Jump to content
Cuddles the Warmonger

American vs. Sov..err Russian Infantry

Recommended Posts

Very interesting thread. I admit I don't understand most of it, because I'm not familiar with modern equipment.

 

At the risk of a slight derail, anyone have an idea how much it costs to put one U.S. squad into combat? Sounds to me like it could go into the millions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An interesting point to note - Bahcha-U (turret on BMD4M and availiable for BMP3 upgrades) not only has modern FCS related equipment, it has a very curious capability. Firing from a NLOS position at a target 7km, with it's parameters fed via the network centric command system (data is input into FCS automatically via the datalink and command equipment in the vehicle).

 

This means that a unit armed with those vehicles has a very substantial organic light artillery capability right there and then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so here's more or less why the topic exists:

 

 

 

I know the quality of an infantry force cannot be seen just through numbers and data alone, but traditionally some forces have been seen as better than others. That being said, is there a certain hierarchy to the infantry of CMBS (in this case not counting special weapons, just the regular grunt). Would it look something like American>Russian>Ukranian or American~Russian>Ukranian (I'm completely spit balling here and just going from the traditional military standpoint, based off of Soviet Afghanistan, Russian Georgia, American Iraq, etc..

 

I think this has been answered quite effectively.  A lot of the capabilities for the Russian forces discussed here are either future-not-included-in-game-for-lack-of-detail, not organic parts of a rifle squad, or inferior/have parity with American hardware.  Given what CMBS currently laid out, the basic American squad/infantry unit appears to be the superior one in capabilities.

 

 

 

Are you talking about the US usage of thermobarics in the last paragraph?

 

Yes.  My apologies, I've been writing off and on between attempts to sleep before finally giving up. There are US weapons of similar design that can, and are issued when blowing up bunkers and the like become a priority.  They're much less prevalent than their Russian counterparts, but they're still systems that if we were dealing with US troops in a situation that collateral damage is not a concern, would be operating in number.  The USMC used the SMAW-NE round extensively in Iraq during Fallujah, and both the 40 MM and 25 MM grenade families have thermobaric rounds.  They're not especially frequently issued because at this point we're no longer digging Taliban out of caves (partly because we buried a lot of them in caves the first time, so they've stopped using them so much).

 

So to that end any squad with a M320 or M25 (which is to say all of them) is capable of employing small themobaric weapons.

 

 

 

An interesting point to note - Bahcha-U (turret on BMD4M and availiable for BMP3 upgrades) not only has modern FCS related equipment, it has a very curious capability. Firing from a NLOS position at a target 7km, with it's parameters fed via the network centric command system (data is input into FCS automatically via the datalink and command equipment in the vehicle).

 

What's it's NLOS dead space?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And while not as sexy hardware decked out, they do have some good stuff (more night vision than Ukrainian forces at least, RPG-29s, functional dismounted coms).
 

 

No RPG-29s in the base game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

No RPG-29s in the base game.

Weeeeeird.  I'd gotten used to just staying a few hundred meters back from Syrian SOF units in SF and dropping the building to avoid those things.  Life is a little easier I guess.

 

 

 

25mm Thermobaric must be sort of... weird.  Is it even effective at that caliber?

 

It's actually condensed George S. Patton fury, and explodes with the violence of a thousand novas so that thine enemies may be smote and our blessed tracks greased with their guts.

 

In confined spaces the sort of force a small themobaric weapons makes becomes catastrophic.  Like the old concussion grenades were pretty much gen one less than lethal grenades in the open, but drop one in a bunker and everyone's guts are jello, folks bleeding from all orifices etc.  What makes the 25 MM neat is it fires in a fairly flat trajectory so putting it though a window is pretty much point and click.  Then the airburst option means you can fuse it to go off 1-2 meters in the room, and the overpressure sorts things out.

 

Makes for wrecked faces I imagine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

No RPG-29s in the base game.

Nor in real life - it was tried out by Russian military; but never really adopted due to its excessive weight and size... There are probably a couple of thousand launchers rusting in some warehouses in the middle of Siberian tundra wilderness; but it is not used by Russian military for any practical purposes.

 

Its manufacturers have tried to reposition it as a substitute for an SPG-9 since the rejection by Russian military; but the newer projects like RPG-32 seem to be much more prospective in that regard..

Edited by DreDay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didnt they just give the same projectile to the RPG-7 instead though?

 

No, not quite... PG-7VR (that you are referring to) has the same tandem warhead design and general penetration numbers as PG-29V; but its ballistics are extremely poor when compared to PG-29V.

 

BTW, the same warhead design is also used in RPG-27 LAW; but again the ballistic performance (i.e. range and accuracy) is much worse than  PG-29V...

Edited by DreDay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: RPG-29s

 

Gotcha.  They were part of the middle eastern terrain, didn't know they didn't make it in the motherland

 

Re: NLOS

 

It still isn't a mortar.  There's a practical crossover point where something not line of sight is too close to engage but sill lacks LOS to shoot in the first place.

Edited by panzersaurkrautwerfer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, it does go above 45 degrees in elevation though (the entire 100mm+30mm+7.62mm package is elevated together, 30mm is used for AA). The better comparison would be with a light howziter I guess.

Edited by ikalugin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ability to fire NLOS is a huge edge.  There was a semi guided round in development for the Abrams with generally similar performance.  The army seems to have decided it make more sense to carry more of the new airburst round and sabot instead. 

 

It would be a huge plus for 40 mm grenade launchers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The NLOSish round I've seen stuff on was closer to the ultra-STAFF round sort of thing, where it'd overfly something and dump a shaped charge through the roof well outside ATGM range.  Post M60 tank gun elevation is bad enough to make indirect firing problematic.

 

It'll be interesting to see how it stacks up vs semi-precision/precision mortars.  The current generation of US SP mortar systems still require manual elevation/traverse, but it's cued off a computer once the location is fed in, and it already talks to the navigation/weather information, so basically once you stick the grids in, it'll tell you what to do, then fire mission go (and at that the mission itself can be transmitted direct from any vehicle/dismounted unit on the BFT infrastructure).  

 

Again it's interesting.  I'm a bigger fan of mortars though given the sort of dead space inherent to a lower angle short range system myself.  

Edited by panzersaurkrautwerfer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again it's interesting.  I'm a bigger fan of mortars though given the sort of dead space inherent to a lower angle short range system myself.  

 

Agreed, it makes no sense to me to use one of the best protected and most expensive armored vehilcles in the world for indirrect fire role that can be handled just as well (if not better) by artillerly pieces that cost a fraction of what an Abrams does...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The NLOSish round I've seen stuff on was closer to the ultra-STAFF round sort of thing, where it'd overfly something and dump a shaped charge through the roof well outside ATGM range.  Post M60 tank gun elevation is bad enough to make indirect firing problematic.

 

It'll be interesting to see how it stacks up vs semi-precision/precision mortars.  The current generation of US SP mortar systems still require manual elevation/traverse, but it's cued off a computer once the location is fed in, and it already talks to the navigation/weather information, so basically once you stick the grids in, it'll tell you what to do, then fire mission go (and at that the mission itself can be transmitted direct from any vehicle/dismounted unit on the BFT infrastructure).  

 

Again it's interesting.  I'm a bigger fan of mortars though given the sort of dead space inherent to a lower angle short range system myself.  

I guess you won't mind having something on the lines of Ru 120mm mortars and 100mm low pressure guns then (automatically traversed and elevated in accordance to the received fire mission)?

(plus the new 40mm and 57mm AGLs).

Edited by ikalugin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indifferent.  I haven't seen much good about the Russian communications type systems, BFT and AFATDS both are mature and I've had good results with both.  Also I've had bad experience with automatic systems,  anything that puts more variables in the court of the lowest bidder should usually be distrusted.  Also if I'm picking location finding I'd rather be on GPS, less holes, higher fidelity, larger constellation.  

 

Our M1064s were about as responsive as you're going to get with good clearance of fires.  The slowdown was making sure the mortar wasn't going to shoot down a wandering South Korean helicopter, not the aiming process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a difference between what you are describing and having 6 120mm guns (with 152mm destruction performance), 45 100mm guns (light field NLOS kind), light mortars at a battalion (36 152mm long barrel guns and 6 MRLs are at the BDe lvl).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weer,

 

Ref your #20, I believe you are incorrect. Stryker, as originally fielded, was proof vs the powerful 14.5 mm AP (less an MG than an autocannon) in the forward arc and vs 7.62 x 54 AP all around. Add-on ceramic armor for Stryker provides all-round protection vs 14.5 mm KPVT. 14.5 mm is much more potent than the .50 BMG, which means that the .50 firing AP will not penetrate the original Stryker in the forward arc or the up-armored Stryker from any angle. Not sure about SLAP. Have zero idea what range all these immunity numbers were specced from, though.

 

DreDay,

 

What is MSV, please? Acronym I never crossed paths with until now.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ikalugin,

 

Thanks for explaining that. Regarding what you seem to believe is a Javelin equivalent, the Avtonomiya, it's quite clear from the placard that while the range is similar, the top attack capabiliity is that of, say, a Bill or TOW2B--firing downward into the roof-- after flying smack through the APS coverage zone. Avtonomiya has no top attack dive mode, thus can't avoid the APS as the Javelin does. Obviously, if it's fielded it's going to make things a lot tougher on the opponent, and from farther out, but it'll be no Javelin.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

P.S.

 

Is there some central site, preferably in English, where I can go to to learn about all the current and certain to be fielded soon Russian weaponry and kit? The ROSBORONEXPORT catalog was helpful, but it's the best part of a decade old, at least, what's online for free. I'm all but drowning in new systems, GRAU designators, acronyms and nicknames, let alone the various capabilities. l had tons of the earlier info down pat during the Cold War, was a walking threat encyclopedia for over a decade, but while many things I knew about and studied still remain in service around the world, the newer systems simply didn't exist when it was my business to know everything from AKs to orbital ASATs and particle beam weapons. I'm doing what I can, when I can to catch up, but it is, as we say here in the States, like drinking from a fire hose!

Edited by John Kettler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weeeeeird.  I'd gotten used to just staying a few hundred meters back from Syrian SOF units in SF and dropping the building to avoid those things.  Life is a little easier I guess.

 

 

 

The PG7VR round, or VL i cant remember, has the same tandem 105mm warhead as the RPG-29. Just less accuracy, acquisition, and range capability because of the limitations of the RPG-7V platform.

 

Infantry vs infantry alone, the US forces will have the edge, especially at night. Be fun to see some good night battles. Will go to show how effective the new dual thermal/infra-red optic nods that they are equipped with.

Edited by Stagler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ikalugin,

 

The Avtonomiya placard talks about two missile types: The first is a pure DF weapon with a tandem shaped charge; the second is top attack via overflight and uses, if the table is to be believed, an HE-frag warhead! This may, though, be a poor translation for a EFF warhead. In any event, two missiles or no, you still have no Javelin type diving top attack weapon in either model of the Avtonomiya. That's not my opinion. That's what the manufacturer is clearly stating to be true.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...