Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 ARMA is a bad example in this case as the scripting language is different.No, it's a bad example because Arma3 alone had a $50,000,000 budget. Any expectations that we can match what they have developed is bound to lead to profound disappointment. @Pete, I dont work in commerce at all. But I am a customer, I paid my money for my product, and I get to have a say in the matter of my opinion on that product.Absolutely! But that doesn't mean your opinion has any basis in reality. That is Pete's point and it is one I whole heartedly agree with.Look, it's my belief that you guys should spend about $300 per CM game because that's the amount of play time you get out of it. Now, that might be my belief... but how well do you think that belief would mesh with reality if I went over to the backend system and changed the pricing to be $300? Yup, belief and reality would have a rather ugly meeting engagement. No matter how hard people try to denigrate it or dismiss it. It is still there, and this thread has again demonstrated that I am not alone in my concerns.You aren't alone, but having 10 people or 1000 people holding an unrealistic and unobtainable opinion doesn't make it any more valuable than 1 person having the same opinion. I couldnt give two ****s about what you think I know about, but what I do know that I am lined up for 200 000 euros for a game I build in my spare time unpaid.That's great! Where can I download it from and where is the best place for me to tell me all about its failings? its also nice to see the old sticks rise out of the mud again to bleat on the fact that they dont like change or how they like to disregard others opinions.I don't disregard your opinions. In fact, I agree with almost all of them. Except the part about them being practical to the extent you do.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) @Pete, I dont work in commerce at all. But I am a customer, I paid my money for my product, and I get to have a say in the matter of my opinion on that product. No matter how hard people try to denigrate it or dismiss it. It is still there, and this thread has again demonstrated that I am not alone in my concerns. I couldnt give two ****s about what you think I know about, but what I do know that I am lined up for 200 000 euros for a game I build in my spare time unpaid. Just because someone has an opinion doesn't mean it is correct. I'm not saying whether I think you are correct in your opinions or not, but if you don't have a full and complete understanding about how CM's code works and how things are done within that context then you are arguing from a perspective of ignorance and assumption. The only one who knows how CM's code works is Charles and the only one who has learned the code well enough to become a programmer for BFC is Phil. Charles has never said anything publicly, that I'm aware of, about the inner workings of CM's code. The only things that I recall Phil ever saying about CM's code publicly was along the lines of how unique it is and how different it is to anything else that he had dealt with previously as far as coding things in the game. So while you certainly have the option of stating your case, you could probably also demonstrate a little humility with regards to your lack of knowledge of how things actually get done within the context of the code that CM is based upon. Making simple comparisons to other games is probably an exercise in irrelevance since CM's code appears to be a unique creation of Charles and not really similar to anything else 'on the market'. Edited to add: Do'h, ninja'd by the man himself. Edited February 20, 2015 by ASL Veteran 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I apologize for the two week quote, I must have misread one of your posts. I know some coding from playing ARMA but you are right, I am no good at it really. However, they still both run on different engines and implementing that logic is obviously harder than you think it is seeing as BFC doesn't deem it a worthy thing to do because of money and time.Correct. If we were given $1m out of the blue this is NOT where we would spend it. An everlasting truth in wargaming since the earliest days... wargamers demand unobtainable good AI, but they are absolutely unwilling to pay for it. Meaning, AI improvements makes someone who already bought the game happier, but it doesn't result in additional game sales. Since AI programming is extremely expensive for even modest improvements, we (like other wargame designers) do the best we can within the economic reality.BTW, we have a professional AI programmer in the guise of Phil. That is what he did for a living before coming to Battlefront. If there is anybody that knows the limitations of AI programming, and their cost, it is him. Which is why when I ask him "how long to implement this seemingly easy and straight forward AI improvement design" he gives me back an estimate that both of us know is too high to ever make it feasible.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 strawman Lie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Tamson Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Lie. So they would need to junk the engine to add more condition based dynamism to waypoint setting. Even though it is already being done to some degree with triggers? Like, I say, strawman. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I would think that based on what is being discussed, that the comment.... "So the gist of this thread is that BFC needs to junk their current engine and spend the next several years developing a new one with the graphics of Arma 3 and the AI of Deep Blue." ...is a strawman. Or at least an exaggeration of the point that is being argued. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Eh, CM has been compared to ARMA endlessly, and the comparison to chess AI has also been made. So I call bull**** on your strawman claim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Tamson Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I would think that based on what is being discussed, that the comment.... "So the gist of this thread is that BFC needs to junk their current engine and spend the next several years developing a new one with the graphics of Arma 3 and the AI of Deep Blue." ...is a strawman. Or at least an exaggeration of the point that is being argued. Ignore him, he's just pissed at the number of bugs he missed in Beta. Personally I wish they would spend my money on professional testers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Ignore him, he's just pissed at the number of bugs he missed in Beta. Personally I wish they would spend my money on professional testers. Your comments are just as wrong as you think Vanirs are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Tamson Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Your comments are just as wrong as you think Vanirs are. Well, I don't particularly like being called a liar by obnoxious forumites. Edited February 20, 2015 by Jock Tamson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Ignore him, he's just pissed at the number of bugs he missed in Beta. Personally I wish they would spend my money on professional testers. Wow. Aren't you clever. Please do continue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Well, I don't particularly like being called a liar by obnoxious forumites. I never called you a liar, but I can taste the hypocrisy. Edited February 20, 2015 by Raptorx7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Tamson Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I never called you a liar, but I can taste the hypocrisy. I am not referring to you. Search the page for "lie". Up to that point, it had been a civil discussion. Edited February 20, 2015 by Jock Tamson 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Easy now lads. Let's not get personal.I do want to ask for an apology from Jock about the smear of our testers or how we handle them. It was as uncalled for as it is offensive. Our testers are a cut above the rest, for sure, and trying to tear them apart to prove some point that I can't even understand is not the right way to go.As a fact, Arma3 has legions of professional and unpaid testers. Is it bug free? No. As a former QA Manager, with paid tester staff under me, I know why that is the case. I also know that our unpaid testers are better than the ones that were drawing salary. Not to say my old staff weren't good testers, because they were. But when you've paid someone to bang on the same game for 8 hours a day for months I can promise you they aren't as sharp as a fresh tester coming on with 1 hour's worth of experience.But I'm sorry. I'm interjecting reality into the rants again. My bad!Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I find the graphics perfectly acceptable. If anything better than Red Thunder. My graphics card lets me run at pretty much the top of the scale and does so without any problems. My only minor issue is the waypoint lines could be slightly bolder so they are easier to see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 And for the record, I don't see much distinction between the term "strawman" and "lie". They both involve an accusation of deliberate deception. So with that in mind, I would posit that nobody use either term and whomever has to accept that they shouldn't have.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Tamson Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Easy now lads. Let's not get personal. I do want to ask for an apology from Jock about the smear of our testers or how we handle them. It was as uncalled for as it is offensive. Our testers are a cut above the rest, for sure, and trying to tear them apart to prove some point that I can't even understand is not the right way to go. As a fact, Arma3 has legions of professional and unpaid testers. Is it bug free? No. As a former QA Manager, with paid tester staff under me, I know why that is the case. I also know that our unpaid testers are better than the ones that were drawing salary. Not to say my old staff weren't good testers, because they were. But when you've paid someone to bang on the same game for 8 hours a day for months I can promise you they aren't as sharp as a fresh tester coming on with 1 hour's worth of experience. But I'm sorry. I'm interjecting reality into the rants again. My bad! Steve Sorry Steve, I work in software myself so I understand the approach. However if I am called a liar, I am probably going to be unnecessarily offensive in return. Happy to retract the "strawman" allegation and agree that Vanir's summation of the thread was a gross exaggeration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 And I do retract my accusation of lying. You were simply mistaken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMike Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Long thread. Do the graphics suck? Not in my book! Could they be better, sure. But given the limited resources of BFC, I think they are doing a helluva good job. A new engine? That would be great fer sure. I really do hope BFC will make the effort some time in the near future. I will wait for it patiently and sure be around when it comes. Here is to many years of having a great time with a great game with a lot of great people. And may there be many more! Cheers! *steps of his soapbox now* Edited February 20, 2015 by PanzerMike 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMike Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yeah, because nothing motivates me more than not making money The truth is that if I thought we could make a game 1/2 as good as Combat Mission and it would sell 10 times as much, I would do it in a heartbeat. Yeah, you heard that. Although I am passionate about the games I make, I would be even more passionate about retiring with a huge truckload of money. You should be thankful that we let our passion get in the way of our ambitions instead of being critical of it. Steve Steve, will you marry me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guetapens Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Stanley Kubrick invented AI that was capable of running a space ship mission and everything that that entails including managing resources, dodging asteroids and ejecting foecal matter plus it could play chess at the same time and always win as well as deciding upon and executing a strategy to kill human beings but make it look like an accident AND THAT WAS IN THE 1960'S. Edited February 20, 2015 by guetapens 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Stanley Kubrick invented AI that was capable of running a space ship mssion and playing chess at the same time as well as deciding upon and executing a strategy to kill human beings but make it look like an accident AND THAT WAS IN THE 1960'S. Let's not forget that it could read lips! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guetapens Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Let's not forget that it could read lips! indeed : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well, this thread got big. Personally I think that the AI (both tac and strat) would be leaps and bounds better if it were exposed to the community. There are people with talent and time who would have an interest in making the AI in CM really good. Issue is, once again, that you can't just magically open the AI up for users to mess with. (technically you could, but I always got the feeling that BFC worries a lot about DRM and piracy) Point is though. You can't just say "here is the ai" you need to have it exposed in a logical way to the user. Civilization does this via LUA scripting, and while I think a similar setup would be beneficial for the CM AI. It can;t just be magically be done. It requires work to do that. However, I also don't believe that CM needs a dynamic Strat AI. I;ve designed 3 scenarios and with the tools we have now you can do some pretty complicated stuff and get the AI to act pretty intelligently. The farther down this road we go the better the AI will get. Right now we have triggers which gives you a ton more power and the more robust that system gets the more interesting things scenario designers will be to do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Happy to retract the "strawman" allegation and agree that Vanir's summation of the thread was a gross exaggeration.Thank you! And I do retract my accusation of lying. You were simply mistaken And thank you!Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.