sburke Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Well I am sorry, I don't respect your president he is a liar by his own admission and the instigator of all the violence that has led to 5000 dead. Putin however is not Russia anymore than Bush is America. We had many many protests about the US invasion of Iraq. It is time the Russian people distanced themselves from Putin's policies. Russia has absolutely no right to inject men and weapons into Ukraine. You don't like the current government, then deal with that on a political state to state basis, not via a proxy war. The separatists do not represent the people of Donbass, the failure of novorussiya proved that so much that even Putin has dropped the term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015   Russia and Ukraine are brothers  The Ukraine appears to disagree with that sentiment.  2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Well I am sorry, I don't respect your president he is a liar by his own admission and the instigator of all the violence that has led to 5000 dead. Putin however is not Russia anymore than Bush is America. We had many many protests about the US invasion of Iraq. It is time the Russian people distanced themselves from Putin's policies. Russia has absolutely no right to inject men and weapons into Ukraine. You don't like the current government, then deal with that on a political state to state basis, not via a proxy war. The separatists do not represent the people of Donbass, the failure of novorussiya proved that so much that even Putin has dropped the term. Putin has dropped the term because if he uses the word Novorossiya America and EU will look down on him even more then they are now, Putin has helped Russia compared to 90s our situation is like we are already where we want to be, But sanctioning Russia because it supports Novorossiya is not fair, Why not sanction NATO over Kosovo or over Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan? Many innocent lives have been lost their too. But im sure America is the dream of the world that is why it can police, And destroy countries without anyone saying a word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The Ukraine appears to disagree with that sentiment.  The Ukraine? OR YOUR POLITICIANS? Ukraine is Russian as Russia is Ukrainian we are all brothers and this EU should not separate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yeah I hate when people complain about invasions too. Â Sometimes you've just gotta invade now and then to make sure you know how, ya know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Russia was sitting at the UN conference one day, and and was passed a letter by a friend under his desk.  He unfolded it and it read "do you like me? circle  y/n".  Ukraine batted its eyes.  "y" replied Russia after repeatedly circling the chosen letter.  Another was sent in return.  "then invade me"  "in time my love in time"  Russia replied sagely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Then why are there two continues, and why did the Russian supported government shoot all those Ukrainians in Kiev? Â Which gets to the heart of the issue I feel, for the Russians, the Ukraine is the long lost family member, missing from great Empire. Â For Ukrainians, it would appear the opinion is quite the opposite, for their desire for independence long predates the EU, and will likely continue so long as Russians illegally occupy portions of it. Â Â Â Â Yeah I hate when people complain about invasions too. Â I know! Â It's just brother come to visit. Â Put boots up on Ukraine. Â Pay no mind. Â Why you hang with that EU person? Â Is bad man, bad man. Â Say, brother sorry he starve you and touch you in no-no places. Â Why not you move back in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Yeah I hate when people complain about invasions too. Â Sometimes you've just gotta invade now and then to make sure you know how, ya know? No man that is sick you don't invade a country unless it has invaded you or is causing harm to you, And while doing that it doesnt mean you can go kill thousands up to millions of people. Just take care of the threat and your done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015   No man that is sick you don't invade a country unless it has invaded you or is causing harm to you  Huh.  Perhaps you should share this wisdom with your government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Huh. Â Perhaps you should share this wisdom with your government? Ok I'll be sure to email my wisdom to Obama while at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited)   Ok I'll be sure to email my wisdom to Obama while at it  No, see, I'm all about blood for oil and world conquest.  I salivate at the chance to show Ecuador who is it's daddy.  You're the one from Russia claiming there's no invasion despite by your own admission Russian soldiers are in the Ukraine.  My objection isn't military adventurism, it's lying about it and hypocrisy.  Which are some things Russia is certainly pretty good at.  Edited January 23, 2015 by panzersaurkrautwerfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) No, see, I'm all about blood for oil and world conquest.  I salivate at the chance to show Ecuador who is it's daddy.  You're the one from Russia claiming there's no invasion despite by your own admission Russian soldiers in the Ukraine.  My objection isn't military adventurism, it's lying about it and hypocrisy.  Which is something Russia is certainly pretty good at.   Are you serious im hoping your joking because blood for oil is sick and not humane saying this and trying to argue against Russia being in Ukraine makes no sense what so ever you don't like it because their lying? what the heck? Yes special forces are there providing training, Most of them give tactics. I mean if Russia really was there wouldn't Ukrainian offensive be stopped already, I can give you a estimate on how a operation in eastern Ukraine would look like if you would like, I have seen strategic offenses made by officers and have a really good idea on how our army works. Edited January 23, 2015 by VladimirTarasov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Idk man whats Blood trading for on the stock market nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Idk man whats Blood trading for on the stock market nowadays? I have no clue if you guys are just messing around or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015   Are you serious im hoping your joking because blood for oil is sick and not humane saying this and trying to argue against Russia being in Ukraine makes no sense what so ever you don't like it because their lying? what the heck? Yes special forces are there providing training, Most of them give tactics. I mean if Russia really was there wouldn't Ukrainian offensive be stopped already, I can give you a estimate on how a operation in eastern Ukraine would look like if you would like, I have seen strategic offenses made by generals and have a really good idea on how our army works  There's Russian troops where your government says there are zero Russian troops, with ethnic Russians driving Russian military hardware, in a war against Ukrainian nationals.  There was disorder, but there wasn't war in the Ukraine until your country brought it.  If Russia was serious about peace, it wouldn't have sent in Russian terrorists, it wouldn't have sent in tanks, it wouldn't have killed a few hundred Dutch people in the wrong plane at the wrong time.  If you think that's the way to treat a brother, I feel honest fear for your siblings.    Idk man whats Blood trading for on the stock market nowadays?  Brother let me tell you, with how low oil has gotten the exchange rate actually demands a lot more blood per drum.  Like a lot.  I'm seriously running out of improvised third world children at this point. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Â Â I have no clue if you guys are just messing around or something else. Â What we are talking about is just as serious, realistic, and honest as Russian intentions of peace and freedom in the Ukraine. Â 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 There's Russian troops where your government says there are zero Russian troops, with ethnic Russians driving Russian military hardware, in a war against Ukrainian nationals. Â There was disorder, but there wasn't war in the Ukraine until your country brought it. Â If Russia was serious about peace, it wouldn't have sent in Russian terrorists, it wouldn't have sent in tanks, it wouldn't have killed a few hundred Dutch people in the wrong plane at the wrong time. Â If you think that's the way to treat a brother, I feel honest fear for your siblings. Â Â Brother let me tell you, with how low oil has gotten the exchange rate actually demands a lot more blood per drum. Â Like a lot. Â I'm seriously running out of improvised third world children at this point. Ok you guys are messing with me lol good one actually got me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackAlpha Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Â My objection isn't military adventurism, it's lying about it and hypocrisy. Â Which are some things Russia is certainly pretty good at. Â Â Don't take it so serious. It's all part of information warfare. It's just the same as when Kiev says they never bombed any urban areas. You can get worked up over it, but then remember that lying is simply part of the game. Russia isn't the first one to lie during war and won't be the last. Everybody does it. Such is war. Edited January 23, 2015 by BlackAlpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Â Â Don't take it so serious. It's all part of information warfare. It's just the same as when Kiev says they never bombed any urban areas. You can get worked up over it, but then remember that lying is simply part of the game. Russia isn't the first one to lie during war and won't be the last. Everybody does it. Such is war. Â The difference for me is a matter of fuel and fire. Â The Ukraine lies about what its setting on fire to continue existing as a country. Â This does not disturb me too deeply because it's a small lie about the nature of a war it is conducting. Â Such things happen. Â What Russia is lying about is that it is at war, and it is without reasonable dispute, the cause for the current war and troubles. Â If Russia packed up its toys, and canceled leave and passes for Russian soldiers in Ukraine, the war would be over and life would go on. Â But instead it insists on trying to carve off parts of a sovereign country through fake terrorists that it has armed, all in the interest of forcing a political situation the Ukraine rejected wholeheartedly while lying about it even existing. Â And lying that there is a war, is far less excusable than the ever so slight whitewashing (to be fair, given the crimes of Russian supported terrorists, Ukraine could tell the truth and still come out of this lily-white). Â 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razgovory Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Steve, I hoped to get an answer from a native american on why US goverment keeps so many citizens in prisons? I am just puzzled with this fact. Is it how true democracy functions? You ignored this question so you don't know the answer (it's ok you may not know) or US goverment will prosecute you if you tell me the truth?  What you are discussing is very much the product of democracy. The reason why so many Amerircans are in jail is because people demanded "tough on crime" measures be taken in the 1980's and 1990's. Politicians who were "tough on crime", won elections, Politicians who were not lost elections. One of the downsides of a Democracy is that voters sometimes make poor choices. What the Snowden revelations revealed was that the United States spies on civilians of foreign countries. Most Americans don't care about that or approve of it. The US doeds spy on some Americans, but are heavily restricted on what it can do and what it can collect. A lot of Americans don't care or approve of this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackAlpha Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) But instead it insists on trying to carve off parts of a sovereign country through fake terrorists that it has armed, all in the interest of forcing a political situation the Ukraine rejected wholeheartedly while lying about it even existing. Â Â I'm not saying I support what Russia is doing, but that's another thing that everybody does these days (in one way or another). So, I'm not really surprised. Edited January 23, 2015 by BlackAlpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikalugin Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Well I am sorry, I don't respect your president he is a liar by his own admission and the instigator of all the violence that has led to 5000 dead. Putin however is not Russia anymore than Bush is America. We had many many protests about the US invasion of Iraq. It is time the Russian people distanced themselves from Putin's policies. Russia has absolutely no right to inject men and weapons into Ukraine. You don't like the current government, then deal with that on a political state to state basis, not via a proxy war. The separatists do not represent the people of Donbass, the failure of novorussiya proved that so much that even Putin has dropped the term. The room for diplomacy is open, it is just that the terms are mutually non acceptable and either side is really interested in upholding Minsk agreements. Edited January 23, 2015 by ikalugin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The room for diplomacy is open, it is just that the terms are mutually non acceptable and either side is really interested in upholding Minsk agreements.Correct. Russia wants a chunk of Ukraine cut off from Ukraine in addition to the other bit (Crimea) it took by direct military force. Ukraine (for some crazy reason) doesn't agree to those terms.And with that I'm going to lock this thread up. Here's a warning for a would be third attempt at restarting this debate. I'm not going to put up with people trying to redefine reality. No more than we allow people to "debate" if the Holocaust happened, 9/11 was conducted by the CIA, the Apollo landings were done in a soundstage and not the moon, that Elvis is still alive, English cuisine is actually cuisine (I lived there, I have English inlaws... I know the truth!), etc. There are "tin hat" forums to discuss these topics, and this is not a "tin hat" forum.To put it more bluntly, if someone wants to debate that Russia is deliberately fueling the war in Ukraine they will be asked to cease that line of argument or I will ban them. While there is some room for debate about the details, the fact is that Russia is responsible for the war in Ukraine by any reasonable standard. Disputing that gets us into the same territory of the last two threads... nowhere good.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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