pnzrldr Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 To the original comment on 'terrorists.' Don't care what you call them, when someone is shooting at you you should not feel any particular remorse at shooting back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Active-duty 24 year US Army Armor Lieutenant Colonel. 55ish total months deployed to combat zone, Kuwait, Iraq, AFG, since 9-11. 7 months in Bosnia (near Tuzla) as Tank Company CDR in 1st CAV in 1999 during Kosovo crisis. 200+ combat patrols in Baghdad in 2006 as Cav Squadron S-3. Been hit by multiple IEDs on my vehicle, just missed getting SVESTed in Kunar AFG, shelled, mortared and RPG'ed on FOB and off, shot at, shot, rocks thrown at me, cursed, flipped off and given the evil eye on more than one occasion. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever thrown a grenade at me or dropped a bomb on me. Got to shoot my rifle at bad guys on exactly one instance in Kunduz, N. AFG in 2010. Pretty sure I missed (got off about a half mag with my M-4 at 800ish meters at unseen enemy) but you never know. Got shot in the chest by an IIS Iraqi Sniper with an SVD in Baghdad in 2006. Bullet hit above my ESAPI and struck an aluminum rock climbing carabiner that was holding my M-4 on my vest. Shattered that, and then penetrated 7 of 9 layers of flexible Kevlar in the vest. Came in at a nice shallow angle so it didn't quite penetrate. Knocked me A** over tea-kettle, and hurt me pretty bad. 3d degree burn on my chest from the impact, but 3 days recovery and good to go. 3mm left or right and I'm Maus tot (dead as a mouse). Scary part is I know guys who got closer to dead than me. Most fear I ever felt in combat was getting out of the armored HMMWV on first daylight patrol out after I got hit. Never scared when getting shot at, although apprehensive on a few instances. Got in an ambush once - 'idiots' shooting at us in our uparmored trucks (baiting us into IED ambush - worked too!). I saw a guy shooting at us, and my gunner was missing him. I wanted so bad to open the door of the truck and snap one into his head with my M-4. But I knew there were other guys shooting at us from other angles that I had not identified, and I decided (correctly) that my job was to lead the patrol, not get zapped shooting at the one damn insurgent I could see. So I stayed where I was and bravely and brilliantly led the patrol straight into the IEDs! My gunner got knocked unconscious (again) but thankfully no one else got hurt. Extraordinarily frustrating to get hit with IEDs or shelled and be completely incapable of fighting back. We were glad afterwards (including my gunner) that we at least got to shoot at them. On gore; slipped and fell on a chunk of fat blown out of a civilian guy's abdomen once at a VBIED scene. If I hadn't fallen, I would have been out from behind cover when the 60mm round landed a dozen or so meters away a couple seconds later. Fretted for months over the stain it left on my boot. Nothing would get it out. We had to pick up an assasinated shia doctor once in Baghdad, whose body the insurgents left lying in the road. Put him in a bag, just as his 20ish nurse daughter arrived on scene, going understandably nuts. Naturally, she spoke fluent English and wasn't shy about laying blame for her father's death on the Yankee thugs who had invaded her country in the first place (as opposed to the Sunni insurgents who killed her dad just for being a shia). Remember my troops became quite unhappy when I told them they had to put the body bag inside the HMMWV out of respect so we could take him to the morgue at the Iraqi hospital. Doubly pissed at me when the bag leaked inside the HMMWV. In Kunar, watched a guy pick up SVEST bomber's boot, leg still attached, and put in an ambulance. War is gory. Biggest fear - seeing kids get hurt. I've dealt with seeing US troops hurt and killed - we all volunteered at some point, so it is bad but not unbearable for me. Admittedly, never had a close friend killed while I was around, though an Afghan Army LT murdered my former company XO in AFG last year - I was pretty upset when I heard, but I was stateside at the time. Adults getting hurt, well we all take our chances right? It is a war. Kids getting hurt sucks. I have two kids. I love them, and I just can't wrap my head around the idea of them or others like them getting hurt by us adult's messes. My boss in Baghdad had a lady come up and ask him to get his medic to 'fix' her 1 year old son who got winged in the head by the AK round the insurgents used to assassinate her husband. No, one year old kids don't survive getting 'winged' by an AK round. He wound up gently holding this poor child's lifeless body for way too long, while trying to console her and explain that our medics could not bring him back. I missed being there by about two minutes. Have thanked God for that mercy ever since. Spookiest moment - clearing one of Saddam's command and control bunkers in Ameriyah. Was very much like a scene out of Half-Life. Big, dark concrete bunker that just looked like it belonged in a 1P shooter. Most vivid memory - locking and loading and doing last minute PCC's before rolling out the entry control point for patrols. I remember the very distinct smells of diesel exhaust, Baghdad dust, FOB + local environment, the heat, the feel of the M4 in my hands, the 'tough' feel of my combat gloves, the weight of the HMMWV door, the taste of stale bottled water, the tone of the radio speaker and the transition from casual Soldier banter to ready reports from the patrol and my crew. The mental transition from relaxed and 'safe' on the FOB, to alert and singularly focused as we roll through the gate, accepting the grinding fatigue that we know is to come. Concur with much of PzSauer's overall comments on US combat experience, leadership and psyche. Love many aspects of the Army, hate others. Best and worst leaders I've ever known were all US Army. Constantly torn between the desire to go 'over' again and the love and opportunity of enjoying my life with my family. Family is winning so far... Good for family and thanks from us. To the original comment on 'terrorists.' Don't care what you call them, when someone is shooting at you you should not feel any particular remorse at shooting back. 100% agree. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) re: pnzrldr I do have to admit I had to press my face against the screen to eyeball your avatar photo to make sure you weren't one of my ex-bosses. You are most certainly not given some of the stuff you just mentioned, but it was still a small world moment. Naturally, she spoke fluent English and wasn't shy about laying blame for her father's death on the Yankee thugs who had invaded her country in the first place (as opposed to the Sunni insurgents who killed her dad just for being a shia). That was good times. It almost felt like Kafka in that we somehow by existing and walking around were to blame for all ills in the middle east, not the men making bombs and leaving them in markets. Also the irrational expectations of aid money or reconstruction projects. Most vivid memory - locking and loading and doing last minute PCC's before rolling out the entry control point for patrols. I remember the very distinct smells of diesel exhaust, Baghdad dust, FOB + local environment, the heat, the feel of the M4 in my hands, the 'tough' feel of my combat gloves, the weight of the HMMWV door, the taste of stale bottled water, the tone of the radio speaker and the transition from casual Soldier banter to ready reports from the patrol and my crew. The mental transition from relaxed and 'safe' on the FOB, to alert and singularly focused as we roll through the gate, accepting the grinding fatigue that we know is to come. For me it was the whirr of whatever passed for AC in the M1151s and later MRAPs plus that. Also the lovely smell of Ghaz's open air sewage. Edited January 30, 2015 by panzersaurkrautwerfer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Well, in retrospect US illegal invasion of Iraq set a chain of events that destabilised a country which was able to function only by tough hand ie. dictator and that girl had all the right to be angry on you guys - tools in the hand of the invasive government. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Working in an emergency room can surely be quite difficult too at times. Most people find it unpleasant to see others suffering. That's actually where I saw most of the (literal) bloody mess. We always knew when a casualty was going to be a difficult one when the medevac helo pilot was coming in low and fast and practically waving us out to the helipad before the helo's wheels were on the ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Well, in retrospect US illegal invasion of Iraq set a chain of events that destabilised a country which was able to function only by tough hand ie. dictator and that girl had all the right to be angry on you guys - tools in the hand of the invasive government. Let's not go there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Well, in retrospect US illegal invasion of IraqIf you wish to derail this thread into something that I am going to have to lock, this is a great way to start. So don't do it. It's an opinion that every soldier who has been in Iraq, and not, is far more aware of than someone who didn't.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnzrldr Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Steve - thanks. Was formulating a retort I will now keep to myself. Appreciated. Sincerely, 'a (fairly sharp edged) tool.' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Active-duty 24 year US Army Armor Lieutenant Colonel. Wow. Thanks for sharing. My father is a retired Lt Col of Royal Canadian Regiment. He retired in the mid '90s so served through different times although he was in AFG in 1989 as part of the UN monitoring of the Soviet troop withdrawal. He has told me a few things and I am certain there is more but you have seen a lot. I thank you for your service to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) My father was in Afghanistan, 1981-85' volunteer. Fought in a few battles, Lost his middle toe from shrapnel and shot in the leg. He also participated in Chechnya so did my uncle I heard horrible stories from them about their service. Makes me feel ashamed that I couldn't go through what they did... Edited January 31, 2015 by VladimirTarasov 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agiel Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) My father was in Afghanistan, 1981-85' volunteer. Fought in a few battles, Lost his middle toe from shrapnel and shot in the leg. He also participated in Chechnya so did my uncle I heard horrible stories from them about their service. Makes me feel ashamed that I couldn't go through what they did... Don't be. I don't think many veterans expect much from those who stay civilians (or if one is from a country that has conscription/national service, has not been in combat) except probably a little bit of deference. Don't give them unnecessary lip over the smallest things, and lend them an open ear *when* they want to talk about their thoughts and experiences. Edited January 31, 2015 by Agiel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Why be ashamed? I would rather feel lucky that i dont have do that. If you think that what he did was right, thank him for it and that you, today, live in a world where you dont have to fight insurgents in Chechnya. But i dont see what you should be ashamed of. Edited January 31, 2015 by agusto 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 My father was in Afghanistan, 1981-85' volunteer. Fought in a few battles, Lost his middle toe from shrapnel and shot in the leg. He also participated in Chechnya so did my uncle I heard horrible stories from them about their service. Makes me feel ashamed that I couldn't go through what they did...I think the real point is nobody should have to go through that. Ever. I don't care what nationality, what time period, civil wars and intensive counter insurgency are not good for the Human soul.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Why be ashamed? I would rather feel lucky that i dont have do that. If you think that what he did was right, thank him for it and that you, today, live in a world where you dont have to fight insurgents in Chechnya. But i dont see what you should be ashamed of. I wish I could have been in his place instead of him having to go through that now he has PTSD, He told me thoroughly about everything as if he was going through it like he was there. I dont think ashamed is the right word for it though. I think the real point is nobody should have to go through that. Ever. I don't care what nationality, what time period, civil wars and intensive counter insurgency are not good for the Human soul. Steve Yeah of course, All soldiers are innocent unless he commits crimes during his duty... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SovietPachyderm Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I think the real point is nobody should have to go through that. Ever. I don't care what nationality, what time period, civil wars and intensive counter insurgency are not good for the Human soul. Steve Agreed. I'm pretty shocked at how little people here in the USA know the Soviet war in Afghanistan even happened. With the amount of people it affected, and the amount of lives pointlessly lost during it, it should be in every Cold War history lesson, especially considering it's involvement with the downfall of the Soviet Union. Hey Vladimir, do you have any other stories from Ossetia? It is very interesting to hear from a Russian perspective, since we obviously don't get to hear your guys' side very much here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) The word you are looking for is probably compassion. You are feeling bad for him because of what happened but at the same time you know you cant do anything to change the past. Edited January 31, 2015 by agusto 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpheart23 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 15 years, U.S. Army Active duty 13B Cannon crewmember, can't seem to convince big Army I'm worthy of my SFC stripes so here i sit a lowly Section Chief. Iraq war veteran 03-04 being my only true combat deployment, been pcs'd around quite a bit, did time as a detailed recruiter, spent a year in Korea, and a couple working at the Warrior Transition battalion on Fort Bliss. I've recently had the pleasure of doing some foreign weapons trainning with an ODA team shooting all types of rifles, pistols, machine guns, really the highlight of at least the last 3 years of service for me . 4 years and some change and I'll probably be hanging it up while i can still get around okay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Agreed. I'm pretty shocked at how little people here in the USA know the Soviet war in Afghanistan even happened. With the amount of people it affected, and the amount of lives pointlessly lost during it, it should be in every Cold War history lesson, especially considering it's involvement with the downfall of the Soviet Union. Hey Vladimir, do you have any other stories from Ossetia? It is very interesting to hear from a Russian perspective, since we obviously don't get to hear your guys' side very much here. That was the only shoot out I had there, Ossetia was a very beautiful place. Out of everything I've been through in army service training was the hardest, Its pretty tough. I have many stories about my service and about my father and uncle even my gramps who was in world war 2. You ask I have no problem writing about it here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Agreed. I'm pretty shocked at how little people here in the USA know the Soviet war in Afghanistan even happened. With the amount of people it affected, and the amount of lives pointlessly lost during it, it should be in every Cold War history lesson, especially considering it's involvement with the downfall of the Soviet Union. I read a paper once discussing the voting habits of the average American. In so many words it came to the conclusion the lack of interest in many affairs or areas was not ignorance as much as the subject area was so remote to most folks as to not merit an especially deep level of concern. So speaking in even wider terms, the Soviet war in Afghanistan is less important. It's an interesting part of the late Cold War, and important to understanding events of several decades past, but the actual conduct of the war is irrelevant, and to the American audience could be summed up as "we supported anti-Soviet resistance, and that helped contribute to making the war an unwinnable mess." If you're playing a game like Combat Mission you likely place a higher emphasis on military matters, and historical events of that nature. However if the Soviet war in Afghanistan had been an amazing Soviet victory based upon the 30th Shock Guards tank division outfighting the Afghan Panzer Legions until Rambo showed up, so long as the war still bankrupted the USSR, and left Afghanistan a mess, which contributed to the even more macro historical downfall of the USSR for other reasons (that might be more interesting or relevant to the person in question), there is not really more that the common dude on the street needs to know about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 If you wish to derail this thread into something that I am going to have to lock, this is a great way to start. So don't do it. It's an opinion that every soldier who has been in Iraq, and not, is far more aware of than someone who didn't.Steve No Steve, I didn't want to derrail the topic although seeing the couple of responses now it could evolve into a flame post. I do stand behind that statement though. Sorry to all you guys who served there and my statement insulted or otherwise stirred negative emotions. That was not my intention. Sincerly. Now let's carry on with the stories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Out of everything I've been through in army service training was the hardest, Its pretty tough.Sounds like it adequately prepared you for what was to come, at least in terms of "toughing through it". I guess that's what they mean when they say "Train hard, fight easy." ("hard" and "easy" being relative terms). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calm Breeze Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Just passed my 7th year of service in the British Army. Did 1 year and 3 months of initial and combat infantryman's training which was.... horrific! Joined the 1st Battalion the Royal Anglian Regiment (Vikings) and was deployed to Afghanistan in late 2009. My company was posted to Musa Qaleh in Helmand province, IED's and small arms were common and a couple of times we encountered some very close IDF from an AGS-17 the Taliban had acquired which was probably the scariest thing I've ever come up against. Handed the AO over to the USMC at the end of tour and we freaked the **** out of them and stole an entire pallet of Gatorade, sorry about that! I deployed to Kenya on exercise in 2011 and nearly got killed by an elephant, this sucked. 2012 saw me return to Helmand Province as an IED detection dog handler and my pooch found the largest IED of the summer campaign. Transferred to become a dog handler in the Royal Army Veterinary Corps and its where I'm at now. Good to see another Viking on the forum, and good luck in your future postings. I am a Viking Veteran, having served 14 years in 1 R Anglian from September 1969 to October 1983. I served in N Ireland, several times including a 2 year tour as Resident Battalion in Londonderry, 70-72, where I had the dubious honour of having 2 separate IRA men try to kill me on the same day. The first incident was as I was walking inside our base, when two high calibre bullets whizzed past me, the first into the grass in front of me near the cook-house, the second hit the wall next to me on the path I was walking on. Later that afternoon I was on duty on the City walls overlooking the Bogside when I was fired on from Free Derry corner by someone with a Thompson sub machine gun, all bullets went high. Those were my WTF moments whilst serving in the British Army. I also served 4 years in West Germany during the Cold War, 2 years in Cyprus, a 6 month Operational tour in Belize, as well as short trips to Norway on Winter Warfare Training as part of our role as cannon fodder for NATO's Northern Flank. I also had a 2 week holiday in Malta playing for the Army(Cyprus) football team on a short 10 day visit, that was extended to 14 days due to the Hercules that was to take us back to Cyprus breaking down on three successive days. Oh and my main job was that of a Mortar Fire Controller(MFC). Edited January 31, 2015 by Calm Breeze 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calm Breeze Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Edit: Although it shows me as a new member, I was a member of this Forum from way back when, certainly before 2006, which was when someone mentioned Eve Online and I asked what that was, the rest is history! I cannot find my original login details, hence the new member. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I read a paper once discussing the voting habits of the average American. In so many words it came to the conclusion the lack of interest in many affairs or areas was not ignorance as much as the subject area was so remote to most folks as to not merit an especially deep level of concern.There is a school of thought that caring is proportional to the "closeness" relative to the individual. The best explanation is how much emotion and trauma someone can feel when their dog is hit by a car and dies compared to a nameless child dying each day in hundreds of thousands of small villages all around the world. The dog associated with the individual is a close companion, it is loved and it loves back. The person sees the dog constantly each day and there is bond that is formed which is almost as primal as it is intellectual. It has a name. This is not true for the nameless child that the person doesn't see, hear, or even have specific knowledge of. The concept of children dying can be an issue cared about, but generally speaking the person is more likely to do something for local animal rescue than a starving child in sub Saharan Africa.The United States is a HUGE country with a HUGE population and HUGE issues to deal with very close to home. It's difficult to convince someone in Kansas that they have to do something about a tribal conflict in the jungles of SE Asia when there's more pressing concerns close to home.Personally, I remember seeing a documentary in the mid 1980s on the Soviet war in Afghanistan. An image, and sound, that has always stayed with me was a convoy that was ambushed in the mountains that was accompanied by Western journalists. The Afghans left the wounded Soviet soldiers lying where they fell and their comrades could hear them screaming for help well into the night but couldn't get to them because they new the wounded were being used as bait. Probably the first time I realized, as a youth, that war sucks.Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Sorry to all you guys who served there and my statement insulted or otherwise stirred negative emotions. That was not my intention. Sincerly. Not to rederail, but simply in passing, it is sort of a simplistic version of events you presented. Iraqis blamed us for things that were in no way part of anything the US had ever done to Iraq. What we did do to restore prosperity even at great cost in human lives and resources was always not enough. If you helped the Shia it was not enough (because we should have built houses for everyone, and assigned a squad per family to serve as their personal servants) and the Sunni just become certain it's part of the American-Shia plot to sell all Sunnis to Iran as slaves. You help the Sunni, and the Sunni are unhappy because you haven't restored the Ba'ath party, shot all the Shia for being insolent, and the Shia think you've actually secretly cloned Saddam and he's now calling the shots. In terms of the absurdity, imagine yourself and all your coworkers (even the ones you really don't like) scooped up, put on a plane, and dropped in some other country. Now your country may (or may have not) done some questionable stuff to the country you're in now that has created some instability. However instability does not pick up a bomb vest and walk into a market because God thinks it is a great idea. It does not scoop kids up on the way home from school, hold them for ransom, collect said ransom and then kill kids because they're the wrong sect anyway. It does not pull people off of a bus, and decide who lives or dies based on a theological dilemma from centuries ago. So now you're sitting there, with your coworkers, and someone is holding you responsible for the inhumanity of man, and for being simply from a country that's contribution to this whole catastrophic mess in terms of causing it, was maybe building about 20 meters of the 100 KM highway to chaos. The US may have opened pandora's box, but it didn't build it, fill it for a few hundred years, and for a long time it valiantly tried to stuff all those evils back into the box, again at the cost of thousands of American lives and billions of dollars (again, the US plan for Iraq was "Saddam is dead, high fives, maybe like 20,000 dudes stay behind to help clean stuff up for a year or two" not seven to eight years depending on your math of suck). Even more the box existed, and was out in the open. Someone was going to open that box, and someone was going to unleash hell on Iraq. It might have been in the eventual "which of Saddam's Sons will rule next?" conflict of 2014. It might have been the hypothetical Iranian invasion of 2016. It could have been when the peace loving Alpha Centurians come to earth in 2021 to bring love and sharing to all men, but they accidentially fly too close to the Golden Mosque on approach and now it's all Allah Akbar because that shows a clear disrespect for Shia so the aliens must be secret Sunni. So again, sitting there with your coworkers, you are responsible for the sins of Iraq's fathers, grandfathers's and great grandfathers. So as you stuggle, as you work, as you bleed, you will be eternally blamed for things you did not do, stuff that happened sometimes before your country even existed, and most damning of all, the people blaming you will simply sit there and contribute their part to the chaos (giving money to insurgents, not calling the police/tipline when they see someone planting a bomb etc etc) all while pointing the finger of blame at you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.