Please assist with explanations!

[Tripps]

Hi All, long time CM player, started coming back with CMBN, but now getting full time into RT.

 

First game up, having lots and lots of what I would call WTF?!?! moments, but im hoping there is something that I can better understand.

 

Note - playing Iron settings. Version 1.03 game eng 3.

 

I thought it would better to try and get some screenshots in, so its easier to visualise.

 

First example:

I had a sniper team that had raced forward into a pretty good spot catching my opponent by surprise and for a good 4 turns picked off quite a few enemies before my opponent started putting some suppression on the team.

The team, auto retreated back into the small house behind them, but being the elite fanatics they were, were not worried in the slightest and were probably chuckling the whole time.

 

For the next turn, I thought they were well overdue to displace anyway so I gave them specific orders on how to retreat safely.

See Pic 1. (yeah i used paint, my bad!)

Red Star is kill area, red arrow is ai retreat option, white arrows were my orders.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/pic1_zpscca2de9f.jpg

 

Now, Elite PixelTruppen Sniper Gelbend decides screw that, I can just run out this other door over here and save myself a good 10 meters on this little run.

 

So this is what happens:

 

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/wrong%20option_zpsagkjtipt.mp4

 

Not only did they run out the wrong door, they also jumped the fence and turned around - as if to jump over it again... needless to say the Russians lay it on thick to avenge their comrades...

 

I start paying attention after i remember there were quite a few little things like that happening, and it does, i notice this happens ALL the time.

 

Second Example.

 

Batt HQ, no where near anyone, just hanging back chilling in a little hut playing cards, but hes now needed so I give one order, run outside and jump in your kubelwagen, your men need you!

I give the Kubelwagen a 30 second delay before bugging out, more than enough time i thought.

 

This happens:

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/where%20you%20goin_zps0pt5umob.mp4

 

Now notice at the 5-7 second mark, as they run out, they lose vision of their kubelwagen for a split second - (iron settings? or wow, that camo job is awesome?) - which must cause them to re-path (Bro! I think i parked around back) so they run around the back, then realise it was in front of them the whole time...

They end up chasing Hans the kubelwagen driver (intercept course!) for another 30 seconds before i get a chance to sort i out.

 

Another thing happens at the 11 second mark - they lose radio comms with everyone, you can see the C2 lines go black - someone knock the radio?

They get a couple red lines back a few seconds later, but unfortunately not to the panther, who brews up next turn - how much of an effect losing comms was i'll never know...

 

So anyways, this is happening continually, i can load more example from just this, my first game - is it just an Iron settings thing where it makes all my pixeltruppen near sighted, crazy, and rebel against my orders?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[womble]

Any chance of screenshots with the actual order paths being shown? Though the angle of the first vid suggests they did some "running through walls" which might indicate a problem with the particular map.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Yes indeed, it would be perfect if we could se the orders given, that way we could better estimate what caused the problem.

For example, in the last video the soldiers seem to run over a fence, then turn and run over it again, we could guess anything, from the presence of a waypoint on the other side to a huge bug.

Without the commanded paths shown it's impossible to say anything..

 

The first screenshot shows some arrows, with the path you had in mind, did you set up that kind of movement with commands? Looks like 4 or 5 waypoints were needed. Did you plot those? Or just a straight line assuming the troops would have followed that path you imagined?

Example: if the command given was this:

Then you can't say exactly what will happen. It's not guaranteed your troops will follow your projected path with arrows.

 

 

Instead if you did this:

then there's no reason for the troops to behave like shown in the first video.

 

A possible explanation would be that they were ordered like the last image I posted, but for some reason (bug) they didn't recognize the closest door (going to the right) and selected the other door (going to the lower-left) to be used.

This lead them to move to the building lower-left corner, where the door is, but they didn't go through the door exactly, they glitched in the corner. (second bug).

 

The second bug might be caused by the presence of the fence, which touches the building corner, a potential nest for a bug..

The first bug might be related to the programming of that specific independent building.

 

Anyway, if we can track which building was that we could reproduce this easily.

 

 

Seems to me independent buildings are in subject here. From what I have seen in these years modular buildings work much better than the independent ones, which are those causing most glitches.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Kieme(ITA)]

I found the building and did a quick test:

With this kind of plotting they used the door on the right:

 

With this kind of plotting they used the door on the left:

 

In the end, it's all up to the position of the waypoints, if it's well on the right side of the building they will Always use the right door (correctly), if the waypoint is slightly low and on the right side they will choose the left door because (evidently) that's the shortest path to the next waypoint... and again correctly in my opinion.

Also, my soldiers never glitched in the wall corner, but that's another problem.

 

I can see another problem, and potential cause of problems in this situation. In my opinion the exact problem of what happened, and it's not a bug:

 

The game is divided into a grid as we all know, made of squares.

That building is placed not precisely inside a square but on 4 different squares.

The waypoints in game are only placed inside a square, precisely in the middle.

This means that you can't place a waypoint exactly on the right of that building, because it will either be a little on top of it (check my first screenshot) or a little on the lower part of it (check second screenshot of mine) (looking from a top down point of view)...

Thus, your waypoint was closer to be reached using the left side door.

 

Picture showing the situation from the editor:

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Kieme(ITA)]

Examples of orders given:

 

 

In this last case the left door was used:

 

In conclusion this situation doesn't show a bug but a complex condition due to the position of the building within the grid, which leads the ordered waypoints to be either skewed North or South of the right door. If the skewness is extreme enough it will make the left door chosen due to a shorter path, thus the AI will use the left door instead of the right one.

Solution: map designers might avoid placing building in between squares.

 

By the way these kind of replies happen when a new CM game is about to be released but it's not out yet.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[A Canadian Cat]

WTF (why the face) moments certainly do happen. There is lots we can do to influence how these things play out. It is worth learning what they are. In my opinion your enjoyment of the game will increase if you caulk those moments up to "stuff happens in war" and remember that your soldiers will not always make the decisions you want. Embrace the suck as someone just recently said.

I am not trying to say just ignore these issues but I am trying to say that you can only influence the way things play out not control them. It is something we all have to accept.

 

Solution: map designers might avoid placing building in between squares.

I agree with your assessment of what is happening. I would say that even if map designers follow that advice situations like this can still happen because a single order to a new building straight below the current one could result in either door getting used. If you want them to use a particular door you need to make sure that first way point will strongly favour that door.

Having said that it is a balancing act. You will also notice that before anyone of your team moves to the next way point they will wait for *everyone* to finish moving to the first way point. What this means is that if you put a way point just outside a door (with the intention to control their exit) they will leave the building and hang around the door until everyone is out. Then they will move on. If being outside the door is not a good place to be you will be sad again. So you have to carefully consider those factors when you setup your way points. Clearly this is less of a factor for a two man team than it is for a 7 man squad.

Your example of the Battalion commander I am less certain about what is going on there but I do have two suggestions. I have no idea what the fence jumping shenanigans might have been so I don't think I can help there. Watching them move they seem to have had a way point near the vehicle since the appear to have collected together just before it. My suggestion would be to not create a way point right next to the vehicle but instead make that last one inside the vehicle. That should prevent the vehicle's pause time running out before while waiting for everyone to arrive. Then when you think 20s is enough time to get to the vehicle make it 30s and if you think 30s is enough make it 45s etc. Consider if they miss their window how bad would it be afterwards? So if you think they can make it to the vehicle in 10s I think you would agree that 50s of driving down a road would suck to catch up to so don't do that. I probably would have gone with 30s in this case but a single way point from their card game directly to into the vehicle.

As for the radios - when the radio operator is moving he cannot be on the comms so his CO's radio communication will be unavailable until he gets to a destination and setup again.

[womble]

...when the radio operator is moving he cannot be on the comms so his CO's radio communication will be unavailable until he gets to a destination and setup again.

And even then, it is possible for an HQ to be off-net; radios in WW2 are not 100% reliable.

[Tripps]

Awesome replies guys - i'll try and answer any questions.

 

First off, im playing via dropbox and not in the habit of saving turns before hitting the red bar. Perhaps I should do from now on, as i appreciate you all have to take my word for it.

 

The sniper team, I am 99% sure I plotted a waypoint directly out the right side door first, before running back down the white arrows - the reason being it was the only covered route to safety - the large group of buildings in front left the Russians had just captured taking heavy losses removing my 4 man SMG squad, directly in front was the unit(s) the sniper team had been engaging - but the right side of the sniper building was the approach march the snipers had taken to the hedge which is on a crest - so i knew that was the only way out.

 

Plus I wasnt sure if i should load them onto the HT, or replace the Plt HQ in the building, so I plotted them behind the building and would make a decision later.

 

Kieme, I could definately place a way point closer to the right side door than you did in your screenshots, the map we used was 39, that came with the game, im at the office now so cant load, but I could definately place a waypoint outside the door before running back.

I appreciate your tests tho, they have given me a better insight into the game mechanics, tonight I will take a screenshot of how close i could place that waypoint - I think in your conclusion it means I will have to load every game into the editor before I play it and look for potential problem areas

 

Regarding the second example, I am 100% sure I selected the Batt HQ, hit B, selected kubelwagen and the embark option - that was it.

For the kubelwagen and gave it a 30 sec delay before driving off - i was careful, because a turn or so before I had tried to load a whole 12 man squad into a truck and didnt give it enough time.

 

IanL there was no way point next to the kubelwagen, the grouping they do is I believe the Ai replotting their next action because their objective has suddenly driven off.

 

The issue there seems to me to be the fact they lose LOS for a second..

[Tripps]

IanL, on 30 Jan 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

...when the radio operator is moving he cannot be on the comms so his CO's radio communication will be unavailable until he gets to a destination and setup again.

And even then, it is possible for an HQ to be off-net; radios in WW2 are not 100% reliable.

 

Ok, So if the radio operator is moving comms go down.. it would be nice if they lost comms as soon as they move then, rather than 10 seconds after they start moving, that would make it more obvious as to whats happening, or put it in the manual - how do you know this BTW?

Also, watching the C2 lines, at the 30 second mark when they start running again, they re-establish C2 to the Jeep (they should have yelled Halt! ) and also another line comes up, thats going to a HT mounting a quad 20mm, at least 500 meters away through trees, so that must be a radio link - is it possible radio comms are tentative/sporadic while moving instead? And is this something we are just noticing in game only? Because I cant find anything in the manuals..

[Tripps]

Examples of orders given:

 

 

In this last case the left door was used:

 

In conclusion this situation doesn't show a bug but a complex condition due to the position of the building within the grid, which leads the ordered waypoints to be either skewed North or South of the right door. If the skewness is extreme enough it will make the left door chosen due to a shorter path, thus the AI will use the left door instead of the right one.

Solution: map designers might avoid placing building in between squares.

 

By the way these kind of replies happen when a new CM game is about to be released but it's not out yet.

 

I want to add more to this, as I believe you are on the right track as to why my guys didnt follow orders.

I will be doing some tests tonight myself - but another part to the equation is the location of the door in the building, the left hand door is further back than the right hand side.

 

Your last screenshot probably gives the best example, from us looking down, the shortest point from the building to the end waypoint is the right hand side, BUT, if the door on the left hand side is lower, its probably a 50-50 call as to which way is faster (as in total distance travelled)

When they get outside there is a couple fences to jump over, but maybe they didnt know that at the time..

 

Keep in mind my guys were just inside the right hand side door at the start of the turn as well.

 

I dont want to have to embrace the suck, as was mentioned, but i dont want to have to micromanage over several turns either (first turn, give them orders to exit right, completely next turn go back 20 m, next turn go left etc)

[A Canadian Cat]

Your last screenshot probably gives the best example, from us looking down, the shortest point from the building to the end waypoint is the right hand side, BUT, if the door on the left hand side is lower, its probably a 50-50 call as to which way is faster (as in total distance travelled)

That difference in door placement will play a factor for sure.

 

I dont want to have to embrace the suck

Oh then you are in for a rough ride [that's intended to be funny]

[A Canadian Cat]

IanL there was no way point next to the kubelwagen, the grouping they do is I believe the Ai replotting their next action because their objective has suddenly driven off.

 

The issue there seems to me to be the fact they lose LOS for a second..

Yes, I am sure you are correct once the game determined that the kubelwagen was not going to be waiting it probably created that way point. I really doubt that the loss of spotting is the issue. I think it was the odd pathing choices that chewed up more than 30s that did it.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Watching them move they seem to have had a way point near the vehicle since the appear to have collected together just before it. My suggestion would be to not create a way point right next to the vehicle but instead make that last one inside the vehicle.

The waypoint was probably added by the TacAI. It often does this presumably to gather all the individual truppen before embarking. If you plot a movement order to embark that requires the unit to move for more than one turn to reach the vehicle you will often see the added waypoint at the beginning of the next turn.

[Tripps]

Well, since we have finished the game and my opponent has generously given me his password, I can test some things.

First up was the HQ - and here are his orders:

 

As you can see, one direct order, no way points or anything - and the turn played out almost identical, this time they lost sight for a second or two longer:

 

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/hq%20take%202_zpsdg96gvfl.mp4

 

So lets look at the sniper team, orders screen:

 

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/sniperorders_zps05958883.jpg

 

And this time, they dont even try and take the shortest route...

 

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/sniper%20take%202_zpsgfhskatr.mp4

 

 

This is just my first time replicating the orders...

[Kieme(ITA)]

The sniper team, just after exiting the door, goes a bit to the left before they start going to the right towards the waypoint, that is due to the fact that the game ground is devided into grids, and troops move from one grid center towards the other (more or less all of those within a team).

 

As I showed you that building is sitting in the middle of 4 squares. The troops inside are in my belief treated by the game engine as they were in a single square, because the inside of the building is in this terms a free zone, when going out of it they find themselves hanging among two squares, one a bit on the left, one a bit on the right, They went left instead of right because the game engine recognized the left square and made them move there in order to re-align to the grid system of the ground. Then they recognized the waypoint and turned to that.

 

We can all see that in this situation that move was a disaster, because they went into a fire zone, but the problem is releated to the interaction between units, the building, and terrain grid. It's not a bug per se, it's a limitation of the game engine, if you will. You can plot precisely a route as long as the system recognizes the squares. I still belive that the building placed in the middle of 4 squares obliges the AI to reach one of the outer squares' center before it can follow any other path, and I still belive that placing the building among 4 squares is what makes this move happen.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[GAZ NZ]

I appreciate it being a limitation of the game engine but as Tripps oponent in this any small thing like that in our close games can kill a unit and give the edge to the oponent. Can ruin the game.

Thanks for your explanations to help solve this. That way we know.

Ive also just sent a ticket for a bug to BF. RT game my T 34 shoots two HE shots through the panther of my oponent front on. like it was never there. It explodes well behind and my mg from t34 is pinging off panther armour. It very clear and they can watch the turn.

Thats a major bug. Pbm turn sent for them to comment on.

I have never seen it happen in 30+ odd RT pbms ive played.

Lol

[Tripps]

Ok, I went into scenario editor, fired up the scenario, and found the building in particular, all the buildings in this map are on an angle.

 

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah202/jonniedeboer/scenedit_zpsccc7b72a.jpg

 

I think you are on the right track, altho "when going out of it they find themselves hanging among two squares" - isnt quite right now because the middle is pretty much where I put the way point...

[Kieme(ITA)]

I found the right building, it's not exactly the one I picked before, because this one is turned 45°, adding more complexity to the pathfinding.

The building in question is sitting on a 5 squares position. Where the middle square is entirely inside the building, and the other 4 squares are covered by 1 half each.

The game engine works with squares, as we know, but these squares are devided in two parts if the situation occurs, such situation is, for example, a fence running amid the square thus dividing it in two, both logically and for the game's brain.

 

 

Now, this picture shows where you can place your command, it's a half square (or a triangle) due to the presence of the fence, the White marks indicate the grid.

 

As you can see the door is closer to the right outside square than to the left outside square... So that's the reason the AI recognizes the right side square as the closest one, and as per my description in the previous post, the AI will go there in order to re-align with the grid system before reaching the first waypoint.

 

The first waypoint is directly outside the building, that's true, but it's 2 squares away in the game's brain eyes, therefore the closest square to use is the one on the right.

I replicated the movements and no matter where you place the first waypoint outside the building, the units will go to the (in this case) firezone before aligning to the waypoint. So it's a matter of grid.

 

Take a look at this:

from the game's brain point of view, the troops are in square a, and they are ordered to go to half square c, they can't go directly there, so the game picks the closest square between a and c in order to "fill the gap" of the logic command. It picks b, because it's the most logical square to use in order to reach c.. in order to re-align with the grid system the troops will have the tendency to reach square b center before turning towards the waypoint.

 

A gridded terrain mod might help with precise order plotting, although I belive BFC should add a "show grid" option or quick hotkey, enabling or disabling the fictional grid system used by the game.

 

In a far future game development they could either reduce the grid size, thus allowing for even more precise plotting (and terrain detailing) but raising the calculation complexity; or they could somehow disloge the ground grid from the order plotting (waypoint plotting), but I am not sure how the system works so whatever.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[womble]

You're doing pretty well so far Kieme

In the original example, though, the sniper team runs out the other door into the corner of fence that would be carving up square "h" to the top left of the building as you have it in your pic. Any ideas why that might be?

ISTR though that diagonally oriented buildings have been pinged as causing issues in the past.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Well, for the troops using the "wrong" door the waypoint must have been different than the one shown on my test and also on Tripps' test, which both handle the same result. I'd say the original plot was in e square. Otherwise there's no explanation for the troops using the wrong door to reach the ordered c square, unless, in that particular case, the AI failed to recognize the presence of the "right" door, which is abasolutely possible because, as you said, there were many reports of problems with building entrances etc. and that kind of bug took most of the patch development time for what I understood.

I don't really trust these independent buildings.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Tripps]

Kieme, I really do appreciate your replies, I understand your point, from looking at the screenshot in the scenario editor from my point of view, I see the door touching the immediate corner of a square, so an order from A - to C, using your pictures, wouldnt run through D or B (might touch both briefly tho)

 

Following that logic then, when a unit runs diagonally from the center of one square to another, it will cross a point of 4 squares,its exit square, and 3 others - at that point - TacAi can change the square you are running to?

 

See my cool paint drawing

 

I do notice however, that in the scenario editor, the little cabbage garden is directly level with the house, however, in game it is off to one side... is that what is causing all this, the replication of the scenario into 3D?

[Kieme(ITA)]

 

 

I do notice however, that in the scenario editor, the little cabbage garden is directly level with the house, however, in game it is off to one side... is that what is causing all this, the replication of the scenario into 3D?

 

Wait, the cabbage garden is a flavour object and you can't see it in the editor.

 

But I understand what you mean, take a look at the fence, in the editor you can see that the fence opening tile is exactly aligned with the building side, it's directly in front of it, right?:

 

Instead, in game, it's not precisely aligned:

 

There's a sort of skewness in the 3d rendering yes.

So, the door is not exactly in the corner of 4 Tiles, it's a bit on the side, you can see it if you plot a waypoint, the highlighted yellow square is not precisely in front of the door.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Kieme(ITA)]

On the grid problem.

Here is a thing:

I Painted 4 squares using a highway mod, the highway Tiles go over the terrain and fill exactly at 100% a single square, with no fading at the borders, so you can see that these 5 squares covered by the building are 100% Painted by the concrete, as you can see the building appears to be exactly in the middle of the X, like showed by the editor:

 

The image shows my movement command and you can see that the highlighted square is not precisely aligned with the terrain grid, and the resulting waypoint is not exactly in the middle of the square as you would imagine... especially if you see that the door seems really to be in front of the terrain square corner.

 

 

Moving the mouse over the right square reveals a bit of overflow on the other square.

 

Therefore there's a wrong alignment between the command grid system (which comes on when you plot waypoints by means of the yellowish highlight) and the real terrain grid.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Tripps]

Wait, the cabbage garden is a flavour object and you can't see it in the editor.

Ah, my bad, looks like cabbages from here but they just trees!

[Tripps]

There's a sort of skewness in the 3d rendering yes.

So, the door is not exactly in the corner of 4 Tiles, it's a bit on the side, you can see it if you plot a waypoint, the highlighted yellow square is not precisely in front of the door.

ahah, thats why your grid lines were (what I thought) off center a little