How to take out IS-2?

[Reiter]

How to take out IS-2?

 

Yesterday, in pbem battle IS-2 took out my 2 Panthers. They did not even have time to react on fire. After first casualty, I made short 102mm howitzer strike towards its positions and ordered remaining Panther to hunt it down. IS-2 made the first shot and it went right through the whole Panther.

 

Are there possibilities to take that beast out with other, than Schreck and faust? How?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Reiter

[Baneman]

Sounds like you were unlucky with Spotting, but otherwise, Panther gun can KO an IS-2.

[womble]

For once a report where it sounds like the static vehicle got the drop on the moving ones. While you might have been unlucky, you weren't stacking the odds in your favour, by being the one moving, or by going up against the IS-2 one kitty at a time. While howitzers can get lucky kills on some armour with top rear deck hits, the best you might have reasonably hoped for from your strike might've been some immobilisation and some optics damage (once you've made the tank button up), and the obscuring dust clouds work both ways.

Which isn't to say it's 100% certain that nothing hinky happened in your case; you just haven't given anywhere near enough detail to make anyone think this is even potentially an unexpected result.

[Reiter]

 

 

you might have reasonably hoped for from your strike might've been some immobilisation and some optics damage (once you've made the tank button up), and the obscuring dust clouds work both ways.

This is what I excepted. Had none other way to try. Enemy had 3 tanks, that IS front of me, and we were on map edge. I did not want to risk Panther by moving it to left, because feared those two tanks could hit my armor sides. So, only way what I found was to try hunt it down right after that howitzer bombardment. 

[JasonC]

In my experience, "hunt" is very unreliable in these situations.  The Panther can "cower" when it actually re-establishes LOS, and try to reverse away instead of firing.  It can also be slow to fire.

 

Unbuttoned to get a spot quickly; other units that can see the IS-2; a short fast move to a halting position you have selected that will have LOS but isn't a long way into LOS; an armored covered arc over the target with some width to spare.  Doesn't mean the enemy won't shoot first - and for later model IS-2s, the Panther round can bounce off it is hit the front hull (a turret hit will go in). But it maximizes your chances.

 

One man's experiences...

[Sgt Joch]

one very important point to remember, from all the playtesting I have done, with equal crew quality, a stationary tank has a huge spotting advantage against a moving tank.

[Baneman]

...  The Panther can "cower" when it actually re-establishes LOS, and try to reverse away instead of firing.  It can also be slow to fire.

...

 

Are you sure ? I haven't seen this in CMRT - are you not remembering old CMBB behaviour ?

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah a Panther will fire on an IS2 if it has LOF. Even if it decides to back away it will have no trouble shooting.

The trick to coming out ahead is to get more guns able to fire on the target than the enemy has. If you are stuck going one on one with something then either give up and do something else or use other units to find the IS2 and figure out where it is facing and have the Panther flank it. The best chance for a moving tank to get the drop on a stationary one is to come on its side or rear.

Yeah, I know easier said than done.

[womble]

Another alternative would be to use a smoke mission rather than an HE one to give the kitties concealment to either change the equation in the vs-IS2 fight or to go over and twonk the "other two" tanks, thus changing the equation of the vs-IS2 fight. If you've been canalised into only being able to come at the IS-2 from its best spotting quadrant, then you your opponent's plan has worked better than yours did, and you need to adapt, not just accept the fight he's offered you on his terms.

[JasonC]

Baneman - no, in CMSF, not old CMBB.  It wasn't with a Panther vs an IS-2, it was with a StuG facing a T-34/85.  But it happened and more than once.  I don't trust "hunt".

[womble]

Baneman - no, in CMSF, not old CMBB.  It wasn't with a Panther vs an IS-2, it was with a StuG facing a T-34/85.  But it happened and more than once.  I don't trust "hunt".

Were the StuG crew in a bad way, morale or leadership-wise? I've seen tanks and TDs with missing TCs and/or which have been through the wringer get "squirrelly" in the face of finding a target that can shoot back and hurt them, but not "steady" troops. This in BN and FI rather than RT, but I don't believe the engine has any differences in this regard. I'm talking about troops that have been Shaken or worse and only recovered to Rattled, really. And it didn't matter whether they were on Hunt or Fast orders. I've had Italian 90mm Semoventes stalking Shermans (which are a definite existential threat) on Hunt and not had them wig out.

[slysniper]

Baneman - no, in CMSF, not old CMBB.  It wasn't with a Panther vs an IS-2, it was with a StuG facing a T-34/85.  But it happened and more than once.  I don't trust "hunt".

 

I think you have a justified point, It would take a little testing to prove. But I am sure as I have tested other tank duels, there is times a few tanks just want to get out of there instead of fight. I just have thought of it as a random percentage that they threw in or something that might cause the action. But it sure would not be hard to find out if the game does it and about how often.

For at least a certain duel.

[Apocal]

If I have LOS on the unit with a valid spotter, I'll sometimes put mortar rounds on/in front of the track while moving my own counter into position, unbuttoned. It is far from being a guaranteed kill, but it helps somewhat. Other than that, why bring just one when you can bring two for twice the price?

[womble]

If I have LOS on the unit with a valid spotter, I'll sometimes put mortar rounds on/in front of the track while moving my own counter into position, unbuttoned. It is far from being a guaranteed kill, but it helps somewhat. Other than that, why bring just one when you can bring two for twice the price?

If nothing else, the mortars will encourage the opposing TC to button and thus improve your odds of winning the spotting race.

[Lille Fiskerby]

Usually when I have Panther Tanks I'm a "happy camper", the best tank in WW II, so how to use it ?

Always open up for your TC, very important, unless their are enemy infantry close to your tanks.

Use infantry scout teams with binoculars to look for enemy tanks, once located, use mortars to button his

TC's if you don't have the time to call in mortars/artillery use machineguns and/or sniperteams.

Get in good positions try and get in on his flank, sometimes use armor arc to focus on a special area.

Use houses and trees to cover your flanks and get in hull down positions as offen as possible.

[womble]

Using armour arcs is a double-edged sword. A big "map-covering" circular arc is good for making sure your tank isn't distracted by infantry, so not much problem there. A smaller "segment" arc, though, can sometimes be drawn too small, and the movement of the hunter or the target can take the target out of the arc, meaning the seeking tank doesn't fire on it, or even doesn't stop its "Hunt" move when it does spot the target. Given that assigning a Target Arc doesn't "focus the unit's attention" beyond rotating the turret so the better optics are aligned with the axis of the segment, ATAs are mostly useful for having the turret pointed in (roughly) the right direction at the point there's expected to be a firing opportunity that's off the hull's fore-aft axis. To achieve this orientation, a very wide, just sub-180 arc is sufficient, though more difficult to judge the central axis of. However, firing over your side armour at a target means that any return fire hitting your hull will be hitting your hull's side armour, which is a waste when you've got that lovely thick sloped glacis that has at least a chance of deflecting or mitigating the impact.

So the best way to approach your firing position, if it's possible, is to move in a way that presents your front armour to the enemy when you break cover, which will also mean your gun is pointing at him if you've set a map-blanketing target arc. No chance of the target not being in-arc, and you have the best chance of surviving any return fire.

Second best is the "short pop-out" where your turret is pointed at the target, meaning your engagement time is short enough that you can reverse back into cover before the enemy can rotate to bear. This needs good observation on the target to make sure his gun isn't pointed at where you're going to pop out before you show yourself.

[Lille Fiskerby]

I agree that you have to be careful with cover arcs, you pointed that out very nicely womble, especially playing wego, but it can be very useful over longer distances where you may have visual on enemy tank or

suspect enemy tank and kind of "zoom in" on the enemy tank with your arc.

[Reiter]

Good discussion here. My mistake was, that Panther was buttoned, so was IS, but advantage was in him side, because my tank was moving. What you think about (slow) -command? Better than hunt? I found that every vechile drove quite fast, even on hunt. Not so good for spotting, dunno? Slow with armor arc?

[Lille Fiskerby]

I Use slow command because of the terrain, like crossing roads, trenches and muddy ground not so much for spotting abilities, if I want to scout it's best to stop the Tank.

[womble]

I agree that you have to be careful with cover arcs, you pointed that out very nicely womble, especially playing wego, but it can be very useful over longer distances where you may have visual on enemy tank or suspect enemy tank and kind of "zoom in" on the enemy tank with your arc.

Thanks for the compliment, but I have to say it sounds like I've failed to dispel the misapprehension that TAs help your pTruppen do anything like "zoom in" on anything. All they do is point the turret. While that does mean that more optics are pointed approximately the right way, it doesn't mean they are solely looking at the area of the arc, or anything like. And it's even arguable that it's a less-optimal thing to do as the range increases, since the arc rotates with the hull and a smaller angular deflection is required to throw the arc completely off the target if the arc only just covers it. You should be using broader arcs at longer range, not shorter.

On the whole, the concept of "zooming in" is one you that should avoid associating with TAs in general.

[Lille Fiskerby]

And it's even arguable that it's a less-optimal thing to do as the range increases, since the arc rotates with the hull and a smaller angular deflection is required to throw the arc completely off the target if the arc only just covers it. You should be using broader arcs at longer range, not shorter.

 

Never thought of arcs that way, will try it out.

[JasonC]

Reiter - don't use slow.  You aren't trying to spot him *while* you are moving, you are trying to get the movement itself completely over and done with as soon as possible.  All the real action happens after you halt.

 

On covered arcs, yes they have to be wide enough.  The enemy will move, and if he is outside of the arc when you halt, you will ignore him until he drills you.  Still can't do without them, however.  Armored arc is needed to avoid distraction by nearer infantry targets before you have LOS to the enemy tank.  They also let you "train" the turret to the desired bearing without restricting your tank to driving straight in that direction - which would set up no side angle (worse protection) and generally require more fiddly tank rotation (and thus delay) before the movement.  You want the movement itself to be in a completely straight line that makes sense on your local terrain, to be clean and fast and involve no slow rotation movements.  The desired effect is just - he physically can't see anything, he physically can't see anything, then you are clear into LOS moving briskly and already halting, you have stopped a split second later, unbuttoned, and turret trained directly at him.  That still won't *ensure* you get first shot.  But especially if he is pointed elsewhere, has any other targets to look at, or is buttoned - it maximizes your chances.

[Bulletpoint]

I wish there were a "turret facing" command. Mainly because I like to use my tanks like battleships, firing broadsides.

 

Furthermore because some times, I just want my tank to drive down a aroad with its turret facing right, since pre-battle intel says there will be enemy infantry in a building that only comes into view on the right after a crossroads for example.

 

So to open fire on the house and suppress them immediately, I'd like to turn the turret, but at the same time (and this is crucial) still be able to let the TacAi override this if suddenly an AT-gun or enemy tank pops into view further down the road directly in front of the tank.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[Michael Emrys]

I wish there were a "turret facing" command. Mainly because I like to use my tanks like battleships, firing broadsides.

 

Furthermore because some times, I just want my tank to drive down a aroad with its turret facing right, since pre-battle intel says there will be enemy infantry in a building that only comes into view on the right after a crossroads for example.

 

So to open fire on the house and suppress them immediately, I'd like to turn the turret, but at the same time (and this is crucial) still be able to let the TacAi override this if suddenly an AT-gun or enemy tank pops into view further down the road directly in front of the tank.

 

I think that for the present the closest you can come to that is to give them a 180° covered arc with the center of the arc pointed in the desired direction. If you have more than one turreted vehicle in the formation, give each one a slightly different covered arc to try to anticipate where trouble might come from.

 

Michael

[Sublime]

Actually if you hold shift when you set your covered arc you still have to pick a spot to click on to 'set' tge covered arc.  This is the spot the AI designates as the focus of the covered 360 degree arc. so you can solve the problem of units moving out of the arc and turret positioning this way.   Hold down shift + click when setting the arc, and click where you think the threat is. the Arc is 360 but the turret turns twds where you clicked.

Has the problem of vehicles even on pause with movement orders after shooting (while on pause stationary) as if they were moving been fixed?