Uh so has Debaltseve fallen?

[MikeyD]

 

I think he has posted more since the Black Sea forum opened than he has in the previous ten years!

 

You should see the topic thread over on the Beta side, 4,500 posts and counting! 

[John Kettler]

Apropos of VICE's "Ghost Army" doc, someone sent me the link to a site I believe was referenced in it called Lost Ivan. It's a site devoted to helping Russian families find their missing members.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Kraft]

Mozgovoi seems/ed to be one of the few somewhat proper guys, would be a shame if he really has been killed to make room for the likes of Givi/..

[DreDay]

Yeah, It would be a shame if Mozgovoi was replaced by Givi; because (as we all know) Givi is the undead wizard of level 5 as he has already been killed 4 times in the battles for the airport. Still better than Motorola, whose magic powers allow him to rise from the dead several times per week    Although wait, there is no proof that he has been alive for the past 12 hours "as far as we know..."

 

I wonder who the most "killed" commander on the Ukrainian side is. I am guessing Mr. Yarosh, as I have seen at least 3 or 4 reports of his death... anyone else that I am missing out?

[Kraft]

I think the probability of a claim of someones death ending up being true increases tremendously if there was an assassination attempt on him during the last few days/weeks 

 

And Givi - he probably got reported as KIA every time he claimed to fully control the Airport

[John Kettler]

Forgot to mention that Putin's proxies and even an officer of the Russian military are apparently disguising their presence in some areas by operating in fake OSCE marked vehicles. That's also from Lost Ivan. No, I didn't suddenly learn to speak Russian. Someone sent me the link and told me what it was about. The on-page translator (covers dozens of languages) did the rest.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[DreDay]

And Givi - he probably got reported as KIA every time he claimed to fully control the Airport

 

Lol! Touche!! Then again; Givi seems to have ended up on the upper hand of that equation - he did get the honors (deserved or not) for taking the airport and he is still around...

 

Forgot to mention that Putin's proxies and even an officer of the Russian military are apparently disguising their presence in some areas by operating in fake OSCE marked vehicles. That's also from Lost Ivan. No, I didn't suddenly learn to speak Russian. Someone sent me the link and told me what it was about. The on-page translator (covers dozens of languages) did the rest.

 

 

Haven't you heard the latest news? Putin is dead as well... or maybe he had a baby... tough to tell... but he is definitely up to no good. Let's wait for the "Lost Vladimir" site to come out so that we can have a definitive source of information!

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, It would be a shame if Mozgovoi was replaced by Givi;

Replacing a misogynist with a masochist... well... I guess in relative terms I'd agree with you.

 

because (as we all know) Givi is the undead wizard of level 5 as he has already been killed 4 times in the battles for the airport. Still better than Motorola, whose magic powers allow him to rise from the dead several times per week    Although wait, there is no proof that he has been alive for the past 12 hours "as far as we know..."

As Kraft pointed out, you fail to mention that most of the incorrect reports of death are often based on fact. Specifically that the person in question was detained, wounded, or nearly killed. Same for Gubarev, Girkin, and others. The premature reports of death fall into the usual patterns of gossip getting things wrong. Battlefront has been in it's last days of being in business a few times according to some

The fact is Mozgovoi NARROWLY escaped an assassination attempt that was very carefully, but imperfectly, carried out. He survived by mere inches. So it doesn't seem to me very surprising that whomever failed to kill him would try again. I won't presume him dead yet, but I do think it's likely that someone at least tried to make him that way.

 

I wonder who the most "killed" commander on the Ukrainian side is. I am guessing Mr. Yarosh, as I have seen at least 3 or 4 reports of his death... anyone else that I am missing out?

Yup, Yarosh has been "killed" a number of times. I think even one time his own troops or Ukrainian Army killed him, but that could be a false memory. Though I would be surprised if I'm wrong

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Haven't you heard the latest news? Putin is dead as well... or maybe he had a baby... tough to tell... but he is definitely up to no good. Let's wait for the "Lost Vladimir" site to come out so that we can have a definitive source of information!

We have all the evidence we need right here in this secret footage smuggled out of Moscow:

Seriously though, with Putin even a bad stomach flu would be covered up as much as pancreatic cancer. It's part of the age old "he's a god, therefore he never has health problems" school of PR management. Certainly the Soviet Union was pretty strict on reporting anything on its leaders' health. So a wise person would view Putin's absence as being nothing serious for the time being.

Official Russian media states Putin has a meeting scheduled for the 16th with Almazbek Atambayev (Kyrgyzstan's President). I fully expect him to show up there, and I fully don't expect any explanation for his sudden absence. Including his first ever miss of the FSB's annual summit.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Forgot to mention that Putin's proxies and even an officer of the Russian military are apparently disguising their presence in some areas by operating in fake OSCE marked vehicles. That's also from Lost Ivan. No, I didn't suddenly learn to speak Russian. Someone sent me the link and told me what it was about. The on-page translator (covers dozens of languages) did the rest.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

That was reported at the time. IIRC it was in the Summer or sometime.

Edit... I checked the link and it appears to have been July 7.

Steve

[sburke]

The odd thing is Russian media attempts to hide his absence have included posting video that was easily proven to be old footage. When it was pointed out they simply said "it was a mistake". Well duh. Something screwy is going on.

[DreDay]

Replacing a misogynist with a masochist... well... I guess in relative terms I'd agree with you.

Steve, I was being facetious. The concept of Mozgovoi being replaced by Givi is so random (even for this thread) that it does not require an intellectual debate. Luckily Kraft saw where I was going and was a good sport about it…

 

As Kraft pointed out, you fail to mention that most of the incorrect reports of death are often based on fact. Specifically that the person in question was detained, wounded, or nearly killed. Same for Gubarev, Girkin, and others. The premature reports of death fall into the usual patterns of gossip getting things wrong. Battlefront has been in it's last days of being in business a few times according to some

Again I was not being serious here, so there is no need to over-analyze it. Everyone lies at war. This one is no different. Some choose to believe one side, some choose another, and few try to be balanced – none of those options are absolute… enough said!

 

The fact is Mozgovoi NARROWLY escaped an assassination attempt that was very carefully, but imperfectly, carried out. He survived by mere inches. So it doesn't seem to me very surprising that whomever failed to kill him would try again. I won't presume him dead yet, but I do think it's likely that someone at least tried to make him that way.

That is not an unreasonable assumption; but for lack of better evidence it is not very relevant either… Most civil wars seem to follow the Game of Thrones (“Everyone Dies”) rules; I don’t see how this one any different…

 

Yup, Yarosh has been "killed" a number of times. I think even one time his own troops or Ukrainian Army killed him, but that could be a false memory. Though I would be surprised if I'm wrong

Steve

I am not sure either. Mr. Simchenko definitely holds multiple records for the shortest time at the front-lines prior being sidelined by some wounds. Besides that, the ubiquitous “polish PMCs” are the repetitive unconfirmed KIA leaders on the Ukrainian side

Edited March 14, 2015 by DreDay

[Battlefront.com]

Steve, I was being facetious. The concept of Mozgovoi being replaced by Givi is so random (even for this thread) that it does not require an intellectual debate. Luckily Kraft saw where I was going and was a good sport about it…

Oh, I didn't take your first comment seriously at all. I just thought I'd put in my own

 

Again I was not being serious here, so there is no need to over-analyze it. Everyone lies at war. This one is no different. Some choose to believe one side, some choose another, and few try to be balanced – none of those options are absolute… enough said!

For sure both sides lie, but more often the laws of imperfect information morphing into less perfect information is usually more of the case in such situations. You appeared to be chalking it up more as disinformation tactic, I chalk it up more to factual events getting twisted each set of hands it goes through. In the US as a kid there was a lesson in a game we called "operator" where one person whispers something to one person and that person whispers it to someone else. The lesson concluded when the last person "repeated" the message of the first person and everybody saw how absolutely wrong it was. It's a good lesson!

Anyway, if your point is that information like this should be treated as suspect until proven true or false, I totally agree. Though I think given the definite attempt on his life, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a second. BTW, his video appeal, to me, sounded like a guy trying to say things that might call off the assassins.

 

I am not sure either. Mr. Simchenko definitely holds multiple records for the shortest time at the front-lines prior being sidelined by some wounds. Besides that, the ubiquitous “polish PMCs” are the repetitive unconfirmed KIA leaders on the Ukrainian side

Indeed. Lots of fun and inventive "news" in this war. I hope nobody tries to top the crucified baby story though. And if someone does, I would hope that Russian media would actually make an effort to retract it after reporting it verbatim.

Steve

[DreDay]

Oh, I didn't take your first comment seriously at all. I just thought I'd put in my own

Well, way to ruin a party bro!! (j/k) This war (like most civil wars) is so awful that there is not much to joke about here; however the erroneous media coverage by all sides is something that we both seem to find outlandish….

 

For sure both sides lie, but more often the laws of imperfect information morphing into less perfect information is usually more of the case in such situations. You appeared to be chalking it up more as disinformation tactic, I chalk it up more to factual events getting twisted each set of hands it goes through. In the US as a kid there was a lesson in a game we called "operator" where one person whispers something to one person and that person whispers it to someone else. The lesson concluded when the last person "repeated" the message of the first person and everybody saw how absolutely wrong it was. It's a good lesson!

Yep, we used to call that game a “broken telephone” when I was a kid… The only difference here is that the lies are not just “lost in transmission”; but purposely doctored for propaganda purposes by all sides (unfortunately our own media is no exception to this dirty information war)

 

Anyway, if your point is that information like this should be treated as suspect until proven true or false, I totally agree. Though I think given the definite attempt on his life, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a second. BTW, his video appeal, to me, sounded like a guy trying to say things that might call off the assassins.

Yep, I agree. His “I forgive everyone” message was just that.

 

Indeed. Lots of fun and inventive "news" in this war. I hope nobody tries to top the crucified baby story though. And if someone does, I would hope that Russian media would actually make an effort to retract it after reporting it verbatim.

See, here is where you and I see things differently. You seem to have a strong association with the Kiev government’s cause (which is conveniently advocated by our own media most of the time); and a strong aversion for the Russian side. I on the other hand, see all sides (US government included) as guilty of this stupid and unnecessary war; but I can definitely see the Russian perspective on this and don’t find their actions to be any more cruel and despicable than those of any other major power. Is the crucified baby BS any more of BS than the AC-Seeking MANPAD (just to use one example of many)? To me they are both equally ridiculous; but not at all surprising. Yet, you seem to have a much stronger aversion to the former rather than the later. I wonder if you would have seen things differently if you were able to browse Russian sources in their native language... Either way though, you have certainly done your homework on this and are entitled to your view… as am I for that matter.

[Ashez]

I'm going to stop this right now. If you want to repeat Russian propaganda verbatim and not point out that when Putin wants something he just has the guy arrested and gives the billions of Dollars of stuff away to his friends, then you should probably not post any more.

Somewhat related, the Brits are threatening to publish Putin's personal holdings that they know of. The estimates I've heard are somewhere in the $70-$90 Billion. I don't know what the KGB pension plan is, but it sounds like it's pretty nice!

Steve

 

Of course I will not post here anymore as apparently it is pointless. Every John Doe living thousands of miles away, not understanding the language, not knowing anyone personally and who has never been to Ukraine or Crimea, is suddenly an expert on Ukraine, but people who understand Russian and Ukrainian and having their cities swarmed by Ukrainian 'students' are suddenly internet trolls. If you question the validity of Azov picture go to Lviv to one of the Right Sector pubs, you're gonna get more along with personal autographs.

 

Your understanding what is going on in Ukraine and Europe is well...lacking at best. Half dozen of Region Party politicians committed 'suicide' since the beginning of the year, corruption is bigger than before, all anti-maidan people living on Ukraine are devoid of any parliamentary representation and I read that Ukraine is building 'democracy'. Greece is demanding enormous war reparations from Germany on top of its poor economical situation and I will not even start on potential conseqences - enough to say that Europe could be on the brink of biggest crisis in its most modern history - but yeah, it is going to 'rebuild' Ukraine no matter how much it is destroyed.

 

Please also consider tagging this forum in an appropriate way so everyone knows which side is 'right' and 'wrong' and what the 'propaganda' is. Great way to prevent trolls from posting! Fox news would be proud!

 

Have a nice debate sirs!

Edited March 14, 2015 by Ashez

[Battlefront.com]

See, here is where you and I see things differently. You seem to have a strong association with the Kiev government’s cause (which is conveniently advocated by our own media most of the time);

A weaker nation being attacked by a stronger nation that is trying to retain its domination of it, yet refuses to admit it is even fighting, does tend to make me a little biased. Yeah, I'm really funny that way.

I on the other hand, see all sides (US government included) as guilty of this stupid and unnecessary war;

The one that is waging the war is the one most responsible. So I guess I'm kinda naive in trying to hold the one most accountable... uhm... accountable.

Is the crucified baby BS any more of BS than the AC-Seeking MANPAD (just to use one example of many)? To me they are both equally ridiculous; but not at all surprising.

A contrived lie to justify and entice an entire population to kill each other, propagated by state controlled media, isn't even in the same ballpark as a government trying to dodge responsibility for a badly executed airstrike against the forces that are illegally in its country killing its citizens. Not even close.

Yet, you seem to have a much stronger aversion to the former rather than the later.

Damn straight I do. If there was no illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine by Russia, would the Ukrainian fighter pilot have made a poorly aimed shot at a ZSU set up in a civilian area? No.

I wonder if you would have seen things differently if you were able to browse Russian sources in their native language... Either way though, you have certainly done your homework on this and are entitled to your view… as am I for that matter.

 

I don't understand how speaking Russian would change the facts. The facts are language independent.

 

Of course I will not post here anymore as apparently it is pointless. Every John Doe living thousands of miles away, not understanding the language, not knowing anyone personally and who has never been to Ukraine or Crimea, is suddenly an expert on Ukraine, but people who understand Russian and Ukrainian and having their cities swarmed by Ukrainian 'students' are suddenly internet trolls. If you question the validity of Azov picture go to Lviv to one of the Right Sector pubs, you're gonna get more along with personal autographs.

If this is directed at me, you're making a very poor argument as it is very misinformed.

Steve

[DreDay]

A weaker nation being attacked by a stronger nation that is trying to retain its domination of it, yet refuses to admit it is even fighting, does tend to make me a little biased. Yeah, I'm really funny that way.

I don’t find it funny. I find it righteous, which I can certainly appreciate and identify with…if not for the selective nature of it. As I’ve said before; I am not defending or supporting the Russians in this conflict – what I am claiming though is that their actions are in line with what other regional and one global power do all the time to protect their national interests. Now I know that you are quite capable of critical thinking and you don’t just blindly go with what our (or Russian, or Ukrainian) media feeds you; so that’s why I find it so difficult to see why you don’t bother contemplating this point. Then again, I don’t understand how someone of such intellectual strength and knowledge base as yourself could claim that we (US) have not violated any state’s sovereignty in recent history (as you have stated last week)… Now that I do find funny, good sir!!

 

The one that is waging the war is the one most responsible. So I guess I'm kinda naive in trying to hold the one most accountable... uhm... accountable.

By the same token one can just as easily say that the Ukrainian government is waging war on its own people. Which is a line that we (US) have used over and over to remove the regimes that don’t fit our national interests… There is a flip side to this coin, and again I don’t see why you consciously choose to overlook it…

A contrived lie to justify and entice an entire population to kill each other, propagated by state controlled media, isn't even in the same ballpark as a government trying to dodge responsibility for a badly executed airstrike against the forces that are illegally in its country killing its citizens. Not even close.

With all due respect Steve, you are speaking purely with your emotions here. Whatever the reason was for that stupid baby story, which got retracted the next day btw, no one was telling the Ukrainians to kill each other (at least not any more than both sides had already dehumanized each other by that time). Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it’s not an argument you’re going to win with someone who had studied FSU foreign affairs for many years and monitors local media coverage in Russian and Ukrainian. Sorry, but I am going to play that card here: P

 

Damn straight I do. If there was no illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine by Russia, would the Ukrainian fighter pilot have made a poorly aimed shot at a ZSU set up in a civilian area? No.

Are you aware of a single iota of evidence that the Lugansk city hall was surrounded by anyone but local citizens? Same citizens perhaps that did not agree with the Kiev regime’s actions and stood up to it? Same citizens perhaps that were more than willing to negotiate and to compromise with the Kiev regime before they were declared lazy, drunken scum and were shelled and starved into submission?

I am not excusing Russian involvement into this nor denying their responsibility to what we are seeing now, however your complete inability to recognize the irresponsible actions of Kiev government (that were pretty much given a blank check by US and Europe) makes for a very one sided (and frankly dull) argument…

 

I don't understand how speaking Russian would change the facts. The facts are language independent.

Our exposure to facts is limited by the information that is presented to us. The ability to read the news reports in a native language (along with being aware of cultural and historical aspects that come along with those) allows one to filter out the facts from propaganda and to reduce our availability bias based on comparing both sides of the reporting on said “facts” . That’s sort of the most basic concept of international studies and foreign policy analysis…

Edited March 14, 2015 by DreDay

[Kraft]

Every John Doe living thousands of miles away, not understanding the language, not knowing anyone personally and who has never been to Ukraine or Crimea, is suddenly an expert on Ukraine, but people who understand Russian and Ukrainian and having their cities swarmed by Ukrainian 'students' are suddenly internet trolls.

 

Well.. I guess you can't ever truly know if the holocaust really happened, then. Because I highly doubt you are from Germany and have a living German grandpa telling you it's all just a lie from those damn Tommies!. 

[DreDay]

Well.. I guess you can't ever truly know if the holocaust really happened, then. Because I highly doubt you are from Germany and have a living German grandpa telling you it's all just a lie from those damn Tommies!. 

I see where you're going with this and there is certainly some validity to your argument. The fact is though, the Germans have completely owned up to the Holocaust and the denial of Nazi crimes is more severely punished there than in any other country that I can think of.

Now to make this a little controversial – did the slaughter of Jews, Poles, and Russians in Western Ukraine during WW2 really hapen or is that just a Soviet (and now Russian) myth? Can anyone without access to both Russian and (West) Ukrainian side of this story make an educated decision on that? On a flip side - what about Gholodomor (sp?) – can that be accurately analyzed without having access to (Soviet) Russian and (anti-Soviet) Ukrainian reports?

Edited March 14, 2015 by DreDay

[Desertor]

I just read a english translated interview to a twenty year old tank gunner recovering in a hospital after his tank got destroyed at Debaltseve.

It is long and full of details, about a lot of things that are being discussed in this thread.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/02/the-story-of-a-russian-soldiers-war-in-ukraine-we-all-knew-what-we-had-to-do-and-what-could-happen/

[Battlefront.com]

I don’t find it funny. I find it righteous, which I can certainly appreciate and identify with…if not for the selective nature of it.

Selective? How so? Please elaborate.

 

As I’ve said before; I am not defending or supporting the Russians in this conflict - what I am claiming though is that their actions are in line with what other regional and one global power do all the time to protect their national interests.

Ah, might makes right! If that's something that you find acceptable and want to lend support to by excusing it, then you can do that. Personally, I've never been fond of that line of thinking.

 

Now I know that you are quite capable of critical thinking and you don’t just blindly go with what our (or Russian, or Ukrainian) media feeds you; so that’s why I find it so difficult to see why you don’t bother contemplating this point.

Uhm, I've done plenty of contemplation. Russia absolutely has national interests in Ukraine and some of them need to be respected (I don't respect Putin's need to ensure there's no Russian democracy on his border, for example). Even Obama stated that at the beginning of this crisis. Certainly Germany is highly sympathetic to these concerns. But a military invasion and annexation of territory of a country that wants to have more say in its own future is not acceptable.

 

Then again, I don’t understand how someone of such intellectual strength and knowledge base as yourself could claim that we (US) have not violated any state’s sovereignty in recent history (as you have stated last week)… Now that I do find funny, good sir!!

I made a qualified statement with Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and even Syria in mind when I said it. If you can find a parallel to Russia's behavior in recent US history, I'd like to hear it. And I'll even allow one that doesn't involve the US unilaterally annexing territory of another country.

 

By the same token one can just as easily say that the Ukrainian government is waging war on its own people.

The current estimate is that roughly 80% of the fighters in eastern Ukraine are Russian citizens. So yes, I suppose you could argue that Ukraine is waging a war against a small percentage of its citizens who have been armed and trained by a foreign state. It's certainly a legitimate point of view. But it is also critical to ask if Ukraine would be fighting this war if Russia hadn't started it, made it possible to continue, and certainly thwarted it being ended in the Spring or the Summer.

 

With all due respect Steve, you are speaking purely with your emotions here. Whatever the reason was for that stupid baby story, which got retracted the next day btw, no one was telling the Ukrainians to kill each other (at least not any more than both sides had already dehumanized each other by that time). Please don’t take this the wrong way, but it’s not an argument you’re going to win with someone who had studied FSU foreign affairs for many years and monitors local media coverage in Russian and Ukrainian. Sorry, but I am going to play that card here: P

I am not being emotional, but extremely pragmatic. I understand what propaganda is, how it functions, and what it's intended effect is. I also understand that running a highly inflammatory story, on top of countless others, has an effect even if it is retracted on Page 11 in small print like the NYT did after the Cheney instigated "leak". I'm not happy to know that someone who speaks both languages and apparently makes a career of monitoring local media does not understand this.

Let me put it another way. People and governments almost always lie for a reason. The reasons are usually, but not always, important. I cited two contrasting examples of lies. In one the Ukrainian government lied about a military strike that went wrong, in the other Russian media (which is an official organ of the Russian state) running a story about a crucified baby that didn't meet even minimal standards for publication (it is also highly probable that she was paid by a Russian media outlet to make this story, BTW). What were the reasons behind each lie?

For the Luhansk strike it was to avoid taking responsibility for directly causing civilian deaths at a time when things, generally, weren't going very well for either the military or the Ukrainian state. This was a self contained lie that was a reaction to a specific event that, had it not happened, would not have been necessary.

For the crucified baby story it was to mobilize public opinion in both Ukraine and Russia against the Ukrainian government and to incite both to take action, or at least support action, against Ukraine. This story was not reactive because the story itself was a deliberate invention created in concert with a massive and expensive propaganda campaign that had started months before and is continuing to this day.

Again, if you examine these things in a professional capacity you should understand the fundamental differences between the two.

 

Are you aware of a single iota of evidence that the Lugansk city hall was surrounded by anyone but local citizens?

Yup, I'm fully aware of this. But from what I remember of the specifics of this incident, on the other side of the park there was a ZSU-23. The pilot screwed up big time and the Ukrainian government covered up for it. Fairly normal operating procedure, even for established and stable democracies such as the US (the Afghan wedding party slaughter still stands out in my mind). And as I said, not even in the same ballpark as Russian media hiring actors to read from inventive scripts and then blasted across the airwaves in a country that has no effective media alternative.

 

Same citizens perhaps that did not agree with the Kiev regime’s actions and stood up to it? Same citizens perhaps that were more than willing to negotiate and to compromise with the Kiev regime before they were declared lazy, drunken scum and were shelled and starved into submission?

You are kidding, right? Please, please, please tell me that you're kidding.

 

I am not excusing Russian involvement into this nor denying their responsibility to what we are seeing now, however your complete inability to recognize the irresponsible actions of Kiev government (that were pretty much given a blank check by US and Europe) makes for a very one sided (and frankly dull) argument…

You are trying to put a square peg into the round hole here. I have a lot of negative things to say about the Ukrainian government and its handling of things in general and, like the Luhansk rocket attack,a specific incident. But since such criticism wasn't relevant to my point, it didn't enter into the discussion. I'll make my point clearer for you since you are having a hard time following my logic:

We would not be having a discussion about crucified babies or rocket attacks in Luhansk if Russia had not decided that it's interests were best served by invading Ukraine and creating chaos to further it's selfish interests. True or false? Answer very directly, please.

 

Our exposure to facts is limited by the information that is presented to us. The ability to read the news reports in a native language (along with being aware of cultural and historical aspects that come along with those) allows one to filter out the facts from propaganda and to reduce our availability bias based on comparing both sides of the reporting on said “facts” . That’s sort of the most basic concept of international studies and foreign policy analysis…

I'm a historian, so I approach things from a slightly different point of view. And that is to evaluate the widest range of information from the widest range of sources as possible while putting everything into historical context and historical trends. Being able to go speak a particular language is a bonus, but absolutely is not a requirement. As was just stated above, very well, if that were true then I couldn't understand the Holocaust because my German ist sehr schlecht.

I correctly laid out almost action for action what Russia would do in Ukraine if there were a pro-Western change of power. And I did it years before this crisis happened. Based on your thinking I must have made a lucky guess because I don't speak either Ukrainian or Russian.

Steve

[DreDay]

I just read a english translated interview to a twenty year old tank gunner recovering in a hospital after his tank got destroyed at Debaltseve.

It is long and full of details, about a lot of things that are being discussed in this thread.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/02/the-story-of-a-russian-soldiers-war-in-ukraine-we-all-knew-what-we-had-to-do-and-what-could-happen/

 

Yep. It has already been discussed in this thread a few pages back. It should also be noted that the interview is a bit controversial and no audio transcript has been produced to back it up. Some Russian pro-Donbass sources had come out stating that the factual details in that account are wrong.... not denying Russian involvement per say, just pointing out incorrect information about the details of such involvement in the interview. I personally don't know what to make of it - it is certainly worth considering... but with a good bit of caution...

[Battlefront.com]

Now to make this a little controversial – did the slaughter of Jews, Poles, and Russians in Western Ukraine during WW2 really hapen or is that just a Soviet (and now Russian) myth? Can anyone without access to both Russian and (West) Ukrainian side of this story make an educated decision on that? On a flip side - what about Gholodomor (sp?) – can that be accurately analyzed without having access to (Soviet) Russian and (anti-Soviet) Ukrainian reports?

Since this is a topic I've studied in considerable detail, though not recently for sure, I can say "yes" to all your questions. Official records are only one source of information, therefore their availability is not necessarily required to come to a reasonable conclusion about a specific event or topic.

An example is the official Soviet position for decades was that Katyn was perpetrated by the Nazis, the Nazis said it was the Soviets. Turns out the Nazis weren't lying about that one, and eventually Soviet documents were released that confirmed it. However, long before those documents were released there was ample evidence that the Soviets were responsible for the crime. So much so that when the documents were released it simply complimented and filled in a few gaps of the scholarly studies which had been conducted without it.

Oh, and I am quite aware of the complicity of Ukrainians in the Holocaust as I am the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, Italians, Danes, Dutch, and French. I've also studied the reasons for it at the individual and societal levels. I'm also aware the role the UK and US governments played in the delayed response to it and some of their actions after the war. And while I'm at it, the Vatican, various South American countries, etc.

Steve

[Desertor]

Sorry, I didn't realize it had been discussed already, in my opinion it is a real one, even if some details are not exact, I don't expect a young soldier sleeping and fighting in a tank having an all-around view of the situation.

But the addition of tiny facts makes it a very convincing narrative.

[DreDay]

Since this is a topic I've studied in considerable detail, though not recently for sure, I can say "yes" to all your questions. Official records are only one source of information, therefore their availability is not necessarily required to come to a reasonable conclusion about a specific event or topic.

An example is the official Soviet position for decades was that Katyn was perpetrated by the Nazis, the Nazis said it was the Soviets. Turns out the Nazis weren't lying about that one, and eventually Soviet documents were released that confirmed it. However, long before those documents were released there was ample evidence that the Soviets were responsible for the crime. So much so that when the documents were released it simply complimented and filled in a few gaps of the scholarly studies which had been conducted without it.

Oh, and I am quite aware of the complicity of Ukrainians in the Holocaust as I am the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, Italians, Danes, Dutch, and French. I'm also studied the reasons for it at the individual and societal levels. I'm also aware the role the UK and US governments played in the delayed response to it and some of their actions after the war. And while I'm at it, the Vatican, various South American countries, etc.

Steve

 

I am sorry Steve, I just fail to see your point here. I am not a historian nor was I planning to start a debate about UNA/OUN or Khatyn or Kholodomor. I personally have no interest in debating those topics, and that is not what my post was about.... As for your larger post above, I would love to reply to it (nay I would like to finish reading it first) when I have a couple of hours to spare and a fresh pot of coffee    I personally feel that those kinds of debates are best left for PMs - but I know that you don't like that route; so I will have to respect your wishes and would be obliged to give you a thoughtful response.