Optics on Russian small arms?

[Saferight]

I know there is night optics but why nothing for the day? Does this put them at disadvantage when compared to the Americans widespread use of scopes on their small arms?

 

I thought optics were beginning to see more widespread use on Russian army AKs and RPKs in recent years. So are they still lagging behind in that area and that is reflected in CMBS?

 

[VladimirTarasov]

Optics are being deployed but not all units will have them possibly in 2017 they will though, In a war against NATO and Ukraine the best troops would be deployed which would have the scopes and weapon sights. 

[Capt. Toleran]

I would love to see optics -- whenever I watch the real-life optics in the many conflicts world-wide, a nice set of optics on an AK to me says either merc, special forces (e.g. Spetsnaz) or a well-funded volunteer (e.g. some jihadi's from Chechnya in Syria, etc.).  Open sights seems a little ghetto at this point for high-level soldiers at the point of the spear, like VladimirTarasov said.

[HUSKER2142]

 

I know there is night optics but why nothing for the day? Does this put them at disadvantage when compared to the Americans widespread use of scopes on their small arms?

 

I thought optics were beginning to see more widespread use on Russian army AKs and RPKs in recent years. So are they still lagging behind in that area and that is reflected in CMBS?

 

 

I described what the situation currently in the Russian army with optical sights and complexes.

 

 

Я описывал какая ситуация данный момент в армии РФ с оптическими прицелами и комплексами .

 

 

 

 

Optics.

There are 2-4 1P63 collimator sights per squad. It depends on commander how they would be distributed along the men (e. g. 1st and 2nd patoons consist most of the contract operators, means they’d get 4 sights per unit, rather then 3rd platoon with recruit men, who get 2 sights per unit). There are units fully complected with 4 sights per squad. Usually, there are 25-40 sights per company.

There are no helmet-mounted NVG’s in units, but many firearm-mounted scopes ( 1P51 “NSPU-3” ), 3-5 units per squad, 30-50 per company.

 

!!! Some of contract operators buying themselves modifications for their firearms, e. g. optics (Western too), tactical grips, rail systems and so on. !!!

 

Some of HQ units bying themselves a thermal-imaging devices.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116715-cm-black-sea-–-beta-battle-report-russian-side/?p=1564057

[wee]

 Open sights seems a little ghetto at this point for high-level soldiers at the point of the spear, like VladimirTarasov said.

 

AK iron sights are actually quite good and effective for fast paced combat and engaging targets quickly up to 75m if you know how to use them. From my opinnion, pretty fast to take rough aim, better in low light environment than diopter sights and don't cover too much target area as some iron sight designs do (like most of the diopter models). Also very robust after they are set, no need to worry to lose the zero.

 

They are not so great for precise shooting for extended distances, but the platform was never even designed for such purpose.

[Kieme(ITA)]

 but the platform was never even designed for such purpose.

 

Amen. I shot some AK-47s time ago, and they had all sorts of items attached (or tried to) by their owners.

Not only the extensions needed to attach such items were bulky, they were heavy, uneasy to detach (some required a screwdriver) and didn't fit the shape of the gun (making some moviments hard and unconfortable).

 

A great weapon is the AK assault rifle, but flashlights, sights, laser pointers, whatever, are not its thing...

 

The american M4 is the opposite when it comes to attachments.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Capt. Toleran]

Agreed, though I found that though the AK platforms on the ranges I have been on (with optics at 100 yards) tend to not shoot match MOA, they don't jam 1/10th as much as the more accurate AR platforms I have seen across calibers.  AR's just seem to continuously jam, and this is with an owner who was meticulous and now a licensed firearms dealer here in CA.  He definitely kept his guns cleaned and lubed, so if his AR's are messing up regularly, I can only imagine in the dirty field.  But they sure are accurate

[Saferight]

I described what the situation currently in the Russian army with optical sights and complexes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/116715-cm-black-sea-–-beta-battle-report-russian-side/?p=1564057

 

 

Are the 1p29 scopes from private purchases of the soldiers? or are these issued along with 1p63?

[Saferight]

Amen. I shot some AK-47s time ago, and they had all sorts of items attached (or tried to) by their owners.

Not only the extensions needed to attach such items were bulky, they were heavy, uneasy to detach (some required a screwdriver) and didn't fit the shape of the gun (making some moviments hard and unconfortable).

 

 

i've found AK series rifles with the proper scope mount and optics just fine. does'nt take a screw driver just a clamp. alot of the pics of tacical'd up AK's in the hands spetsnaz in the caucasus and the "green men" don't look too unwieldy or incapable of being on par with a M4 (except perhaps accuracy but that is debatable).

[HUSKER2142]

Are the 1p29 scopes from private purchases of the soldiers? or are these issued along with 1p63?

 

1P63 sights are given by army as a part of equipment, 1P29 scopes are rarely met of their bad design. Some contract operators buy themselves Russian 1P76, NPZ PK-1, Cobra, PK-A, etc. Оptics or Western EOTech, Aimpoint, Bushnell and etc.

 

Прицел 1П63 выдаётся армией , прицел 1П29 очень редко встретишь из-за неудачной конструкции . Некоторые солдаты на контракной службе приобретают за свой счёт такие прицелы как 1П76 , НПЗ ПК-1 , "Кобра", ПК-А и т.д. Из западных прицелов ЕОTech , Aimpoint  ,  Bushnell и т.д.

 

[LukeFF]

AK iron sights are actually quite good and effective for fast paced combat and engaging targets quickly up to 75m if you know how to use them. From my opinion, pretty fast to take rough aim, better in low light environment than diopter sights and don't cover too much target area as some iron sight designs do (like most of the diopter models). Also very robust after they are set, no need to worry to lose the zero.

 

They are not so great for precise shooting for extended distances, but the platform was never even designed for such purpose.

 

Indeed. With basic iron sights the AK is a reasonably accurate platform in semi-auto mode, and with the AK-74 the accuracy is much more manageable. In fact, I got to shoot my 74 for the first time today (built from a Bulgarian parts kit), and the two things I took away from shooting it were (1) that increased accuracy and (2) the recoil is much more manageable than a 47 - it's practically like shooting an AR-15. 

Edited February 15, 2015 by LukeFF

[wee]

Indeed. With basic iron sights the AK is a reasonably accurate platform in semi-auto mode, and with the AK-74 the accuracy is much more manageable. In fact, I got to shoot my 74 for the first time today (built from a Bulgarian parts kit), and the two things I took away from shooting it were (1) that increased accuracy and (2) the recoil is much more manageable than a 47 - it's practically like shooting an AR-15. 

 

Hello Luke and Congratulations for your latest build.

 

I've shot Bulgarian made (Arsenal) AK-74M variant vith commercial ammo. The recoil impulse was so low and short that first time I pulled the trigger, I believed that only the primer went off without igniting the powder. After a second, I realised "wait, carrier came back and I saw empty case flying". I checked the magazine, one cartridge was missing from the top and the chamber was empty. 

 

Recoil impulse was significantly lower than with various x39mm AKs and even lower than with my 5.56mm AR15 with rifle lenght gas system (S&W upper & lower + Bushmaster 20" goverment profile 1-7"  barrel).

 

Incredibly pleasant to shoot.

[Stagler]

VDV issue 1P63 and 1P29 quite widely. This has been demonstrated in recent pictures from Crimea. Issue of such sights in MSV is not as near as common.

[agusto]

AK iron sights are actually quite good and effective for fast paced combat and engaging targets quickly up to 75m if you know how to use them. From my opinnion, pretty fast to take rough aim, better in low light environment than diopter sights and don't cover too much target area as some iron sight designs do (like most of the diopter models). Also very robust after they are set, no need to worry to lose the zero.

 

They are not so great for precise shooting for extended distances, but the platform was never even designed for such purpose.

 

Many modern rifles have both - iron sight and optics. The Steyr AUG i had during my service had a 1,5 x magnifying scope for targets up 300 meters and rough iron sight on top of the scope for close range engagements. The optics were supposed for accurate semi automatic fire, the iron sights for bursts at targets that suddenly pop up at close range.

[HUSKER2142]

VDV issue 1P63 and 1P29 quite widely. This has been demonstrated in recent pictures from Crimea. Issue of such sights in MSV is not as near as common.

 

I served in the mechanized infantry troops (MSV), had to serve in many parts of the military. So I described the situation with optical sights. In army now a lot of money is invested.

 

Я служу в мотострелковых войсках ( МСВ ) , приходилось служить во многих военных частях . Поэтому я описал ситуацию с оптическими прицелами . В армию сейчас очень много денег вкладывают .

 

Edited February 16, 2015 by HUSKER2142

[db_zero]

I have a Saiga 7.62x39 and Serbian AK47. As mentioned they are not really made for hanging a bunch of stuff on. I have a BP02 for scopes and optics, but its not the optimum solution. I replaced the dust cover on my Saiga with a Texas Weapons dogleg cover that has a rail to mount optics. I also bought the rail mounted peep sight which I really like.

Ill probably buy or build an AK that uses the smaller 5.45 caliber bullets. I like the 7.62x39. Haven't shot the Serbian AK yet. I have shot the Saiga quite a bit and its a fine rifle especially once I added the dogleg as it really facilitates optics and the peep sight setup really is an improvement on the short radius sight setup from the factory. I think of my Saiga as an M1 Carbine on steroids.

Optics aside I find the magazine release of any AK series I've handled to be clunky when compared to an AR. You can use a tactical sling and easily drop and replace a magazine with an AR. The AK not so much.

Edited February 16, 2015 by db_zero

[nsKb]

I agree that Russian infantry should probably have more optics on their weapons.

 

How common are suppressors in the Russian armed forces? 

[Saferight]

I agree that Russian infantry should probably have more optics on their weapons.

 

How common are suppressors in the Russian armed forces?

Alot of akms with pbs-1 suppressors are issued to recon troops still.

[wee]

Alot of akms with pbs-1 suppressors are issued to recon troops still.

 

Yes, which was quite pleasant to recognize during the Crimean crisis (if I dare to say). Me and AKMS have special relationship...

 

During Soviet Afghanistan conflict there was 1-2 silenced AKMS in various VDV/Spetznaz/recon squads. Still the same seemed to be the doctrine during the Crimean invasion last spring. AKMSs were regulary seen in the hands of "polite green men". Russians have the 57-N-213U with 12.6g bullet with V0 of 300 m/s in their inventory. 

 

7.62x39mm seems to be far from obsolete in Russian inventory I presume. Latest cartridge designs have been made in the early 2000s at my knowledge.

[db_zero]

Agreed, though I found that though the AK platforms on the ranges I have been on (with optics at 100 yards) tend to not shoot match MOA, they don't jam 1/10th as much as the more accurate AR platforms I have seen across calibers.  AR's just seem to continuously jam, and this is with an owner who was meticulous and now a licensed firearms dealer here in CA.  He definitely kept his guns cleaned and lubed, so if his AR's are messing up regularly, I can only imagine in the dirty field.  But they sure are accurate

I don't think the AR platform will never completely shake the image of being unreliable. I have the same sort of mentality-I always thought the AR was a cranky platform, yet personally after thousands of rounds fired through a Colt, S&W MP15 and Daniel Defense, I've never enrountered a single failure I often run them hard and hot.

 

I have seen 2 others who did have issues. One was using Russian steel case ammo with was probably the issue. The other had a spring that was slightly bent.

 

Alot of people customize or build their ARs and that might cause issues that would need to be resolved.

 

Personally all the out of the box AR's I've used have been flawless. I took my Daniel Defense straight out of the box, didn't clean it and fired off hundreds of rounds in rapid fire and its was flawless and very accurate. As much as I have the impression in my mind the AR is not as reliable as the AK and that is true, I've never encountered an issue either. Maybe I need to bury it in the mud or pour talcum powder in it...

Edited February 16, 2015 by db_zero

[wee]

My AR15 has never been an issue too. Goes bang and shoots straight every time I pull the trigger. I clean it quite seldom, but always run it wet. Always, with generous amount of ATF as a lube. 

 

Though beign reliable in civilian use, military environment and battlefied conditions especially will be a totally different ballgame. That will put all the weapon systems to the ultimate test, not the civilian shootingrange or service environment, IMHO.

[db_zero]

My AR15 has never been an issue too. Goes bang and shoots straight every time I pull the trigger. I clean it quite seldom, but always run it wet. Always, with generous amount of ATF as a lube. 

 

Though beign reliable in civilian use, military environment and battlefied conditions especially will be a totally different ballgame. That will put all the weapon systems to the ultimate test, not the civilian shootingrange or service environment, IMHO.

Agree with all of the above. You could abuse an AK in ways you could never get away with doing to an AR. You could also issue an AK to illiterate peasants with little instructions and it will work after years of abuse.

 

I think that with just a few modifications the old AK-47 could still keep up with the latest stuff out there-

 

1. Replace the dust cover with a more modern one with a rail mounting system.

 

2. Use a rear diopeter sight

 

3. Replace the wooden furniture with lighter wieght materials.

 

4. Redesign the magazine release. Make it like the AR where you can release the mag quickly.

 

5. Add attachment points for modern sling systems.

[HUSKER2142]

I agree that Russian infantry should probably have more optics on their weapons.

 

How common are suppressors in the Russian armed forces? 

 

 

As silenced weapons, still in use are AKMS/AKM with PBS-1, but on par with them using AS VAL and Vintorez. AK-74M with silencer is not so common, I would say - rare. In motorized/mechanized infantry(MSV) and armored(tank) brigades such weapons are in use only by recon companies and recon battalions.

 

 

Из оружия бесшумной стрельбы используемое в войсках , всё ещё много АКМС/АКМ с ПБС-1 , но на равне с ними используется АС ВАЛ , Винторез . АК-74М с глушителем редко встречаемый . В мотострелковых и в танковых бригадах , таким оружием обладают только разведовательные роты и батальоны .

 

 

 

 

[wee]

Agree with all of the above. You could abuse an AK in ways you could never get away with doing to an AR. You could also issue an AK to illiterate peasants with little instructions and it will work after years of abuse.

 

I think that with just a few modifications the old AK-47 could still keep up with the latest stuff out there-

 

1. Replace the dust cover with a more modern one with a rail mounting system.

 

2. Use a rear diopeter sight

 

3. Replace the wooden furniture with lighter wieght materials.

 

4. Redesign the magazine release. Make it like the AR where you can release the mag quickly.

 

5. Add attachment points for modern sling systems.

 

I think both of the systems are brilliant and battle proven. Both systems have their own advantages and disadvantages.

 

But one thing I can say for sure to the people who might ask my opinnion, which one to buy? I always say, that if you want to buy a "rifle" and train "rifle shooting", don't buy traditional AK/AKM variant, buy AR15 instead, which has better characteristics for such shooting.  

 

Many of the improvements you describe have been modelled in Finnish M62 and M95 assault rifles, Galils and AK12. Redesigning magazine release might be little problematic, but you can release the empty magazine in emergency very quickly by first hitting the release lever with full magazine and with same movement pushing the empty magazine away with full one. You most likely know the drill.

Edited February 17, 2015 by wee