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How to use the Khrizantema?


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Just had a thought. CM already has saving throws it uses for infantry to represent micro relief and other factors not explicitly modeled in the game, right?  What if BFC gave mast mounted weapons and sensor platforms substantial-high (fuzzy logic) saving throws when attacked, representing the cover they should have in the first place? I'd think this would greatly improve the combat effectiveness of Kriz, LRAS and other goodies which are, from what I can see, altogether too easy to spot and kill. Were this doable (may or may not be) I'd expect that LRAS would actually be able, with its powerful optics, to make a real contribution to seeing the battlefield, as opposed to being an excellent target. We've already been over the Kriz. And isn't there a TOW Hammerhead version of the Stryker? Doesn't it suffer from the same limitation as the Kriz? How does the game treat the TOW launchers on the Bradley? Is the Bradley also affected by the elevated weapon problem?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

Edited by John Kettler
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2km everything regular etc atgms in light forest with 1 tree per tile

ATGMs kill M1: 3

Gap between respotting and getting shots off too big -> APS and M1 killed ATGMs in return: 17

better ratio than with the Kh-S (who in the same situation killed 1 and died 19 times often without even spotting)

only works if you can find a spot where the enemy Tac AI will likely not just drive straight backwards

 

obviously I never said this is supposed to be the end-all APS M1s solution, it's very situational but if there's a spot on a map where it might work it is better to put 2 ATGMs on it than a Kh-S, that was all I was trying to find out.

 

I've so far tried to cope with M1s by using cheap atgms to spook some and then drive an overwhelming force of T-90s against the rest of them also more at mines here and there

Nice tests :)

Had close to your results when was trying to test Khriz effectiveness.

 

Just had a thought. CM already has saving throws it uses for infantry to represent micro relief and other factors not explicitly modeled in the game, right?  What if BFC gave mast mounted weapons and sensor platforms substantial-high (fuzzy logic) saving throws when attacked, representing the cover they should have in the first place? I'd think this would greatly improve the combat effectiveness of Kriz, LRAS and other goodies which are, from what I can see, altogether too easy to spot and kill. Were this doable (may or may not be) I'd expect that LRAS would actually be able, with its powerful optics, to make a real contribution to seeing the battlefield, as opposed to being an excellent target. We've already been over the Kriz. And isn't there a TOW Hammerhead version of the Stryker? Doesn't it suffer from the same limitation as the Kriz? How does the game treat the TOW launchers on the Bradley? Is the Bradley also affected by the elevated weapon problem?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

Didn't try, but it's a little bit another story, cause the main thing is that on Khriz there's also a radar which is above gunner sight and while radar and ATGM are above ground Khriz should be ok with spotting and shooting.

For example Sturm-S doesn't have radar, but it's ATGM in the same hull-down position will be above ground, but it can't shoot cause there's no sight and/or camera on the same level and that's ok.

So Bradley while have gunner sight above ground should be able to spot/shoot.

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Yeah the not working hull down radar firing mode set up is a bit of a dissapointment. I know that this is an engine issue but it probably could be mitigated better somehow with crew placement outside of vehicle or whatever - could advise if i knew how it was done.

 

AT-14 teams - you can get alot for a fairly little price. In doubles they can defeat APS vehicles with ripple firing effect. You just have to hope they fire close enough together or actually hit what they are firing it. Buy at Veteran+ skill.

 

9P157, if its like 2-5km away then you have a distinct advantage. As i said though in CMBS the ranges arent that forgiving, 500m-1km at best, bring pairs of dismounted teams to the fight. A dismounted ATGM platoon is worth its weight in gold in a BTR/MTLB Coy.

Edited by Stagler
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 it can't spot/shoot from hull-down position as intended. 
 

 

 

I just did a test using a kriza from a full hull down positon.

 

Take the editor, make a 2 points different berm, place the kriza slightly over the first slope and you got yourself a hull down. My kriza managed to spot and target an M1 hiding behind his smoke cover.

 

Here, take a look:

2vhvgnr.jpg

 

You will need 250m to get a line of sight, or, if you need a shorter one, make the tank climb the ramp a bit.

2ihrtz5.jpg

Edited by Kieme(ITA)
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Another thing . I have 3 khriz in hull down positions on a hill overlooking 4 km of flat terrain. There's a company of 14 m1a2s 4 km away. The khriz detects them and start firing. They fired 45 missiles in 10 mins. They were not detected but NONE of the missiles hit. Not duds, they simply fly away widly. I ran this test scenario many times. I think this is a bug

 

 

I think I just reproduced this, but if you can provide a save it would be helpful.

 

But besides this probable bug that seems to be arising in specific hull down positions, the Khrizantema can spot and shoot hull down and can shoot through IR-opaque smoke.  It can even salvo fire through IR-opaque smoke, which if I understand the system correctly it should not be able to do.

 

The fact that a bit of hull is still showing when hull down does not mean the Khrizantema is broken.  Every vehicle in the game is affected to some degree by this limitation in the spotting system.

Edited by akd
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I just did a test using a kriza from a full hull down positon.

 

Take the editor, make a 2 points different berm, place the kriza slightly over the first slope and you got yourself a hull down. My kriza managed to spot and target an M1 hiding behind his smoke cover.

 

Here, take a look:

 

 

You will need 250m to get a line of sight, or, if you need a shorter one, make the tank climb the ramp a bit.

 

 

Berm...Have you seen such hills? :)

Most of the time you have -1 offset, but lot of times you can achieve -2 offset.

 

Check this(-2 offset):

2LioKtp.png

 

Test scenario: http://www.filedropper.com/krizpos

 

2nd Tank Destroyer on -2 offset terrain in "Slightly up" position, can be shot by anything.

1st Tank Destroyer on -1 offset terrain in "Hull-down" position, can be shot by anything.

1st Platoon HQ on -2 offset terrain in normal, as intended, Hull-down position.

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The fact that a bit of hull is still showing when hull down does not mean the Khrizantema is broken.  Every vehicle in the game is affected to some degree by this limitation in the spotting system.

 

Yeah, but the Russians are the ones hurting, since what should be a specialized counter to the APS-equipped Abrams is somewhat neutered by the issue.

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Berm...Have you seen such hills? :)

Most of the time you have -1 offset, but lot of times you can achieve -2 offset.

 

Check this(-2 offset):

2LioKtp.png

 

Test scenario: http://www.filedropper.com/krizpos

 

2nd Tank Destroyer on -2 offset terrain in "Slightly up" position, can be shot by anything.

1st Tank Destroyer on -1 offset terrain in "Hull-down" position, can be shot by anything.

1st Platoon HQ on -2 offset terrain in normal, as intended, Hull-down position.

 

As you can see, your "normal" hull down position has the thermal sight covered, which would cause all sorts of issues with operation of vehicle.

 

Again, if any vehicle in the game can achieve a perfect hull down position (such that the sensors and weapon system are only just barely exposed) then it is simply a happy coincidence between the more abstract spotting system and the particular geometry of that vehicle.

Edited by akd
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As you can see, your "normal" hull down position has the thermal sight covered, which would cause all sorts of issues with operation of vehicle.

 

Again, if any vehicle in the game can achieve a perfect hull down position (such that the sensors and weapon system are only just barely exposed) then it is simply coincidence.

Would cause if Kriz didn't have radar.

Target can be light up by radar and target can be shot using only radar and 9M123-2 is a radar guided ATGM missile.

 

It's like saying that F-15 can't use AIM-120C in BVR engagement cause pilot can't see target by his own eyes.

 

By the way...if we're talking about ATGM missiles - why supersonic missiles( 9M123 for example) can be intercepted by APS?

Edited by animalshadow
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Ground radar is not some all seeing eye.  There are good reasons its not used more in ground combat.  Its delicate, easily spoofed, and has a hard time with basic ground objects.  There needs to be quite a bit of clearance between the target and any ground objects.  IOW, conditions need to be just right to operate.  It would be almost impossible to fire a radar guided missile into a stand of tress, or maybe even something near them.  So while it is a good counter in certain aspects, lets not get completely out of hand with its capabilities.

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It's an abstraction, the hull down system is not tailored for each and every vehicle in game, it's more generic.

 

Facts:

-The krizantema CAN GO hulldown (proven)

-The krizantema CAN SHOOT from hulldown (proven)

-the krizantema CAN USE RADAR (proven - M1 in my tests were behind their smoke cover, enough to block Thermal, not radar)

 

I called that emplacement a "berm", but it's just the proof the kriza can go hull down in game. It was the game to tell me it was hull down, if it wasn't it would be called "partial hull down" instead.  Your idea of perfect hull down kriza is just not the same as the game (or developers) visually, but in terms of effectiveness it's the same,

If you desire try to make more kind of Hills...

 

But calling bugs or vehicle broken seems inappropriate in this case.

Edited by Kieme(ITA)
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I've been reading of the tactic in which BMPs are placed in front of the Kriz and pop broadband smoke, whereupon the Kriz lets fly in radar mode. This sounds great in theory, but my understanding is that these screens have lives of as little as 30 seconds--under good conditions. This would seem to make for some real excitement on the Russian end. Am I missing something here?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

 

This is how I am using them in the game and it makes them the best weapon to kill M!'s (with aps)

 

Actually it is not hard at all and easy to keep your units safe.

 

first have both units out of line of sight, but have the smoke placing unit positioned to lay smoke in open area that you want the Kriz to move behind.

 

yes the smoke only last about two minutes. but your smoke placing unit can fire additional smoke. So you order it to fire smoke before the other drifts off.

 

I actually like a couple of BMP's or such for each unit so that I know for sure I have smoke to give them a chance to sit in the open for awhile.

 

Of course this might not work well if conditions don't allow for smoke to last that long,

 

Once a Kriz has taken any fire or has a morale issue, they are about worthless. I find they will not sit and lock on the enemy, the AI will override on them and they seek cover. They will not sit behind the smoke screen. It is like they do not understand the enemy cannot see them.

 

So, no they are not able to do what they might be able to do in real life. But provide them smoke and place them in a commanding point of view location. and they can put a hurt on any unit in the game.

 

What more do you need.  If they did fix the code for a full hull down position, the M1's likely would have the ability to blow away the exposed equipment anyway.

 

Just give them smoke and they are awesome

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By the way...if we're talking about ATGM missiles - why supersonic missiles( 9M123 for example) can be intercepted by APS?

Why wouldn't it exactly?

 

For the time being, it seems that maybe mission makers just need to keep in mind the handicap and add less APS-equipped Abrams to most missions IMO.

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It's an abstraction, the hull down system is not tailored for each and every vehicle in game, it's more generic.

 

Facts:

-The krizantema CAN GO hulldown (proven)

-The krizantema CAN SHOOT from hulldown (proven)

-the krizantema CAN USE RADAR (proven - M1 in my tests were behind their smoke cover, enough to block Thermal, not radar)

 

I called that emplacement a "berm", but it's just the proof the kriza can go hull down in game. It was the game to tell me it was hull down, if it wasn't it would be called "partial hull down" instead.  Your idea of perfect hull down kriza is just not the same as the game (or developers) visually, but in terms of effectiveness it's the same,

If you desire try to make more kind of Hills...

 

But calling bugs or vehicle broken seems inappropriate in this case.

 

 

This to the max.

 

 

 

I do really think there is too much APS in the game for NATO.  Its something that might be as easy to deploy as some think and US procurement is known for its speed to field.

I don't think there's too much in scenarios.  To a large degree if we're going for more grounded vs more futuristic, there should be much less APS all around, no T-90AMs, BMP-2Ms, etc, etc.  Of the included future stuff, some manner of yankee imperialist purchased APS is pretty modest.  Looking at the Trophy installation, it's something that could fit pretty easily onto the Abrams turret, and folks forget how fast stuff that was "needed" got bought for 1991 and 2003 in terms of conventional equipment.  

 

Having a higher rarity cost for it, and for some of the "maybe in 2017" gear would be best imo.  

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Why wouldn't it exactly?

 

For the time being, it seems that maybe mission makers just need to keep in mind the handicap and add less APS-equipped Abrams to most missions IMO.

Probably I'm wrong about intercepting supersonic ATGM. Can't find anything about max projectile speed.

It's not only about scenarios, I personally prefer QBs for example.

If M1A2(APS) were limited by rarity as Tiger tanks are in CMBN it would be ok, personally and perfect hull-down position issue with Kriz wouldn't be so noticeable.

Edited by animalshadow
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nerdwing,

 

According to KBP's own information, the velocity limit for the latest Arena-E is 700 m/s. If something comes screaming in any faster, the system simply won't be able to engage it. This is because of the threats it was designed to defeat: RPG, RR, LOS ATGM of the TOW, AT-4, 5, 14, etc. types, not HVAPFSDS at, say, 1600 m/s.  What I so far don't have is equivalent info for Trophy and that Raytheon device, whose name escapes me. I strongly doubt they can handle anything faster themselves. Even the Krizantema's weapon is only clocking 400 m/sec.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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I think I just reproduced this, but if you can provide a save it would be helpful.

 

But besides this probable bug that seems to be arising in specific hull down positions, the Khrizantema can spot and shoot hull down and can shoot through IR-opaque smoke.  It can even salvo fire through IR-opaque smoke, which if I understand the system correctly it should not be able to do.

 

The fact that a bit of hull is still showing when hull down does not mean the Khrizantema is broken.  Every vehicle in the game is affected to some degree by this limitation in the spotting system.

 

 

 I will send you the test scenario as a personal message.

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Damn :(  Wish this was work-around-able some way.  

 

In one of the early EARLY CM titles, werent lines of sight actually drawn from the BASE of the unit?  Or rather, hitboxes or some such were?

 

It led to absolutely insane AT-gun emplacements that you simply couldnt hit.  Was a huge issue at the time. 

Edited by Nerdwing
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