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lordhedgwich

Graphics suck?!!?!?!

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Aye, I dont care particularly if it lags behind. Or comes out in Combat mission 4. As long as it gets looked at and is a long term development goal.

 

Same, I wish Battlefront would do a Kickstarter or something, I would definitely contribute a hefty sum to see a significant engine change and project for a combat mission title, I believe they have said they have no interest in that though.

Edited by Raptorx7

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Again, ARMA is not just a shooter.  There are a number of people that use it at the same level as CM is at.  It was discussed several pages ago.  Not saying it better or worse than CM as a game, but the amount of ignorance around what other games can do is frustrating and I am worried will slowly allow those games to draw people away from CM.  In fact, looking at the number of new people coming to CM highlights that.

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Modding Arma and adding complex AI to combat mission are completely different things.

 

ARMA. Seriously. It's a shooter.

That mod provides an opponent that dynamically sets waypoints for hundreds of AI units based on its understanding of the battlefield.  Its understanding of the battlefield is simply cyclical sweeps of the battlefield and applying its logic against changing values.  Map creators can pre populate a map with values - for example strategic points - but the basic set up is to give the commander objectives.  It will then recon them, choose a group of units to achieve them, and set the waypoints accordingly.  If later sweeps of the battlefield present a changed situation - for example newly spotted units - it will set new waypoints.

 

If you can't understand how this is the basis for a more dynamic artificial opponent in a game like CM, I give up.

Edited by Jock Tamson

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That mod provides an opponent that dynamically sets waypoints for hundreds of AI units based on its understanding of the battlefield.  Its understanding of the battlefield is simply cyclical sweeps of the battlefield and applying its logic against changing values.  Map creators can pre populate a map with values - for example strategic points - but the basic set up is to give the commander objectives.  It will then recon them, choose a group of units to achieve them, and set the waypoints accordingly.  If later sweeps of the battlefield present a changed situation - for example newly spotted units - it will set new waypoints.

 

If you can't understand how this is the basis for any artificial opponent in a game like CM, I give up.

 

If you can't understand how coding an simulation level strategy games AI compared to a milsim shooter are two completely different things than I give up.

 

Just to add on to this, don't you think BFC would have added this apparently obvious AI logic to there games if it only took two weeks?

Edited by Raptorx7

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So the gist of this thread is that BFC needs to junk their current engine and spend the next several years developing a new one with the graphics of Arma 3 and the AI of Deep Blue.

And here I am thinking of 20 things I would rather see before either of those things.

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What ARMA does is open up is AI to modifications.  Some community guy still has to do it.  Its not easy and takes a long time to build a mod and then understand how to use it.  CM is much easier to build scenarios with.  But is much, much more limited in what you can do.  YOu have to have a very committed community and be committed yourself to learn and use the game.

 

ARMA is full tactical simulator at this point.  Anyone who thinks it is just a shooter is speaking from complete ignorance and a lack of following anything going on with the game.

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What ARMA does is open up is AI to modifications.  Some community guy still has to do it.  Its not easy and takes a long time to build a mod and then understand how to use it.  CM is much easier to build scenarios with.  But is much, much more limited in what you can do.  YOu have to have a very committed community and be committed yourself to learn and use the game.

 

ARMA is full tactical simulator at this point.  Anyone who thinks it is just a shooter is speaking from complete ignorance and a lack of following anything going on with the game.

 

I play ARMA 2 ACE and 3. I am not belittling it when I call it a "milsim shooter", however its just plain silly comparing it and combat mission.

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My point is if BFC doesn't do something, in anther 10 years we will still all be sitting here debating this.  The very same people with no one new.  And instead of the average age being 45, it will be 55.

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I play ARMA 2 ACE and 3. I am not belittling it when I call it a "milsim shooter", however its just plain silly comparing it and combat mission.

ACE has absolutely nothing to do with it.  ACE is the most basic mod.  Look at MCC Sandbox, HETMAN, or maybe even something out of the box like Zues.  If you aren't using any of them, you are only using a small % of what ARMA is capable of.

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My point is if BFC doesn't do something, in anther 10 years we will still all be sitting here debating this.  The very same people with no one new.  And instead of the average age being 45, it will be 55.

 

Thats the unfortunate thing isn't it?

 

However, the reasons have been repeated in this thread many times (Unfortunately I am getting deja vu from my steam thread ;)), unless BFC devotes a year or so of resources and abandons other projects for this advanced AI than it isn't going to happen. They do not have the time or money for an undertaking of this magnitude, Combat Mission is very much an "What you see is what you get" kind of game, if the AI is lacking play against a human player.

 

Edit: Yes I know what ARMA is capable of, and I have played ZEUS, once again comparing it to combat mission makes no sense.

Edited by Raptorx7

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So the gist of this thread is that BFC needs to junk their current engine and spend the next several years developing a new one with the graphics of Arma 3 and the AI of Deep Blue.

And here I am thinking of 20 things I would rather see before either of those things.

 

Yes, they need to junk their engine in the long term.

 

And come up with one that is better or buy off the shelf.

 

Not necessarily the graphics of arma 3 or the AI of deep blue. Lets just say the graphics of a game 10 years ago, and the AI and MP framework of something 20 years ago. That is a better benchmark than what we have now.

 

What people forget on here that in commerce the customer is always right. You provide the customer his product or he goes elsewhere. I am the customer. I am offering what I think should be there, and its not unreasonable as it is twenty year old technology and framework. F graphics, I dont care. I want MP framework and I want a lobby.

As I said in a previous post. When Eugen comes back to do wargame again and puts in the features of realism it promised to cater for the same military buff audience that CM does. These forums will have the same old sticks in the mud on chirping away at each other until it eventually gets confined to the archives of internet history.

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Hell you can even buy lobby software off the shelf that can start your game and autoconnect you at the click of a mouse on someone elses name.

Edited by Stagler

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If you can't understand how coding an simulation level strategy games AI compared to a milsim shooter are two completely different things than I give up.

 

Just to add on to this, don't you think BFC would have added this apparently obvious AI logic to there games if it only took two weeks?

Um, right.  That's Arma with the industry leading editor with triggers and scripting of a complexity that blow CM out the water.

 

 

Arma - has units

CM - has units

 

Arma - has groups of units with a command chain

CM - has groups of units with a command chain

 

Arma - has waypoints

Cm - has waypoints

 

Arma - has fog of war

CM - has fog of war

 

Arma- has a map

CM - has a map

 

Arma - has a TacAI

CM - has a TacAI

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Um, right.  That's Arma with the industry leading editor with triggers and scripting of a complexity that blow CM out the water.

 

 

Arma - has units

CM - has units

 

Arma - has groups of units with a command chain

CM - has groups of units with a command chain

 

Arma - has waypoints

Cm - has waypoints

 

Arma - has fog of war

CM - has fog of war

 

Arma- has a map

CM - has a map

 

Arma - has a TacAI

CM - has a TacAI

 

Combat Mission runs on the CMx3 Engine and OpenGL

 

ARMA runs on Bohemias Real Virtuality game engine

Edited by Raptorx7

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in commerce the customer is always right.

 

If you work in commerce you will also agree that on a great many occasions the customer has no friggin' idea what he is talking about either !

 

P

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I have a friend with Asperger syndrome. Think Sheldon on Big Bang Theory. He's forever bending my ear about how this company's products are designed all wrong, or how that company's business model is all wrong. He once found himself sitting at the same table with an editor for Consumer Reports magazine and spent the whole evening browbeating the poor guy over how the magazine tests its products all wrong. Also people are living their lives all wrong, raising their children all wrong, the government is governing all wrong. If only we'd all follow his advice on all matters the world would be such a happy place.

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ARMA is a bad example in this case as the scripting language is different. I am only using ARMA as an example of another game that the audience of CM likes to play and example of a player base that would be interested in combat mission but it is inaccessible and lacks basic single and multiplayer framework - not even covering graphics, and I am completely correct in this assertion.

 

@Pete, I dont work in commerce at all. But I am a customer, I paid my money for my product, and I get to have a say in the matter of my opinion on that product. No matter how hard people try to denigrate it or dismiss it. It is still there, and this thread has again demonstrated that I am not alone in my concerns.

I couldnt give two ****s about what you think I know about, but what I do know that I am lined up for 200 000 euros for a game I build in my spare time unpaid.

 

its also nice to see the old sticks rise out of the mud again to bleat on the fact that they dont like change or how they like to disregard others opinions.

Edited by Stagler

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So the gist of this thread is that BFC needs to junk their current engine and spend the next several years developing a new one with the graphics of Arma 3 and the AI of Deep Blue.

And here I am thinking of 20 things I would rather see before either of those things.

strawman

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It has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.  CM uses OpenGL, Arma uses DirectX.  So what?

 

Why is it so important that I mentioned OpenGL in that post?

 

My point still stands, the games run on completely different engines, therefore coding the AI like ARMA in Combat Mission, isn't a "two week" affair.

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Wargames like Combat Mission want to be niche, thats just the truth.

Yeah, because nothing motivates me more than not making money :D

The truth is that if I thought we could make a game 1/2 as good as Combat Mission and it would sell 10 times as much, I would do it in a heartbeat. Yeah, you heard that. Although I am passionate about the games I make, I would be even more passionate about retiring with a huge truckload of money. You should be thankful that we let our passion get in the way of our ambitions instead of being critical of it.

The developers fear to attract a bigger audience because this will mean more criticism and more support work.

Any game developer that can't accept criticism will not stay developing wargames for very long. Because when your best and most loyal customers shower you with hate and disdain at every opportunity, well... it's not for ever game developer.

The players fear to become "mainstream", they dont want the Company of Heroes "kiddies" to play "their" game too.

And now you contradict yourself, which isn't surprising since you have an illogical position.

By nature a smart game does not appeal to wide audiences. Just like smart TV or movies don't appeal to wide audiences. It is a fact of life and denying it doesn't change anything.

Steve

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Why is it so important that I mentioned OpenGL in that post?

 

My point still stands, the games run on completely different engines, therefore coding the AI like ARMA in Combat Mission, isn't a "two week" affair.

You are the only person who has said two weeks.  Nor do you know anything about coding.  Is it really such a leap to understand that the units in CM could have their waypoints set according to conditional logic rather than a time based plan?  Because the last time I looked, they were already doing it with triggers.

Edited by Jock Tamson

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You are the only person who has said two weeks.  Nor do you know anything about coding.  Is it really such a leap to understand that the units in CM could have their waypoints set according to conditional logic rather than a time based plan?  Because the last time I looked, they were already doing it with triggers.

 

I apologize for the two week quote, I must have misread one of your posts.

 

I know some coding from playing ARMA but you are right, I am no good at it really. However, they still both run on different engines and implementing that logic is obviously harder than you think it is seeing as BFC doesn't deem it a worthy thing to do because of money and time.

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