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Free Copy AAR: c3k vs DMS. No DMS.

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c3k,

 

If Fortune truly favors the bold, then you are her poster child! If my mind is going 17 directions simultaneously from devouring your account and looking at all the wonderful annotated pics, I can scarcely imagine what it must be like fighting this rip snorter of a crazy battle. And there I'm going to let my plaudits lie.

 

What I'd really like, though, is to understand several things you mentioned. Your Red Team A got macerated by 30 mm airbursts. Fired from what, please? My understanding was that RUS 30 mm auto cannon shells were all impact fuzed, ditto the AGS-17 and such projectiles. To my knowledge, the only airburst munitions RUS has are the Ainet on your tanks and from the 100 mm gun of the BMP-3M. Also, I'm not computing the smoke you're talking about. I know the self protective smoke grenades block visual and IR, but I was under the impression artillery delivered smoke didn't. Has that changed? If not, then why does it seem you're saying it does? Given all the thermals in play, I don't see why it'd matter much if it can't block thermals. What am I missing here?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

Thanks. Every turn had a LOT of action.

 

Your questions:

 

In no particular order...

 

Red Team A's nemesis was the BTR to the left of the bridge (from my perspective). The one that later got destroyed by the 40mm grenades fired by Doomvee.

 

The BTR-82 has the 2A72 30mm cannon. It fires the same family of 30mm ammo as many other Russian vehicles. The fuze is the A-670. See http://bulcomersks.com/index.php/military-products/ammunition-components/50-ammunition-components/fuzes/430-fuze-a-670m

 

It is dual purpose AAA and ground target capable. The airbust fuzing is part of its capabilities. If it CANNOT be fuzed to airburst at ground targets, that would be surprising and need some solid references.

 

 

Arty smoke can, indeed, include counter-thermal aerosols. Traditionally, the US has not used that type of smoke (for defensive suites or on-call) because our adversaries (Iraq 1991, 2003, Afghanistan through now) do not have the thermal vision devices we have (at least, as widely used). So, we've used optically opaque, thermally transparent, smoke. Blind them, let us see. In a fight against a tier 1 or 2 power, the need to block thermals would mean that the appropriate smoke would be used.

 

Regards,

 

Ken

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c3k, did you finally talk with DMS about that Bradley which started each turn with a laser warning?  Did he have something in position causing that or is a bug, as you musing about or did he still have something late game that could laser designate the Bradley?

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^^^

 

Great reminder! I have not. I won't have a chance to check for a few more days. DMS and I have exchanged the passwords we used, so I'll just load his turns and see if any of his units with a laser designator/ranger had LOS to it.

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Probably my ATGMs lased it. :) They could see Bradleys for few seconds several times, before they disapeared in clouds of smoke.

 

Abrams that was lased through smoke - probably by Krizantema.

 

Bradly rushing to my spotters position in the end of the battle - was lased by them. They also lased some targets in the middle of the battle.

Edited by DMS

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c3k,

 

Thanks for your reply. I had no idea we had deployed broadband obscurant smoke and thought the only artillery smoke in game was HC. Regarding the 30 mm airbursts, I believe someone at BFC made a mistake. A major one.

 

Fuze A-670M is PD, with just enough delay (0.002-0.004s) to get into the target and explode. The "distant arming" refers merely to the fact that the fuze arms a minimum of 20 meters away from the firing point and may not arm until as far away as 100 meters. This is in no way equivalent to or even imitative of things like Ainet. And 9-14 seconds after being fired, the fuze initiates and destroys the shell. Simply put, the BTR-82's 30 mm gun is operating the same way as the 25 mm Bushmaster on a Bradley. In fact, functionally speaking, it's exactly the same as what came out of a Sherman's barrel during WW II after the command, "HE, Delay" was issued as part of the fire order. Consequently, as things stand, every Russian or Ukrainian vehicle armed with the cannon 2A42, 2A-38 and 2A-72, whether firing HEI or HE-T, is affected. Further, this also applies to the Mi-28/HAVOC and the Ka-50/HOKUM. 

Also, I think BFC left out a smoke capability on the Abrams I didn't know it had. This may apply to other US AFVs as well. Quote's listed here under Countermeasures.

"A smoke screen can also be laid by an engine operated system."

 

Speaking of smoke, I see we finally have WP (don't have CMSF, so may be in already). Do I understand that the game treats an Antipersonnel mission as being VT fuzed? What I'm driving at is something one the veterans talked about as the recipe for dealing with entrenched troops, mixed HE (not VT?) and WP. If I'm right, there is presently no way to shoot such a mission. I know the US doesn't have DPICM in CMBS (I think it should), but even if the US does do away with it IRL, the Russians and Ukrainians should still have it. Such a capability is very much militarily significant.

 

Finally, does the US still follow WW II practice and issue ground mounts for .50 BMG and MK-19 weapons on Hummers?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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Interesting. That same fuse is listed as being used for the same round when fired by the Tunguska in anti-air.

 

Perhaps it needs to be adjusted.

 

Some more references would be needed...

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c3k,

 

While I hunt for further proof, take a look at the marvelous Rheinmetall presentation I found on new ammo developments for 25, 30 and 35 mm guns. Pages 4-10 are especially pertinent. In looking at this brief, I'd say there have been some revolutionary improvements in ammunition.

 

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/buckley.pdf

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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Regarding the 30 mm airbursts, I believe someone at BFC made a mistake. A major one.

 

I wonder if the 2017-time frame of CMBS is responsible for the apparent increase in capability compared to our 2014/2015 perspective?

 

Consider that only the 82A is capable of airbusts in the game, while the 80A is not - even though both of have the same 2A72 gun. Perhaps that's how BFC foresees the 82A getting upgraded over the next 2 years - while at the same time treating the 80A as a legacy platform being phased out.

Edited by The Louch

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Programable fuze for 2А72 exists, I read about it several sources in Russian. The question is how much ammo is available. But first echelon forces woul be equipped with best weapons, in my opinion.

Edited by DMS

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I wonder if the 2017-time frame of CMBS is responsible for the apparent increase in capability compared to our 2014/2015 perspective?

 

Consider that only the 82A is capable of airbusts in the game, while the 80A is not - even though both of have the same 2A72 gun. Perhaps that's how BFC foresees the 82A getting upgraded over the next 2 years - while at the same time treating the 80A as a legacy platform being phased out.

 

BTR-80A upgraded with the necessary fire control system to program the ammunition would be most of the way to a BTR-82A (BTR-82AM, in fact).  Programmable ammunition doesn't depend on the gun/ammo combo alone.

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