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Poland - List of probable things (wall of text edition)

Mr0Buggy

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Mr0Buggy Junior Member

Mr0Buggy

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Hello there, I'm a new user here. Before I get on with the topic, here's a short introduction:
I'm a long time gamer, and I started the Combat Mission series with the first initial games, mainly the Beyond Overlord, which I loved. After all these years, I came to learn that there are far more Combat Mission games, and that they have also gone for more modern settings (Cold War Afghanistan and Modern Syria) for few of their latest games.
I have tried the demo of the two games, and I have fallen in love again. Then I heard of the latest upcoming iteration - the Black Sea - and here I am. I wished to get it done before the release, but school got in the way.
 
Given the setting, as well as some rumors flying wildly about a possible future Module, I have decided to make the list you can see below. Please, by no means take it as me begging/pleading/ordering the Battlefront crew to include Poland in the game/future module. It's merely meant as a very general guide/refence, and to perhaps bring some interest of fellow tacticians to this country's armed forces, which usually are rather unheard of on the global scene. 
 
The list may not be accurate, it's a rough prediction of what might be around for Poland in 2017. It's based on plans (which have been outlined up to 2020), as well as news from the military industry around the globe, as the situation is dynamically changing day to day. Any mistakes are not an ill will, merely a mistake or a document being interpreted the wrong way. Please keep that in mind. Also it's not really meant as a proper reference, and please don't use it as such. Hence, I won't link any of my sources (majority which are in Polish anyway) as this list was made rather hastily. Should you require proper references  (*wink wink, nudge nudge*), I will happily oblige as soon as I can (I have finals atm). Also, I cannot buy the Black Sea for the time being, but I hope to do so in the coming months.
 
Now onto the goodies:
 
Weapons and vehicles that are not (yet or otherwise) in service of Polish Armed forces, have names written in cursive.
 
Infantry Weapons:
 
Assault Rifles:
Kbs wz. 1996 Beryl - 5,56 mm NATO
 
Kbk wz. 1996 Mini-Beryl - 5,56 mm NATO (beside frontline service, also used by vehicle crews)
 
Kbk AKM - 7.62x39 mm WP
 
Kbk AKMS - 7.62x39 mm WP
 
MSBS - 5,56 mm NATO and 7,62 mm NATO variants, should start entering service 2015/2016
 
LMG:
 
RPK - in use in Airborne Force (limited)
 
PK - various variants
 
UKM-2000 - various variants, UKM-2000M to enter service in 2015, used by infantry as well as vehicle mounts
 
Rheinmetall MG 3 - used on former Bundeswehr vehicles (Leopard 2A4/2A5 and respective ARV's)
 
LMG variant of MSBS - 7,62 mm NATO, possibly to enter service in 2015 (image not available)
 
HMG:
WKM-B - Polish variant of the NSV MG, adapted to use .50 BMG NATO
 
NSW - Polish variant of the NSV MG, still using the original 12,7 mm WP ammunition. In the process of being replaced by WKM-B
Both used on variety of vehicles or standalone
 
Sniper/Marksman rifles:
 
SWD/SWD-M - Polish designation for SVD Dragunow. SWD-M is a Polish upgrade. 7.62x54 mmR WP
 
Sako TRG (TRG-21 and TRG-22) - 7,62mm NATO Sniper Rifle
 
Bor - Polish made, 7,62 mm NATO Sniper Rifle
 
Tor - Polish made .50 BMG Sniper Rifle
 
Granade Launchers:
 
Underslung:
 
wz. 74 Pallad/GPBO-40 - 40mm Granade launcher for Kbs wz. 1996 Beryl
 
Standalone:
 
Mk. 19 - on vehicles and tripod
 
wz. 83 Pallad-D/GSBO-40 - single shot 40mm launchers
 
RGP-40 - six shot revolver mag launcher. On order, should enter service in 2015
 
GA-40 - may enter service before 2017
 
AT Weapons
Unguided:
 
Carl Gustav M3 - (Airborne and Spec Ops forces only)
 
AT4 - (Airborne and Spec Ops forces only)
 
RPG-7 - in service, unknown which warheads are in service in the Polish Armed forces
 
RPG-76 Komar (in storage, requested and used by forces in Afghanistan for smaller targets upon which RPG-7 (or other weapons) would be a waste)
 
Guided:
 
Spike-LR - Stationary launchers as well as launchers based upon HMMWV and ROSOMAK vehicles. 4km range, Fire & Forget, Fire Observe & Update, Lock-On After Launch - what more do you need ?
 
9K115 Metys - limited use by airborne forces
 
MANPAD:
 
GROM - reportedly a "copy" and vast improvement upon the Soviet designed 9K38 Igla. Several new versions made since then. Also used on variety of vehicles
 
PIORUN - improved version of the GROM, should start entering service in 2015/2016 (launcher is reportedly the same, it's the missile that will be vastly improved)
 
VEHICLES:
 
MBT:
 
T-72M1 - no major/significant changes since the Warsaw Pact times, it's an export variant of the T-72A produced in Poland under license (chances are if you are seeing one of those anywhere near a frontline, then you are within a stone's throw from the Warsaw), reportedly Polish made T-72M1 were of higher quality and make than average among the Warsaw Pact countries (mentioned in passing in a book or two).
 
PT-91 Twardy variants:
 
PT-91 - Polish Modernization of the T-72M1

125mm 2A46M main gun, II Generation ERAWA 1 & 2 ERA
PKT 7,62 mm WP coax MG, WKM-B or NSW 12,7 mm hatch mounted HMG
Wola S-12U engine (850 hp): Road speed max: 60 km/h, offroad max: 35-45 km/h
1T DRAWA-T FCS With Thermals
SSP-1 OBRA - Laser warning receiver - connected to Smoke Granade launchers mounted on the side of the turret, allows for automatic deployment of smoke cover in the case of detection of the Laser illumination, as well as pinpoint the direction of the source in the 360 degree's angle and direct the tank's main gun in it's general direction

 
PT-91M

2A46M switched to 2A46MS, III Generation ERAWA 1 & 2 ERA (different method of mounting)
PKT 7,62 mm WP coax MG, WKM-B or NSW 12,7 mm hatch mounted HMG
Wola S-1000R engine (1000 hp): Road speed max: 65 km/h, offroad max: 40-50 km/h
1T DRAWA-T FCS With Thermals
SSP-1 OBRA 3 - the same, just better
PT-91M (on contrary to base PT-91 and T-72, can turn around on the spot due to changes to the powerpack)

 
PT-91MA1 - Same as above, majority of modifications is internal, such as better Radios and better electronics.
 
 
Leopard 2A4 - nothing much to say, not much different since the days of them watching over the Fulda Gap. They however have access to better ammo since those days.
 
Leopard 2A5 - Unchanged since they rolled off the assembly line. They do have access to more modern ammunition though.
 
Leopard 2PL - Poland has expressed interest to modernize our Leopard 2 fleet to 2A7+ like standard. First would go the 2A4's, then 2A5's. There are several proposals, but it's a bit of a mess right now (to say the least), hence it's doubtful it will be  ready or deployed in a significant capacity within Polish Armed Forces before 2017.
 
APC/IFV:
 
BWP-1 - BMP-1D variant
"Good" old BMP-1D. Not much to be said. (We used to have BMP-2 and BMP-2D but our idiot paper pushers sold them). A program to develop new tracked vehicle to replace BWP-1 has been initiated, but extremely unlikely to produce anything of substance before 2017.
 
KTO ROSOMAK variants:
ROSOMAK is a family of variants developed upon AMV PATRIA family.
 
Rosomak - first initial variant, features Oto Melara Hitfist-30P turret, armed with 30mm autocannon ATK Mk 44 along with a coax 7,62mm UKM-2000C MG. Also equipped with Obra laser warning receiver connected to smoke granade launchers and an amphibious vehicle capable of swim.

STANAG 4569 protection levels:
60 degree front arc of turret and hull - STANAG IV
everything else - STANAG III
Mines and IED: STANAG IIIa
Max Speed: 100 km/h
Max water speed: 10 km/h

 
Rosomak-M1 – Modification for the needs of Chad and Afghanistan deployments.
Changes include: additionf of Pilar "Fire direction detection" system, new and improved comm. systems, additional radio, two additional cameras on hull sides, connected to screen in infantry compartment.
Water propellers have been removed, and the Vehicle was up-armored with Israeli Rafael Armor Package, bringing the vehicle to all around STANAG IV protection levels.
 
Rosomak-M1M – further development of the version for Afghanistan Deployment. Changes from previous variant includes addition of American Qinetiq RPGNet, cabling and sockets to mount Duke IED countermeasure system and of Blue Force Tracking system (those systems are not integral part of this variant and were on loan from the US military). Infantry compartment went from 8 to 6 soldiers. This version has been up-armored by default by the original manufacturer, giving it the same STANAG IV protection levels as M1.
 
Rosomak-M3 – version armored anologically to Rosomak M1. It's turret is armored up to STANAG III standard. The turret can carry WKM-B 12,7mm HMG or 7,62mm UKM-2000C MG or Mk. 19 40mm grenade launcher.
Those vehicles usually carry either two of the above, one on the turret, second within the hull near the turret, allowing them to be swapped "on the go".
 
Rosomak-S - unoficially called "Spajkowóz" (Spikewagon) – infantry carrier variant of the base version (ergo still capable of swim), equipped to carry 2 Spike LR launchers, a load of spare missiles, along their respective weapon teams. Otherwise unarmed.
 
KTO Rosomak - Hitfist-30P turret with Spike LR variant and KTO Rosomak - Unmanned ZSSW-30 turret with Spike LR variant
The former is no different than the Base Rosomak (aside from integration of the Spike ATGM with the turret) and has already been developed, built and tested, however the latter has been designated as next step in the Rosomak development hence the former most likely won't enter service. However (at the time of the writing) there only exists a first iteration of the ZSSW-30 turret, which is being tested, but is not integrated with the Spike ATGM yet, afaik only a mockup of the double launcher can be seen on the right side of the turret.  As both vehicles, for all intents and purpouses, will serve the same role and function within the game, either could be added.
 
KWWO Wilk - Kołowy Wóz Wsparcia Ogniowego (Wheeled fire support vehicle) (105/120mm) Prototypes exist but appears extremely unlikely at this point to enter service.
 
Recon:
BWR-1D and BWR-1S  (BRM-1K and BPzV "Svatava" respectively)
Basically a BMP-1 without ATGM, having somewhat better NVG's and optionally carrying a recon squad.
 
BRDM-2M-97 "Żbik-B"
Polish modification/modernization of the BRDM-2 vehicle. New turret, Obra laser warning receiver and smoke grenade launcher, new NVG's. Armed with WKM-B and a UKM-2000 as coax.
 
Rosomak-R1 and Rosomak-R2 – Recon variants based upon the base Rosomak (hence still amphibious capable). Armed analogically to normal Rosomak, with 30mm AC and 7,62mm coax. No infantry carrying capacity. Crew compartment instead has been remodeled to house operators of additional equipment. Upon extendable 4 meter mast a FLIR System video camera, Thermal camera and laser rangefinder/target designation system were mounted, allowing for recon at the distance of up to 20 km.
R1 variant has been additionally equipped with Turkish Aselsan ACAR Ground Surveillance Radar. Reportedly allowing detection of an infantry man from 12 km away, and vehicle group from 40 km away. Radar has been mounted on a mast behind the turret. 
Both has been equipped with additional camera with directional microphone.
 
Tank Destroyers:
 
BRDM-2 KONKURS
 
Tumak-5 (M1045A2 HMMWV) with Spike-LR ATGM
 
ROSOMAK with unmanned Spike Launcher Turret - there exists an existing presentation model with combined GROM launcher on top. The military has stated desire for such/similiar variant to replace aging BRDM-2 based Tank destroyers, however there haven't been much word on it since.
 
Car transports:
Tumak-2 (M1043A2 HMMWV)
Tumak-3 (M1025A2 HMMWV)
both come with Shielded/unshielded manned turret with UKM-2000, WKM-B or NSW, or mk. 19/GA-40
 
Tumak-4 (M1097A2 HMMWV), transports up to 11 people depending on the exact setup, unarmed
 
Skorpion-3 - light multi purpouse vehicle, 7,62 MG on the roof turret. 1+4 crew
 
Star 266M - Working horse of the Polish army. Unarmed truck. Up-armored driver cabin variant may also enter service "soon" (see Hibernyt-3 below)
 
AA Assets:
 
ZSU-23-4W1 Szyłka (ZSU-23-4V1) - no known changes since the Warsaw Pact times (possibly just some minor changes to make it compatible with modern AA Command and Control systems of the Polish Army). In the process of being upgraded to ZSU-23-4MP Biała standard.

Modern day photo not available. Camo similiar to Biała below.

 
ZSU-23-4MP Biała - Polish upgrade, removal of the radar with mounting of completely passive opto-electronic detection and fire control systems, new ammo with slightly longer range (approx 3,5 km), and 4 GROM missiles for additional firepower (GROMs might be changed for PIORUN's in the future as they become available), all weather capability as well as Thermals and new AP rounds.
 
Żubr-P - carrier of the POPRAD System using the GROM missiles (may use PIORUN as those become available). POPRAD is basically a passive detection suite, four GROM launchers and some spare missiles.
 
9K35M Strzała-10M - About unchanged since the Warsaw Pact days (as far as I can tell)

Modern day camo not available.

 
Osa-AKM-P1 "Żądło" - Polish upgraded OSA-AKM, not sure if it fits CM scale however.
 
Hibernyt-3 - uparmored Star 266M truck carrying ZUR-23-2KG system. ZUR-23-2KG upgrades since the good old ZU-23-2 includes: CP-1 night-and-day sight with laser rangefinder, electromechanic gun turn system and twin launcher for "Grom" missiles. The truck carries additional ammo and spare missiles.
 
Off Map Support:
 
AHS Krab - (aka THE MOST embarrassing project of the modern Polish Military industry) a division (at least) planned before 2017
 
AHS Kryl (possible to enter limited service before 2017)
Both are 155mm NATO compatible Self Propelled Howitzers
 
Armatohaubica wz. 1977 DANA-T - 152mm Self Propelled Howitzer
 
2S1T Goździk - Polish upgrade of venerable 2S1 Gvozdika
 
SMK-120 RAK - 120 mm self propelled mortar system based upon ROSOMAK chassis - on order 80 vehicles to enter service in 2015
 
2B11 mortar - 120mm Mortar
 
M-98 Rodon mortar - 98mm mortar
 
LM-60 mortar - 60mm mortar
 
Air Support
Helo:
 
Mi-24W (Polish designation for the Mi-24V)- Reportedly the Kokon ATGM are long past expiration date and they have only unguided ordinance now at it's disposal (!! REPORTEDLY !!). So either they won't have any or we assume we borrowed some Kokons from the Ukrainian stocks.
 
 
Planes:
 
F-16 Block 52+
I have made this informative info-graphic about what kind of stuff it can carry. Not sure which of those fit scale of CM:BS, but that's everything we have for them or have planned for them at the time of writing.

pLYUthl.png
Polish F-16 also have AIDEWS system integrated into them.

 
Su-22M4 - as much as it would be even a bigger of a suicide than flying A-10 into a modern ADN, a number of Polish Su-22M4 can carry a pair of Kh-29T's - TV guided Anti Tank missiles. Beside that, it can carry to up to 8 dumb bombs - FAB-500 max or ZK-300 Polish made cluster bomb (anti personnel).
 
MiG-29 (9.12A) - it can drop some dumb bombs, either FABs or ZK-300's
 
UAV:
 
Boeing ScanEagle
Aeronautics Defense Orbiter
WB Electronics FlyEye
 
I imagine that would be all. If there are any questions or anything else that might fit the CM scale, please feel free to ask questions and I shall do answer them best to my abilities/knowledge.
 
Apologies if I posted this in a wrong place.
 
Thank you for reading !
 
EDIT: Formatting was gone for some reason. Should be all good now.
Edited by Mr0Buggy
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Mr0Buggy Junior Member

Mr0Buggy

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Bumping because its interesting/topic deserves a more detailed look.

What's so bad about the Krab? I haven't paid much attention to it.

 

Krab as a whole, is a potentially good and viable 155mm NATO SPG. The problem is, that for years, our industry could not provide a viable chassis for it (the turret is licensed copy of the AS-90 [or just imported wholesale, not sure]), There were cracks developing in those, and a myriad of other issues. Gov. officials finally wised up and said "thank you" (to put it gently) and then they made a deal with Samsung/South Korea to import K-9 Thunder chassis'es. We have about 8-ish Krab's that are functioning now, with the "original" chassis'es. They have some issues as I mentioned, however they do work and can make anyone's day a hell lot of worse if they put that 155mm on target.

 

The current plan is to have AS-90 turret and K-9 thunder chassis mated in 2015/2016, tested through and through, and mass production to start the same year, with a Full squadron of 24 Howitzers becoming operational in 2017. There's also a program under development for Smart 155mm munitions.

 

Also, feel free to ask even more questions. I'll post about Polish shells for T-72/PT-91's tomorrow.

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Mr0Buggy Junior Member

Mr0Buggy

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Mr0Buggy,

 

Welcome aboard! (If I haven't welcomed you already)

 

Whew! That post took a lot of work. For CMBS purposes, I wish the fabulous PL-01 Stealth MBT were ready to go, but apparently we'll have to wait until 2018 or so. Sniff.

 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

Thank you for welcome. I wish I could be more active in the community, however since I have not yet bought the Black Sea, my abilities and knowledge about inner game mechanics are somewhat limited.

 

As for PL-01... Well, here's is somewhat a rant of mine about it.

 

Short Version:

hell naw. For a game ? Sure, but hell naw to irl service.

 

Longer version:

PL-01 is nothing more than a bit uparmored CV90, up to 5+ STANAG 4569, which is nothing impressive tbh. It's not even an MBT, more like a Light Tank or an AFV.

 

As a technology demonstrator/proof of concept of the modules ? Sure.

 

Testing of APS for potential future use on PT-91/Rosomak/future BWP/whatever ? Yes please!

Testing of "Stealth" Tech for potential future use ? Sure.

 

Full blown combat vehicle ? Eeeh.

 

Fire support vehicle for infantry is a sound thing to be had (in limited numbers, most of the time you gonna have Armor support for those kind of things). 

 

1. 105mm or 120mm issue: Poland being a post Warsaw Pact nation, it has never used any kind of 105mm shells. Introducing yet another shell standard (beside 120mm for Leos and 125mm for T-72/PT-91) would even further divide limited resources for Production and R&D, and further complicate supply chain in war time. Going for 120mm seems like the best way to go as (afaik, I'm not an expert) some money could be shared among it and Leo 2 munition programs.

 

2. Chassis: CV90 is a foreign product. Starting up it's manufacture would be yet another thing to spend money on. Technology transfer (something our military industry has a major hard on for) is an obvious plus, however it could be done without starting up full scale production.

 

More obvious (and imho. better) choice would be acquiring a foreign turret (!! technology transfer !!) or developing our own (sorta unlikely, we still would need tech to make 120mm guns) and putting it up on the proven Rosomak chassis. 120mm could be a bit of a beast for it, but afaik it can be done, plus yet again, it puts less of a strain on the supply chain as we are getting/using Rosomak variants by the ton.

 

Alternatively, the program to develop BMP-1 successor is also planned to be a modular chassis with a lot of possible variants akin to the Rosomak. If anything, there could be a variant which is PL-01 like in the future.

 

As said, for a game it could be a curious quirky unit with interesting abilities, however for irl. it's a bit of an eh for above mentioned reasons (all of them imho of course).

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danzig5 Member

danzig5

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That new polish rifle the MSBS is looking better and better with time. The kind of gun the ACR should have been, it has all the best ideas from many of the cutting edge rifles.  The conventional layout rifle is particularly attractive, as opposed to the bullpup. Have heard the ones on show at shotshow 2015 were impressive. I can say with confidence I will purchase one once they hit US civilian market.

 

http://youtu.be/27Te9cGGVpI

 

Also, I have said this several times but Poland is life, Poland is love. Including Poland in CMBS in some future module would separate me from my US dollars with impressive speed.

 

In short, add Poland.

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Mr0Buggy Junior Member

Mr0Buggy

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125mm shells compatible with T-72/PT-91 series in Polish service:
 
APFSDS:
3BM-15: up to 340mm RHA at 2000m
3BM-22: up to 430mm RHA at 2000m
"PRONIT": up to 540mm RHA at 2000m (reportedly a Polish clone/copy of the Israeli M711 Mk. 2 [CL-3579])
 
There was/is a program to develop a new shell, with expected 550mm to 610mm RHA at 2000m, however it's in a bit of a limbo for the moment.
 
HEAT:
3BK-14 : 450mm (Manufactured in Poland)
 
HE:
3OF19
3OF26
Unnamed HE shell, appears to be a downsized copy of 3OF19 with smaller weight and warhead (Manufactured in Poland)
 
Photos:
 
PRONIT:
9YlMOvC.jpg
 
M711 Mk. 2
R8yjLcr.jpg
 
3BK-14:
JrF26sB.pngKPBKwYn.png
 
Unnamed HE shell:
CHR6XLJ.pngoddH8JK.png
 
Gonna post up ammo for Polish Leopard 2's in some time, however I need to conduct some more research upon it.
Edited by Mr0Buggy
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