Jump to content

pnzrldr, request your professional opinion, please. Is a 4 second kill doable?


John Kettler

Recommended Posts

pnzrldr,

 

In a QB for which I have the Save, I observed a complete Kill Chain occur in four (4) seconds. NO LOS from anyone but my tank, which had zero LOS until it Hunted forward and cleared terrain mask and foliage LOS block. While moving, buttoned, it saw a T-90AM at what I subsequently determined to be a range of 654 meters, lased and fired. First shot kill. Veteran vs Veteran. T-90AM got no shot off at all. I know our guys are super well trained, but to me, that seems ridiculously fast, even with SABOT up the spout. And I'm not sure I believe that, either. I'd think AMP would be the default round. Would very much appreciate your thoughts on this. Original post is on CMBS Tech Support.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not panzrldr, but I was a Panzer Leader.  That's  totally legit, especially if you're talking about "short" fire commands vs the full cycle.  Also speaking as a tanker type person, hostile armor at 650ish meters is a major emotional event, as strong as modern armor is, something shooting from sub 1 KM has a good chance of making a righteous mess of your day.

 

Also worth noting that the M1A2 especially can do very short engagement.  If the gunner spotted it in the frontal arch, short engagement.  If the TC spotted it via CITV, he can literally drop the gunner crosshairs on target with a button press.

 

Also likely not simulated, but at 650 meters, the M829 family of rounds has virtually no deviation if properly boresighted.  So the range/lasing aspect could have been ommitted with a good crew.  

 

(which is to say in terms of fire commands "TANK! IDENTIFIED! UP! FIRE! TARGET!"  vs "Gunner sabot tank. Identified 654 meters. Up. Fire. On the way. Target cease fire")

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

but to me, that seems ridiculously fast, even with SABOT up the spout. And I'm not sure I believe that, either. I'd think AMP would be the default round

 

Missed this.  The "battle carry" round usually reflects the sort of threat environment, and is usually mixed across the platoon/company.  Which is to say, it's Iraq 2004, we're all carrying HEAT rounds, while in a tank heavy environment something like a 2 sabot to 2 AMP rounds per platoon, or even having the spearhead platoon just roll all sabot is realistic.   

 

Sabot isn't a bad choice either way, it may not catastrophically kill BMP type targets as often, but it'll still ruin the vehicle pretty easily, and I'd rather kill a BMP with a suboptimal round, than ping an AMP off of a tank.  Also worth remembering the Abrams doesn't lack for anti-troop MGs (and honestly anti-light armor with the CROWS), so the AMP isn't always the go-to round.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

panzersaurkrautwerfer,

 

My mind's reeling so badly right now, I hardly know what to feel, still less think. Most interesting info regarding deliberate spread of battle carry ammo types for a platoon entering combat.

 

Sublime, 

 

Good to know, but I think it's a bad way to go in terms of a sim. Maybe an AI coin flip would be indicated in the next patch? 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sounds like a game of chance at 650m, i.e, were T-90AM's vision cones pointed towards the M1A2 things could have been differently. Also, what do experience levels actually represent? Say would a "Veteran" be someone career, or someone who's spent a year in the army?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, what do experience levels actually represent? Say would a "Veteran" be someone career, or someone who's spent a year in the army?

 

Check page 91 of the v3.00 manual. For instance, about Veteran it has this to say: "Professional soldiers with standard military training, and first hand combat experience. Alternatively, it can be professional soldiers who have trained to a slightly higher standard than Regulars, yet lack combat experience."

 

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

panzersaurkrautwerfer,

 

My mind's reeling so badly right now, I hardly know what to feel, still less think. Most interesting info regarding deliberate spread of battle carry ammo types for a platoon entering combat.

 

Sublime, 

 

Good to know, but I think it's a bad way to go in terms of a sim. Maybe an AI coin flip would be indicated in the next patch? 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

It's not hard to imagine that in a tank heavy environment everybody switches to AP, then when you're fairly sure the tanks have been taken care off, you switch back to the regular mix. It also depends on how you organize the tanks. If like often happens in Combat mission, you split up a tank platoon and send individual tanks to different locations (bad idea but whatever), then they will carry whatever ammo they deem is necessary for the environment.

 

But then there's still the problem that the first shot, which is most likely AP in a tank environment, is used against lighter vehicles and is always highly successful, right? I don't think I've ever seen a tank shoot at a lighter vehicle, over-penetrate, and end up not killing it.

 

 

Panzersaurkrautwerfer explained how it's possible to react for tanks so quickly. To summarize, it's technology and training. Technology allows the vehicle itself to aim and shoot very quickly. The training gives you multiple ways to engage targets. There's a long way of calling out targets and calling for permission. Then there's an intermediate way when things need to be sped up in certain situations. And finally, there's a very fast way in which the gunner/commander is given the freedom to decide to shoot straight away, enabling them to shoot within seconds, pretty much as fast as the vehicle is capable of aiming and firing.

Edited by BlackAlpha
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Sounds like a game of chance at 650m, i.e, were T-90AM's vision cones pointed towards the M1A2 things could have been differently

 

Pretty much.  at ranges like that, the first one to spot is going to be the one to walk away from it.  One of the things that's tricky about CMBS is it's hard to know who's looking at what/where and how much sensor quality is degrading spotting

 

 

 

But then there's still the problem that the first shot, which is most likely AP in a tank environment, is used against lighter vehicles and is always highly successful, right? I don't think I've ever seen a tank shoot at a lighter vehicle, over-penetrate, and end up not killing it.

 

Courtesy of my shelf of "I was once cool" (beer is provided for scale)

 

2a9e5qu.jpg

 

That's what's left of a training sabot after being shot through something in the front center.  It's not huge, but it's going to leave a mark on pretty much anything it touches (or picture something that sized going something like a few thousand meters a second touching anything mechanical).  

Now get an overhead drawing of anything that's not a tank, and start drawing straight lines through it from point of penetration to point of exit.  Feel free to include non-military targets such as Yugos, large bears, SUVs or other things you might really not be a fan of.

 

So in following those lines, try to find routes that:

 

a. Do not do major and irreparable damage to the vehicle given something sabot sized passing through

 

b. Lack anything that might might get excited by a sabot type round passing through it.

 

It's pretty hard.  On most IFVs you wind up intersecting the turret somehow which will always react poorly to a sabot sized chunk of metal going through it.  On many IFVs, any hit on the frontal slope is going to pass through the engine (if not the engine itself, then required engine support equipment.  A rear-flank shot might just kill most of the carried crew, but many IFVs store ammunition or have fuel cells in the rear of the vehicle, which will also react poorly to a sabot strike. 

 

The only vehicles that I feel legitimately might drive away from a sabot hit without being some manner of "kill" are trucks, simply because there's so much "not important' space that a round would just zip through.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if Im wrong, but at one point wasn't 1500m "battlesight" for the sabot in the Abrams? Meaning, the sight of the Abrams is set at 1500m with no laser range finder doing any work. With todays ammo traveling at almost 1 mile per second, 1500 meters is pretty much point blank range. 650m is a knife fight in a phone both.  As long as your last ranging was not 4000 meters, I would think the gunner could just lay the sight on the target, point and click...dead.

Edited by gunnersman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JK so far since cmx2 the round up the spout isnt modelled.precisely, whatever is needed is.just assumed to be.in barrel

 

 

Yep, actually that might go all the way back to CMBO. Too many years now to remember.

 

 

Mord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not pnzrldr, or a Panzer Leader but I was a Panzer Crewman.   :)   4 seconds is very doable, especially if the target is stationary.   A mover requires a fraction of a second after the lase to let the lead get induced.  And I was only ever on M1A1's, I can imagine that A2's makes this even faster.  As long as your loader is good, you could do it again 4-5 seconds later.

 

At 650 meters you would really not even need to go narrow (switch the zoom on the sight) to make that shot. I would think that at 650 meters, if the gunner and TC saw it at the same time he command would be more like "HOLY S!!!....ON THE WAY!".  LOL

 

panzersaurkrautwerfer - Very, very cool that you scored a training sabot penetrator!   I have a few aft caps I was able to....procure.   But that is much more cool. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Panzer Crewman is pretty awesome too.  In terms of the A1 vs A2, depends on your model, but the decrease in engagement times results from the fact you've basically got two sets of GPS (Gunner's Primary Sights) in action with the CITV running.  Extra bonus at least in gunnery is the driver's thermal optics mean he can spot at least the obvious frontal targets (although if your driver is a lowspeed it's not much help).

 

I snagged the penetrator because some of my Platoon Sergeants were going to go dunnage hunting on range maintenance day, and they asked if they could borrow the grill off of my HMMWV's fan to use as a sift.  I told them they could, but jokingly "to bring me back something pretty"

 

So yeah they brought back a full set of sabot petals, the penetrator, the "cup" from a canister round and about a half dozen pellets.  Good guys.  

 

Re: Battlesight 

 

Battlesight for sabot is 1200 meters.  Think HEAT is 850?  Basically it's the max range at which no range input is required for the round to strike the target.  Lead is also pretty minimal at that range.  The 600 meters or so is, as someone pointed out a knife fight in a telephone booth.  

 

Re: Fire command

 

 

 

 "HOLY S!!!....ON THE WAY!"

 

This too.  Technically you're always supposed to get an "up" from the loader, which lets you know he's clear of the gun and all safeties are off.  Conversely if it's the first round of the engagement and you're leaving cover, it's likely the loader is clear anyway.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Panzer Crewman is pretty awesome too.  In terms of the A1 vs A2, depends on your model, but the decrease in engagement times results from the fact you've basically got two sets of GPS (Gunner's Primary Sights) in action with the CITV running.  Extra bonus at least in gunnery is the driver's thermal optics mean he can spot at least the obvious frontal targets (although if your driver is a lowspeed it's not much help).

Re: driver spotting

When I was a driver, gunnery was pretty boring. The only fun I got to have was hauling ass back to the ready line after we were done. So I got way into helping spot. Especially when the TC was busting .50. I don't know how table 8 s done now, but in my day the most difficult was Bravo 3 Swing, the dreaded widowmaker. PC, rpg team and troops with a very short time hack. There was a "fire, fire heat and adjust. Caliber fifty!" Command in it. If the TC did not drill the rpg team in the frst burst, you lose that one. Was happy to help. :)

 

I snagged the penetrator because some of my Platoon Sergeants were going to go dunnage hunting on range maintenance day, and they asked if they could borrow the grill off of my HMMWV's fan to use as a sift.  I told them they could, but jokingly "to bring me back something pretty"

 

So yeah they brought back a full set of sabot petals, the penetrator, the "cup" from a canister round and about a half dozen pellets.  Good guys.  

I hate myself for never thinking to do this.

 

 

Re: Fire command

 

 

This too.  Technically you're always supposed to get an "up" from the loader, which lets you know he's clear of the gun and all safeties are off.  Conversely if it's the first round of the engagement and you're leaving cover, it's likely the loader is clear anyway.

Very good point. Crew safety is very important. If you fire the main gun when the loader is in the way, he is at least crippled for life, at best. I agree that first round fired he would be out of the way. However, just for the record, I would never fire the main gun without a loud and clear UP!

I trained my guys to holler it at the very top of their lungs. Had a younger kid once who was still coming into his voice. Fun times. Lol

Thanks for the fun chats. I could talk tanks all day. Miss it a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

When I was a driver, gunnery was pretty boring. The only fun I got to have was hauling ass back to the ready line after we were done. So I got way into helping spot. Especially when the TC was busting .50. I don't know how table 8 s done now, but in my day the most difficult was Bravo 3 Swing, the dreaded widowmaker. PC, rpg team and troops with a very short time hack. There was a "fire, fire heat and adjust. Caliber fifty!" Command in it. If the TC did not drill the rpg team in the frst burst, you lose that one. Was happy to help.  :)

 

The new driver's night sight is thermal.  It makes spotting a lot easier.

 

The tables are a bit different, the "widowmaker" now generally refers to...if I remember right a tank-PC-PC on delay engagement.  The one you're talking about is what we call the "simo" which is the TC's .50 cal on a PC, loader's truck target, and coax on troops.  It's a bit easier with the CROW, although the CROW is sort of....special.  

 

Re: Dunnage looting

 

It helps that Rod range is super-short and as a mountain as a backstop.  Getting an aftcap now though is hard as heck.  Your acceptable loss rate is something insane like 2 aftcaps for a company during crew gunnery, and 2 more if you're doing collective gunnery.

 

Usually the ones that get disappeared are set aside for parting gifts for important people, like Company commanders, 1SGs, for real retiring NCOs etc. 

 

 

 

Very good point. Crew safety is very important. If you fire the main gun when the loader is in the way, he is at least crippled for life, at best. I agree that first round fired he would be out of the way. However, just for the record, I would never fire the main gun without a loud and clear UP!

The way I was trained is that at gunnery we will do the full commands, but it was made clear the only non-optimal part of the fire command was "up" in combat.    Even to the degree of the gunner yelling "TANK" and the loader just belting out UP and then shooting if something popped up at 300 meters or something.  

 

 

 

Thanks for the fun chats. I could talk tanks all day. Miss it a lot. 

You and me both man.  The only parts of my Army career I really cared for were Armor Officer's Basic Course (as that was lots of tanking), and then my time as a tank company commander.  The rest was pretty much take it or leave it.

 

M1A1 was beautiful by the way.  A2 is a beast, but she feels sort of like something from science fiction, but the M1A1 made you feel like you were in a tank, and you felt just a little short of being superman hanging out of the TC's hatch on that.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...