Has the way Artillery Ammunition is counted changed in Black Sea?

[Little_Black_Devil]

Hey Guys!!

 

I've got a quick question about Artillery ammunition counts. I have searched and gone through the advance copy of the manual but couldn't find the answer to this - so my apoologies if this has already been covered elsewhere.

 

In all previous Combat Mission titles - indirect fire assets such as an off board mortar or howitzer would be depicted as having a set ammunition count showing the different types of ammunition available. However, using one type of ammunition was always to the detrmient of the other.

 

So for instance, if I had a mortar that had 160 HE rounds and 24 Smoke Rounds and if I fired all of my HE rounds in an opening salvo at the start of the scenario - that Gun would then show as "empty" for the remainder of the scenario despite the fact it should still have 24 smoke rounds which hadn't been used yet.

 

Now, being an old Gunner myself, I know full well High Explosive and Smoke projectiles are not interchangeable so it's always sort of mystified me as to how using all of my HE rounds somehow meant all of my smoke rounds were inherently used up too, even though they were never fired. Likewise, I could never figure out what this might be abstracting if it wasn't just a game limitation.  

 

In any event - what I'm wondering is with the introduction of precision munitions in Black Sea, which are going to be inaddition to the HE and smoke rounds they may be stocked with, is whether artillery ammunition is counted/used the same way as seen in previous CM Titles ~or~ whether all rounds are now individually tracked?

 

Meaning - I have 50 HE Rounds, 10 Smoke Rounds and 5 Precision Rounds - If I use all 50 of my HE rounds, will my guns still show as empty ~or~ will they now correctly show that I have only used up my 50 HE rounds and that I still have my 10 Smoke Rounds and 5 Precision Rounds left to use?

 

Thanks!!

[Apocal]

Hey Guys!!

 

I've got a quick question about Artillery ammunition counts. I have searched and gone through the advance copy of the manual but couldn't find the answer to this - so my apoologies if this has already been covered elsewhere.

 

In all previous Combat Mission titles - indirect fire assets such as an off board mortar or howitzer would be depicted as having a set ammunition count showing the different types of ammunition available. However, using one type of ammunition was always to the detrmient of the other.

 

So for instance, if I had a mortar that had 160 HE rounds and 24 Smoke Rounds and if I fired all of my HE rounds in an opening salvo at the start of the scenario - that Gun would then show as "empty" for the remainder of the scenario despite the fact it should still have 24 smoke rounds which hadn't been used yet.

 

Now, being an old Gunner myself, I know full well High Explosive and Smoke projectiles are not interchangeable so it's always sort of mystified me as to how using all of my HE rounds somehow meant all of my smoke rounds were inherently used up too, even though they were never fired. Likewise, I could never figure out what this might be abstracting if it wasn't just a game limitation. 

 

I always thought it was an abstraction meant to account for the limited number of powder charges.

[agusto]

AFAIK the game assumes that HE rounds are used for spotting rounds - so no HE, no artillery barrages. If you do it the other way round, i mean use up the smoke rounds first during the opening barrage and then look at the HE count, it will be the same as before the smoke barrage. There is no function like smoke_rounds = he_rounds/total_ammo, he_rounds = 0 => smoke rounds = 0.  I think "However, using one type of ammunition was always to the detrmient of the other." is not unconditionally true. Smoke availability depends on HE availability, but not the other way round.

Edited January 14, 2015 by agusto

[Michael Emrys]

I recall some devious explanation was offered, but I never totally bought it. Still doesn't seem right to me.

 

Michael

[womble]

The explanation offered was that (at least in the WW2 time frame), you were allocated a certain number of shots from your priority fires, and whether those shots were smoke or bang didn't signify.

[Placebo]

The explanation offered was that (at least in the WW2 time frame), you were allocated a certain number of shots from your priority fires, and whether those shots were smoke or bang didn't signify.

I thought this was the case too, if HE=160 and smoke=24 then you actually have 160 shots available and upto 24 can be smoke. Or up to 160 can be HE.

[Lille Fiskerby]

Take the M109A7 Paladin by examble : 

you have 117 HE + 12 Excalibur + 12 WP at start,

If you fire all 12 Excalibur you have 105 HE + 12 WP

if you then fire 12 WP you have 93 HE left.

[Little_Black_Devil]

Thanks for the input Guys,

 

I guess it remains to be seen what the final / official answer is. Naturally, I for one am hoping that the use of one projectile type won't be to the determiment of any of the others as I just can't see the logic in that. As a former Artilleryman, every time I ever put an HE round down range - a corresponding smoke round in our ammo hooch didn't just miraculously disapear for reasons unknown as well.

 

If the intent is to abstract other units drawing upon indirect fire assets, I suppose I can wrap my head around that - but one would think ammunition availability should be variable if that's the case and not a hard wired formula where you're more or less making a decision to use one type or ammunition or the other but not really both. (Yes I realize under the existing system if you fire your smoke first you will still have whats left of your HE to then fire - but this also assumes I have need for my smoke before I need my HE). 

 

However, even if the count for precision munitions are separated from the slurry of HE/Smoke rounds then that would still be a step up, though still not ideal.

 

If however, they're part of the combined count then one will certainly have to agonize over what projectiles to call upon and in what order so as not to inadvertently deplete their other projectile types. Naturally, this would further be complicated by the rough rates of fire available as mechanisms to control just how much ammunition is used.

 

Meaning, if I have those 160 HE rounds, 24 Smoke Rounds and say 8 Precision rounds - and I need to call down HE first, then at what point will a short mission, medium mission or a long mission start start nipping into my supply of smoke or Precision rounds? My guess is trial and error will tell which I guess is the crux of my frustration with the existing combined ammunition count system as real fire missions don't work that way.

 

Anyhow, I've eagerly gobbled up every CM title since the begining and my copy of Black Sea was long since pre-ordered so this isn't pivotal for me by any stretch of the imagination. I saw something in one of ChrisND's videos that just prompted the question is all.

 

Thanks again for the input!!