Holien Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 **** SPOLIERS **** So just called end to this scenario as my Oppo really thought it was too imbalanced for the Germans to win against a competent British player... “For the Germans to win they would have to be massively lucky and the Brits to be massively inept.” My Oppo... IMO I think it is fairly well balanced based upon VP scoring and some clever scenario VP design. The Brits have to exit forces or the Germans gain them as destroyed even if they were not by the Germans. This I think can lead to the German player thinking they are doing badly when they are not. Also if the Germans do attack in right spot and hit the choke point then the Brits are stuffed as only a couple of places they can get there forces out, which I guess is why Jon balanced it by allowing Brits 500 points for less than 25% losses. But if the Brits go crazy they lose that 500points and that is 50% of their VPs lost!! How did anyone else get on with it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well, I playtested it and won...as the Germans. Of course, that's just my memory, but there were some great moments in it, so if I didn't win, I should have. I certainly don't think it's unbalanced. What approach did/has your oppo used that has him so flummoxed with this one? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 chasing balance in a scenario is a real will o the wisp. Opponents skill levels are rarely equal in all situations, understanding how to use the terrain to achieve your goals can totally unbalance a situation and is that the scenario's fault or the respective opponents...and then there is the time I completely missed a critical point in a briefing and suffered miserably for it. The thing about being the attacker is it helps if you attack.... in my defense the scenario was labelled in correctly. In terms of design JonS is a hard core opponent of any kind of scripting. He creates a battle and leaves the fighting of it to the player. I did notice he suggests 1st time play through against the AI the player may want to be the British. Not sure what to take from that. ken did you play test vs AI or HTH? I'd suggest flipping sides, you take the Brits and see if you can do better. My personal impression is it looks like an interesting match up. The Germans definitely have a superior infantry force and to me that means a higher likelihood of spotting first if the other side has fewer eyes on foot. However the Brits get to decide their avenue of advance and have some hefty firepower, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Playtested HTH. Many great memories from that one. A late-phase beta build, so pretty close to public release. I need to replay this one...it's been years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Thanks H … I seem to be saying that a lot recently This was an interesting scenario to make. It’s one of the very few strictly historical scenarios I’ve made. I recall that I wanted to ‘do’ a “defence of the gun position” kind of battle – which were so common in the desert – but it turns out that this was the only case in NWE where German armour directly attacked British artillery. Or the only one I could find, anyway. Steve's right in that generally I try to set a problem, then leave it up to the players to figure out how to solve. As you discovered this scenario has quite an unusual core concept ("run away!"), and if they player(s) don’t ‘get’ that, then it’s probably to be expected that they’ll flounder tactically, and dislike the scen because of it. Which is a good reminder to me that I still need to work on clarity and simplicity in the briefing; strip out any extraneous rubbish, and focus on really telling the players what they need to know to fight effectively and win. Thanks. Jon 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I played this scenario about a month or so ago. A beautiful looking map, and a really interesting battle to fight. I played against the A.I. Firstly as the Germans, and managed a "Major Victory" without losing any of my tanks, and not too many infantry. That was a pleasant surprise. As the British I only got a "Draw". I used a hell of a lot of smoke to cover my withdrawal and kept my fingers crossed that the A.I. would advance fairly slowly. I found the biggest problem to be just keeping my vehicles moving along those tight little lanes. it will probably be quite some time before I play again. That gives me time to work on my traffic management skills. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 What approach did/has your oppo used that has him so flummoxed with this one? Well I think he was too cautious and he split his force into three attacks. One major attack on the right flank was backed up by 5 Panthers and then a smaller attack near woods (2 Panthers) and then a smaller attack up road on left with 3 Panthers (but one became bogged in dry stream, so in effect only two Panthers). His attacks did not progress fast and I had time to get all my TD's on board and then I started attacking him in flanks which he failed to secure with any Observation. So he lost a Panther on the left road attack which wasthe one place I did not want him to break through. I managed to hit the Middle wood attack Panther in side but he drove it away and hence gave that up... The Right wing I got a lucky hit with a Sherman on gun of Panther so that knocked out one and I had a long range TD hit on another from the Road way as you get some long range LOS from that position, he put it down to a Piat so he had not clocked I could hit him from other side of map. When he did pick up speed he lost two Panthers in one turn and that broke him. He had advanced the Panthers at speed without support past my MLR and into my second positions. I nailed one with a Piat team (only team in that line) so he was unlucky to drive past me side on. I had also placed two Shermans on far left (my left, his right) behind hedge and in such a position that if he drove staright forward I would get side shot. He did and at close range he was done for. I just don't think he was aggressive enough early on and using his inf in a co-ordinated manner. His view interestingly was "And you still have over 170 infantry left. So, with casualties, as many as the total German infantry force, with something like 20 Piat teams." But what that statement does not understand is that the Brits are spread thin and the Germans have at the points they attack the advantage unless the Brits can re-act to those points. So up on his right flank I had around 20 men in small clumps shooting and scooting to try and delay him. I guess they appeared as if I had more... I guess the other key trick was that I kept 1 Sexton back in each section to throw HE at him and that really mucked up his attack, especially as I had LOS side on to his right flank attack, that slowed him down and broke his attack up giving me more time. BTW when we CF'd it was a draw. 709pts Brits to German 665. So he was doing well as 23 mins left on clock and I was still trying to get my stuff off map. I had in effect got 209 points for nailing 5 Panthers and 76 of his men. (His last Panther was nailed on his left flank as I had sent TD's to drive below him and disrupt any move up the road as if he had got to top he would see all my fleeing Trucks... So I think he as Germans seeing he had lost 5 Panthers and having 1 bogged and 1 without a gun threw towel in as he thought he could not achieve his objectives (most probably right if it had run another 23 mins...) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 chasing balance in a scenario is a real will o the wisp. Opponents skill levels are rarely equal in all situations, understanding how to use the terrain to achieve your goals can totally unbalance a situation and is that the scenario's fault or the respective opponents...and then there is the time I completely missed a critical point in a briefing and suffered miserably for it. The thing about being the attacker is it helps if you attack.... in my defense the scenario was labelled in correctly. Yep agree and it all depends on what each person does. Just wanted to give Jon some feed back and kick off a bit of discussion. My New Years resolution to try and comment on scenarios played so Designers get an insight and know that there scenarios are being played. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 As the British I only got a "Draw". I used a hell of a lot of smoke to cover my withdrawal and kept my fingers crossed that the A.I. would advance fairly slowly. I found the biggest problem to be just keeping my vehicles moving along those tight little lanes. it will probably be quite some time before I play again. That gives me time to work on my traffic management skills. A bit of a tip re exiting... I would not use the lane. In the game I did use it just for all my trucks and that kept them out of the way and moving forwards. Mind you if one had blown via the HE I would have been done for. The quickest way to exit is to use the sextons to break down walls and use fast move through the fields. This worked out far quicker and once you got lines formed worked fairly smoothly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Thanks H … I seem to be saying that a lot recently No worries you are just on winning end of my New Years resolution... BTW I think you hid well the conditions for the Germans, as if you make it too obvious that Brits are leaving they could plot Arty to hit road junctions / choke points and that would be game over for Brits. Not sure how you could explain that Germans are doing well even if they are not killing things, I don't think there is a way around that.... Map as ever very good and some good LOS opportunities that I used to really slow German advance down... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'd suggest flipping sides, you take the Brits and see if you can do better. I did suggest but my oppo said "Replaying it can’t work as it would be too easy to target accurately with the mortars and knowing the disarray of the Brits, a quick start would get better results. Also the Brits could even better determine where the German attack would come. This one favours a blind play, for unpredictability but needs some serious rebalancing IMO." Which actually I agree with everything bar rebalance. As Germans knowing what I know I would just set up a slow stonk on the choke points and the Brits would not be able to exit easily. Of course as a Gentleman I could forgo that and try and use in a different manner. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Sounds like his personal morale was broken when he lost his Panthers. They're not as uber as a lot of folks think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 @ Holien ... Sound advice. It didn't occur to me to blast holes for my vehicles to move through using the Sexton's ammo. Perhaps I was too busy laying down smoke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 @ Holien ... Sound advice. It didn't occur to me to blast holes for my vehicles to move through using the Sexton's ammo. Perhaps I was too busy laying down smoke. No need to blast, sexton tracks slow move will destroy walls! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Noted... even sounder advice. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Jon, Some final notes from my oppo... "I actually enjoyed the scenario but from my perspective, I had hit a wall of steel and seemed to be going nowhere fast – hence the CF. If I had had a notion that you were trying to exit, I would have carried on because I would have known that I was tying your stuff down. From the German players perspective, you have to have some idea of what progress, or otherwise, that you are making and, as far as I could see I was making none. At that point IMO a prudent commander would call off an attack that seemed to be going nowhere. The British player, on the other hand, can judge exactly how he is doing, based on the exits, losses and kills.... .... A small addition to the German briefing could, I think, make all the difference. Something like ‘from what little you can see, it appears that the British are trying to extricate themselves from this area. You need to catch them before they can achieve this’" I think he sums it well as to why a slight tweak will give the German player a better idea without perhaps giving too much away? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ng cavscout Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 Has anyone finished this scenario in the 2 player format? I am playing with @Boo Radley and we are at 6 minutes past the scenario end. All CW forces besides an immobilized and crewless half track are off the board and the scenario isn't ending. Just exchanging turns where the CW player has nothing to do but hit end turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37mm Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 5 hours ago, ng cavscout said: Has anyone finished this scenario in the 2 player format? I am playing with @Boo Radley and we are at 6 minutes past the scenario end. All CW forces besides an immobilized and crewless half track are off the board and the scenario isn't ending. Just exchanging turns where the CW player has nothing to do but hit end turn. It's probably a scenario with a variable end time... that can last up to +15 minutes IIRC. Either that or BFC decided to put a code in their game just to detect & then, deservedly, torture you & Boo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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