objective Delta no spoiler

[Frederico]

I have played through every scenario so far and won each time - except for this one . Played it four times and closest I could get was a minor defeat. A couple of times it was looking great (I tried the river approach too) and then the Russian air hit. It is relentless! Last time I had three squads make it to exit, but lost all but one of my vehicles to air strikes. Black Moria how did you avoid the air strikes?!

[Bahger]

Yes, I am going to wait a while before signing up again for this one.  Better AD for the US side would really balance out the mission while still retaining a high level of challenge.  Are the Stinger MANPAD teams the only US AD fielded in the game?  It seems unrealistic that an American force of this size would not have a stronger air defence, especially when Russian strike aircraft, rather than just helicopters, are briefed.  This scenario puts a fresh US assault force up against a supposedly depleted Russian defence but Russian air superiority interferes with this balance and kind of makes the US a bit of an underdog.

[antaress73]

Just imagine if you didnt have the apaches . they kill 80% of the  russian vehicules everytime I play.. BMP-2M with 4 kornets it can fire in salvos to defeat APS and better optics is no slouch.You have 13 on the map plus three T-72s.. plus russian air and artillery (mortars and 152mm). Plus those Russian RObin Hoods with their tandem charge RPGs that can hit a vehicule on the first try at 200 meters LOL

[antaress73]

tactical air defenses are solely the realm of stingers .. yes.. when the US is fighting alongside the Ukrainians they can have a tunguska which helps a lot.

Edited February 14, 2015 by antaress73

[BlackMoria]

I have played through every scenario so far and won each time - except for this one . Played it four times and closest I could get was a minor defeat. A couple of times it was looking great (I tried the river approach too) and then the Russian air hit. It is relentless! Last time I had three squads make it to exit, but lost all but one of my vehicles to air strikes. Black Moria how did you avoid the air strikes?!

Luck!

My stinger team lucked in and downed the fast air on the first pass before it dropped munitions.

[antaress73]

Hiding vehicules in Woods doesnt do s*** against 2 SU-25SM, this is the modernized version with all the shiny avionics and FLIR sensors so it can fight in all weather and at night. It destroyed m'y strikers hiding in heavy Woods everytime and my stinger team can only shoot down one (sometimes) in my many attempts at this scenario

Edited February 14, 2015 by antaress73

[BlackMoria]

Wow.  I guess I have to re-assessment my no casualty victory for this scenario for an earlier thread in which people were posting their best game.  Looks like pulling off a victory for this scenario warrants bragging rights and to do it with no casualties is nothing short of downright amazing.

 

At the time I played it, I didn't think it was markedly hard to win.  Sure, it was a very challenging tactical puzzle but it didn't stand out in my mind as 'the scenario to beat' and I found other scenarios equally challenging.

 

All the factors must of played in my favor.  Now I feel like the guy not realizing he was in the crosshairs of a sniper and moves unknownly out of sight, never realizing how close he came to the fatal shot.

 

Just like I wasn't aware there was a second Frogfoot.  After my forces shot down the first one, I had the objectives and was moving for the exit point so I must of exited the map before the second one showed up.  

 

I need to replay this one and see what happens in a second playthrough.

Edited February 14, 2015 by BlackMoria

[Bahger]

Well, give yourself some credit for skill, BlackMoria and if there was an element of luck, Napoleon would have appreciated it. Frogfoots for the Russians but no Hogs for the U.S.…well let's not revisit that debate. I just hope our real-life infantry/cavalry have better defenses against fast air. And in this scenario, Russia clearly has air superiority.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Bahger

[antaress73]

Well the apaches are a major factor for the US too, without them youre screwed. Destroying 13 BMP-2M plus 3 T-72 at night + infantry supported by heavy arty and mortars in a limited short LOS environment with only some arty and a stryker platoon ? Good luck ! Russians dont have their usual air defense tools either. 2 frogfoots arent much. If they are doing an air surge calls for help are coming from all across the battlefield so its possible. NATO air is also probably attrited. Who do you think you're fighting against close to their borders ? Lol

Edited February 15, 2015 by antaress73

[antaress73]

As for the Russians not hitting NATO bases in a shooting war so close to their borders that's wishfull thinking. The Russians prefer to escalate than to lose and if it goes there, its a fight to the death. Serious miscalculation. It will get out of hand pretty quick.

Edited February 15, 2015 by antaress73

[BlackMoria]

Did another pass at this scenario last night.  I stayed with my same basic plan that I used for my first scenario.

 

Played out differently (different AI plan I think) but the results nearly the same.

 

I got 1 WIA and 1 aircraft shot down.

 

This time, my Stinger missed when the fast air showed and a munition landed mere metres from one of my vehicles but had no effect other than give a very significant pucker factor to my pixeltruppen.    I tucked my vehicles into treelines as the fast air came around.  This time, the Stinger downed the attacking air (saw the message, heard the plane go down).  Then I heard a jet pass overhead.  

 

Oh crap, a second SU.   What followed was a intense 5 minutes of the SU and my vehicles playing hide and seek.  I obviously did the hiding part.  The jet made about 4-5 passes but didn't see my vehicles because there was not a followup attack before it RTBed.

 

So, hiding does work but it is not perfect.  Vehicles can be spotted in trees and attacked but with 4-5 passes overhead, I think the probably of being spotted is on the low end, otherwise I would be attacked.

 

So for those frustrated with the scenario, keep plugging at it.  It is possible to hide vehicles in treelines successfully but as I stated, it is not a sure thing.

[Euri]

This is an excellent senario but it has an important flaw: The pricing of objectives creates perverse incentives. Essentially, if one wishes to win on the basis of objective points it pays not to do nothing but preserve forces and inflict casualties on the enemy. No need to go for the Police compound or Obj Delta. I believe these two objectives should be priced up.

Of course I played it properly and caputred these two key objectives killing almost all enemies on the map and existing a couple of vehicles. When the time lapsed there were only 12 enemies alive on the map. I Lost 14 men (KIA and wounded) and three vehicles (from the Russian CAS). What did this get me? A minor defeat! 

 

[Abdolmartin]

This is an excellent senario but it has an important flaw: The pricing of objectives creates perverse incentives. Essentially, if one wishes to win on the basis of objective points it pays not to do nothing but preserve forces and inflict casualties on the enemy. No need to go for the Police compound or Obj Delta. I believe these two objectives should be priced up.

Of course I played it properly and caputred these two key objectives killing almost all enemies on the map and existing a couple of vehicles. When the time lapsed there were only 12 enemies alive on the map. I Lost 14 men (KIA and wounded) and three vehicles (from the Russian CAS). What did this get me? A minor defeat! 

Exactly. On my second run, I took all enemy positions and then exited, taking 25 casualties (12 KIA) and 3 vehicles dead (plus a goddamn Igla took out one of my Apaches!), while the enemy only had 10 men left at the end, and all I got was a draw, with me having 400 points and the enemy... 500! An outmatched and outnumbered force like the American force in this scenario should actually get more credit for killing the enemy, and much more credit for taking ground objectives.

 

Still, the masochist inside of me really likes this mission; especially with that Russian arty and air attack that comes in and obliterates you.

[gnarly]

Gravedigging this thread, but I'd rather post in an on-topic one, then start a new one.

 

 

--- SPOILERS ----

Played this for the first time a few days ago, my first real exposure to enemy CAS (want to 'learn' it before incorporating it into PBEMs. Currently I house-rule it out, as it seems far too luck orientated). Had the ground war totally in hand (javs/arty precision strikes and Apache strikes on enemy armour), but lost all but two vehicles to CAS, as they were blithely parked out in the open. Stinger team missed with both shots.

Touched all objectives (barring the exit) and got a minor defeat. Fair enough.

 

Reloaded the save before enemy CAS started, and parked everything deep in the treelines. This time Stinger team took down enemy chopper (Hind? I think the Russkies only get one, as I had no more enemy heli attacked, only fast air?) from exactly the same spot (hence my continuing view that the airwar in CM is more luck than anything else, which can lead to very frustrating PBEM games).

As before, touched all objs except exit, this time lost only (?) 3 Strykers to CAS jets (they were all buried in the woods, so clearly such camo is only partially effective. Interestingly it included both MGS's, bigger profiles?).  This time a draw (400 points each).

FYI, I primarily took the left hand valley/route, then orientated from the mosque down towards the police compound/barracks.

 

My comments/questions:

 

1/. What is the point of the exit objective in this mission? I don't think it is worth any points?  (i reloaded my last save again, and exited a few vehicles of map, with no change in points, and the briefing lists no points for this). 

2/. The 400 point US obj of minimizing casualties is rather harsh IMO given the incredible vagaries/luck component of enemy CAS (as illustrated above). As discussed previously, more weighting of the Police Compound and other objectives points, and or reduction of the US casualty objective (say 200) would feel more balanced.

 

[Euri]

The victory points in this scenario are cleary "mispriced" - Just enjoy it. 

[antaress73]

On 13/12/2016 at 9:47 PM, gnarly said:

Gravedigging this thread, but I'd rather post in an on-topic one, then start a new one.

 

 

--- SPOILERS ----

Played this for the first time a few days ago, my first real exposure to enemy CAS (want to 'learn' it before incorporating it into PBEMs. Currently I house-rule it out, as it seems far too luck orientated). Had the ground war totally in hand (javs/arty precision strikes and Apache strikes on enemy armour), but lost all but two vehicles to CAS, as they were blithely parked out in the open. Stinger team missed with both shots.

Touched all objectives (barring the exit) and got a minor defeat. Fair enough.

 

Reloaded the save before enemy CAS started, and parked everything deep in the treelines. This time Stinger team took down enemy chopper (Hind? I think the Russkies only get one, as I had no more enemy heli attacked, only fast air?) from exactly the same spot (hence my continuing view that the airwar in CM is more luck than anything else, which can lead to very frustrating PBEM games).

As before, touched all objs except exit, this time lost only (?) 3 Strykers to CAS jets (they were all buried in the woods, so clearly such camo is only partially effective. Interestingly it included both MGS's, bigger profiles?).  This time a draw (400 points each).

FYI, I primarily took the left hand valley/route, then orientated from the mosque down towards the police compound/barracks.

 

My comments/questions:

 

1/. What is the point of the exit objective in this mission? I don't think it is worth any points?  (i reloaded my last save again, and exited a few vehicles of map, with no change in points, and the briefing lists no points for this). 

2/. The 400 point US obj of minimizing casualties is rather harsh IMO given the incredible vagaries/luck component of enemy CAS (as illustrated above). As discussed previously, more weighting of the Police Compound and other objectives points, and or reduction of the US casualty objective (say 200) would feel more balanced.

 

You can open up the scenario in the editor and change them. 

 

[ctcharger]

I did not realize they have air support, usually because I never get that far and have to quit due to heavy losses.  I did get close and then boom!  I really struggle with this scenario much like I did with Ambush before I finally achieved a tactical victory.  I may try the edge crawling next time and see if that works, so far nothing has worked.  

[Vet 0369]

On December 14, 2018 at 10:17 PM, ctcharger said:

I did not realize they have air support, usually because I never get that far and have to quit due to heavy losses.  I did get close and then boom!  I really struggle with this scenario much like I did with Ambush before I finally achieved a tactical victory.  I may try the edge crawling next time and see if that works, so far nothing has worked.  

Personally, I don't consider "edge crawling" to be "gaming" the system. As I understand it, "edge crawl" is moving along the extreme edge of map to remain concealed or to avoid impassible tiles. If the scenario designer wants to prevent it, can't the designer simply replace any  "passable" tiles on the edge of the map with "impassable" tiles? In real life, I can assure you that if my recon tells me that they've found a way to move while remaining out of LOS, I owe it to my men to use it and save them from hurt. If I'm concerned that my opponent is going to out flank me that way, I'll simply deploy assets to monitor and avoid being flanked. All it really takes is a scout team to monitor the edge, and any commander worth his(or her) salt will make sure the flanks are secure during a movement! Perhaps it's just because I've never understood the concept of edge crawling. Maybe someone can enlighten me by explaining what edge crawling actually is, and why it's considered an exploit.

[A Canadian Cat]

44 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

If I'm concerned that my opponent is going to out flank me that way, I'll simply deploy assets to monitor and avoid being flanked. All it really takes is a scout team to monitor the edge, and any commander worth his(or her) salt will make sure the flanks are secure during a movement!

Exactly.

44 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

 Perhaps it's just because I've never understood the concept of edge crawling. Maybe someone can enlighten me by explaining what edge crawling actually is, and why it's considered an exploit.

It's not an exploit. Some people are not being prudent as you suggest above and then whining about it later

[Vet 0369]

4 hours ago, IanL said:

Exactly.

It's not an exploit. Some people are not being prudent as you suggest above and then whining about it later

Thank you Sir! Now I don't have to feel that I'm somehow cheating and that my integrity is shattered

[THH149]

I had a quick muck about play of this and came out with a US Major Defeat  against the AI, so at first glance I'd call it a fair fight. Just takes a bit of practice to get it sorted.

Stingers (only 2?) did nothing,

Also, had a whole squad in building get destroyed by a russian firing a thermo RPG7 round - very nasty - the building collapsed and the squad took several casualties and become rattled.

Interesting to see/be exposed to the CAS of the Russians, as that's a new trick for me.

Has anyone tried this against a human player? I'd think pro-Russian in that case (as they could hide/better use their armour).