of the vehicle like that as they were zipping along. Not that the reporter looked unsafe but the camera man was backwards and did not have the auto cannon to hold on to. I hope he had something solid to hold onto. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) You can see from the shadows on some shots that they use several small GoPro (or similar) cameras to film this. Either way, them Russians... They keep teasing us. Another teaser vid. Side armor is actually ERA (notes say 500mm RHA and 30kg per block). Also, the notes to the first video say that Kurg has changeable (delta 0.5m) clearance. https://youtu.be/EPNN8Kc17_A Edited September 4, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 LOckAndLOad, Nice. Wish I spoke Russian, because that first site looks like my cup of tea and it would be nice to be able to hear the explanations on several of the vids, especially the one with the ERA assembly on the dolly. What a lucky dog that reporter is! The interior is nothing like the Russian IFV interiors of the Cold War, starting with there being so much room for the crew, never mind the opto-electronics and vetronics. What ATGM is that which seems to operate the same way as the TOW 2B and the BILL? Is the Kurg turret manned or unmanned? Can't recall, but am leaning toward latter. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Pretty sure those were TOW-2B / Bill clips. An odd choice. Camo is not Russian Army, but the scheme usually used by manufacturer for trade / export shows (along with the "desert" version). Maybe VDV uses same or similar scheme? The turret is unmanned. Edited September 4, 2015 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 akd, Definitely not TOW 2B, since it has no such canards, just mid body and tail fins. Here's the entire TOW family through TOW 2B. http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/bgm-71-all.jpg BILL 2. Again, no canards. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/bofors/images/bofors2.jpg The latest model, KORNET-EM (9M133M-2) does have canards. Additionally, I note with interest I was right about the dual mounts on the Tigr. The system can engage two separate targets simultaneously, making it a sort of Kriz in terms of firepower, except there is no radar. It can also guide two missiles on one guidance beam to defeat ERA protected targets. http://www.kbptula.ru/en/productions/antitank-guided-weapon/kornet-em/automatic-launcher-on-carriers (Fair Use) Simultaneous salvo firing at two targets greatly increases rate of fire and firing effectiveness of the system. Firing by two missiles in one beam to engage extra dangerous targets including those protected by ERA. The question then becomes: Have the Russians now fielded a top attack capability via overflight for the KORNET EM/9M133M-2 in order to get around the extraordinary armor protection on the Abrams and other heavily protected vs DF modern MBTs? If so, it seems to me that's a big deal. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 You may have noticed from the first video that the hatches' positions have changed, compared to earlier photos. Those Kurgs that we've seen on parade had welding seams there. I think it's a very good sign, meaning that they are okay with changing stuff up till the end of field trials. Same is most likely true with internal equipment placement configs. Thumbnail shows the camo on the side: Full video should be up this Sunday. Such a beauty makes me tear up every time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Info descriptions in such vids for the most part are useless to us, since they describe the basic principles behind systems (ie how ERA works) for ordinary people that might be watching. So you don't miss much due to your lack of Russian. As for the top-down attack clips, yeah, I noticed that right away. Gotta wait for a full video on Sunday to get an idea of what's up. These are just teaser vids, might be mashed up. BTW, the ERA that the guy is showing in the NII Stali yard (or wherever that is) is 2S24, which is BMP-3M's ERA. 500mm/30kg are it's stats, not necesserally of Kurg's. And as for the reporter, I've already posted another episode of the same show here, with Typhoons. They're kind of rivals with Poligon. http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118480-armata-soon-to-be-in-service/page-71#entry1609171 There's been one on VDV anniversary (featuring BMD-4M): https://youtu.be/q7nyaSOyvZ8 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) LOckAndLOad, Appreciate ERA discussion and am glad I didn't miss much for want of Russian skills. NII Stal is the main center for Russian armor development and other material related exotica. I skipped ahead to the splendid BMD-4M. Why doesn't the Us have something similar? the last deem we had a sonewhat air droppable AFV was the Sheridan. Not exactly a stunning success. It's a wonder that reporter didn't get run over by several BRDM-4Ms hurtling out the gaping cargo bay exit! But I spotted something quite interesting, though I've barely begun to watch ( a matter since corrected). You may recall the discussion about having the MANPAD SAM guy up and ready to fire with the vehicle on the move. Someone produced a somewhat blurry pic which showed a MANPAD missile being launched from a stopped BMP. At 3:20, you can see the MANPAD operator is up and ready to go in the second BRDM-4 (this after the first went by with a RPG man on it went by). but that pales compared to the positively breathtaking array of modern Spetsnaz material. Drool! the latest kit, the new cammies, underwater weapons, rebreathers, not to mention armed ATVs, powered parasails, etc. Frankly, I'm astounded they let this be broadcast. Many thanks for a tremendous video! Regards, John Kettler Edited September 5, 2015 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 Camo: yes, that's VDV camo. You can see for yourself, BMD-4M, BMP-3 and Kurg-25 next to each other, with the same camo. New teaser vid: http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201509051055-1p2w.htm This one cleared a lot of confustion for me. There are two variants of side panels for Kurg. One is floats+armor plate, second is ERA. We've all seen the first one (floats) on parade, and the ERA panel was shown here. In today's teaser they show floats and armor plate that's inside (tested vs 12.7mm). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) LOckAndLOad, Appreciate ERA discussion and am glad I didn't miss much for want of Russian skills. NII Stal is the main center for Russian armor development and other material related exotica. I skipped ahead to the splendid BMD-4M. Why doesn't the Us have something similar? the last deem we had a sonewhat air droppable AFV was the Sheridan. Not exactly a stunning success. It's a wonder that reporter didn't get run over by several BRDM-4Ms hurtling out the gaping cargo bay exit! But I spotted something quite interesting, though I've barely begun to watch ( a matter since corrected). You may recall the discussion about having the MANPAD SAM guy up and ready to fire with the vehicle on the move. Someone produced a somewhat blurry pic which showed a MANPAD missile being launched from a stopped BMP. At 3:20, you can see the MANPAD operator is up and ready to go in the second BRDM-4 (this after the first went by with a RPG man on it went by). but that pales compared to the positively breathtaking array of modern Spetsnaz material. Drool! the latest kit, the new cammies, underwater weapons, rebreathers, not to mention armed ATVs, powered parasails, etc. Frankly, I'm astounded they let this be broadcast. Many thanks for a tremendous video! Regards, John Kettler I find BMD-4M to be very sexy looking, but, just as BMP-3, it sucks as a personnel carrier, for obvious reasons. Other than that, I like optics package and IDF fire capability. Riding with MANPADS? Yeah, pretty widespread SOP. Having one ready while on the move is a must for modern combat environment. Check the first vid, with Typhoons, it's way more interesting IMO. ps: there's no such thing as "BRDM-4M" ADDED: They can't stop teasing! http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201509051114-jumj.htm Edited September 5, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 LockAndLOad, I see I made a clutch of mistakes: garbled AFV name; uncapitalized first letter of a sentence; uncapitalized "S" in "US;" "deem" instead of "time." Truly impressive--not in a good way. I saw the Typhoon vid earlier and, pardon, was blown away! Those things seem to be everything MRAP isn't. I find the "tease" video to be quite the attention grabber, especially the all round visual surveillance! Offhand, and I'm hardly an AFV expert, I don't know of any other vehicle which has such a capability. Pretty slick. Compared to other Russian IFVs and the MTLB, the latter of which I've uncomfortably (5' 11") sat in, the Kurg is practically cavernous. Am not at all sure what that business was with the drop down hatch thing. To me, it looks like a toilet. The toys in the rack to image left were notable, too. RPG whats? Any possibility you can get them to put a translation button on their site? Would love that. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0ckAndL0ad Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Drop down hatch is indeed a toilet seat. Not sure about the RPGs, probably 18s, but most likely all dummies. Translation? Haha, won't happen. I usually highlight the most important stuff when I post Russian material, so if I don't say anything, it's most likely not that interesting. The tubes near the roof from the previous video, for example, were a part of air filtering system (NBC protection). As per usual, Kurg is able to be operational without people getting out of it for several days. Pretty much standard feature for any combat vehicle. Oh, and let me be that Captain Obvious for you, when you see all those occasional "СЕКРЕТНО" signs (where they redacted some of the Kurg's internals, amphibious tests and driver's controls etc), that means "CLASSIFIED". ADDED: The more the better. They've announced the show about Armata vehicle series on 17th. Edited September 5, 2015 by L0ckAndL0ad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) akd, Definitely not TOW 2B, since it has no such canards, just mid body and tail fins.um, you think the missile silhouette part is real and connected directly to the other footage? I knew I had seen those clips before:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9IjAPVTtYDE Edited September 5, 2015 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Duchess Posted September 5, 2015 Share Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) *Ahem* Right video uploaded March 7, 2011. Left video uploaded September 4, 2015. I'm reminded of the Chinese using clips from Top Gun for their recruiting video. Edited September 5, 2015 by Codename Duchess 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) Codename Duchess, This is known as maximizing the ad budget! As for the Chinese Top Gun program, it has been dogged (despite it being Year of the Sheep presently) by the way these things get presented in Chinese. Somehow, Most Excellent and Illustrious Number One Firearm program just isn't quite as euphonious or catchy. But I kid! On a more serious note, good catch. I can but hope my relief that the capability shown isn't on any Russian ATGM is borne out by reality, and isn't based on wishes. Regards, John Kettler Edited September 6, 2015 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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