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Strategic and tactical realities in CMBS

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If Obama supports rebels in Syria openly with US ATGMs and other training

 

It's a matter of progression however.  The Ukraine went from "Yanukovych out!" to Russian special forces carving off part of their country overnight.  Syria had plenty of time to bomb and torture civilians before even fairly modest non-lethal aid showed up, and even then the lethal stuff has been directed to the Kurds and FSA fighting ISIS at this point (and I eagerly await the photo of a TOW missile that keeps making the rounds showing it's a USMC missile blah blah blah NSN is not a serial number).

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It's a matter of progression however.  The Ukraine went from "Yanukovych out!" to Russian special forces carving off part of their country overnight.  Syria had plenty of time to bomb and torture civilians before even fairly modest non-lethal aid showed up, and even then the lethal stuff has been directed to the Kurds and FSA fighting ISIS at this point (and I eagerly await the photo of a TOW missile that keeps making the rounds showing it's a USMC missile blah blah blah NSN is not a serial number).

So if it's not a TOW missile what is it? And saying that special forces did all that in Ukraine is not logical at all I do not want to offend you but it seems you guys forget why all this happened in the first place (BECAUSE OF THE RIOTS) not trying to shout that out btw just highlighting. There is footage of a rioter using a sniper rifle and guns, Even throwing molotovs. But when the government starts to defend themselves "Oh my god they are killing their own" how about the countless crimes police in America have committed against their own people? And Syrian civil war has been fueled by America and its allies, Saudi Arabia sends most of those terrorists over there where as the American government trains and supplies them. But I don't think this argument will get us anywhere we both believe in 2 opposite things.

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So if it's not a TOW missile what is it? And saying that special forces did all that in Ukraine is not logical at all I do not want to offend you but it seems you guys forget why all this happened in the first place (BECAUSE OF THE RIOTS) not trying to shout that out btw just highlighting. There is footage of a rioter using a sniper rifle and guns, Even throwing molotovs. But when the government starts to defend themselves "Oh my god they are killing their own" how about the countless crimes police in America have committed against their own people? And Syrian civil war has been fueled by America and its allies, Saudi Arabia sends most of those terrorists over there where as the American government trains and supplies them. But I don't think this argument will get us anywhere we both believe in 2 opposite things.

It is a TOW missile.  However it's from a batch that could have gone anywhere from Saudi Arabia, to Turkey, to Italy and beyond.  It's no more a sign of US involvement than finding an RPG-7 is a sign of Russian infiltration.

 

In terms of applying lethal force the onus is on the government to control the violence.  The police in Ferguson, the security apparatus of the Ukraine are all examples of doing it wrong, responding with violence simply starts an action-reaction interaction in which violence response to increasing violence.  To put it in perspective across the United States of America in 2013 had a net total of 320 police killings.  In January 2014-March 2014 the Ukrainian security forces killed 100 people alone through largely gunshot wounds, in just Kiev.

 

Given the difference in population, short "killing" window there's simply not comparing the two.  Virtually none of the 100+ protestors shot down by the Ukrainian government realistically had to die, while on occasion the US police kills low single digit numbers of people who did not need to be shot.

 

There's simply no comparing a "bad" shooting of one teenager to the dozens of people shot down in the streets of Kiev to ensure Putin's favorite puppet could still squander his country's resources.  

 

In terms of Syria, I'm sorry where are the Syrian government's tanks and attack helicopters coming from?    If you're going to talk about fueling a civil war, Russia was pouring arms in well before the west was offended enough to send what little it has sent.  

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I get what you are trying to say but there is no tanks coming from Russia you can trust me on that, I have a example for you.  If Obama supports rebels in Syria openly with US ATGMs and other training, But everyone says it is alright when they do it. But when Russia does it Russia the "big bad bear" and "putler" is bad man. So of course Putin will try to hide it, Not much people will be fond of it in the west because every media source that is in America shows Russia bad in anything it does. There is more to it then just Ukraine it goes back to the 1920s when the USSR came along, And America decided it wanted to get rid of it.

So where is the all the armor coming from then?  I don't believe T-72 tanks and other armored vehicles are being purchased from the local Donetsk hardware store.  Nor do I believe that all this stuff was captured from the Ukraine military.  Nor do I believe all this stuff is from 'hidden compounds' filled with mothball equipment from the Donbass area, particularly since such equipment is more current and newer equipment.  So if the tanks are not coming from Russia, pray tell where they are coming from?

 

As to the comment about Syria, the US has told the world that they are providing certain weapons to certain factions in Syria.  Russian has made no such admission of any kind and would have all of us theorize that tanks are being hammered together from pots and pans from old starving pro russian grandmothers in the Donbass area.  In case it is not clear, that last statement was sarcasm on my part. 

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It is a TOW missile.  However it's from a batch that could have gone anywhere from Saudi Arabia, to Turkey, to Italy and beyond.  It's no more a sign of US involvement than finding an RPG-7 is a sign of Russian infiltration.

 

In terms of applying lethal force the onus is on the government to control the violence.  The police in Ferguson, the security apparatus of the Ukraine are all examples of doing it wrong, responding with violence simply starts an action-reaction interaction in which violence response to increasing violence.  To put it in perspective across the United States of America in 2013 had a net total of 320 police killings.  In January 2014-March 2014 the Ukrainian security forces killed 100 people alone through largely gunshot wounds, in just Kiev.

 

Given the difference in population, short "killing" window there's simply not comparing the two.  Virtually none of the 100+ protestors shot down by the Ukrainian government realistically had to die, while on occasion the US police kills low single digit numbers of people who did not need to be shot.

 

There's simply no comparing a "bad" shooting of one teenager to the dozens of people shot down in the streets of Kiev to ensure Putin's favorite puppet could still squander his country's resources.  

 

In terms of Syria, I'm sorry where are the Syrian government's tanks and attack helicopters coming from?    If you're going to talk about fueling a civil war, Russia was pouring arms in well before the west was offended enough to send what little it has sent.  

There is a huge difference between the RPG-7 being in the hand of rebels and a TOW-2 missile being in the hand of rebels. RPG-7 has been exported to many countries alike where as the TOW-2 has not. Russia is supplying a legit government unlike the U.S. so I do not get what makes you think supplying some Al-Nusra and Al-qaeda related groups are you guys joking or serious?

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Also I would like to say unless one of you have been to Ukraine and seen what happened you will not convince me 1% where as I have been there for 2 weeks, Volunteer helping the government rebuild certain things and help spread out food and water. 

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I can also get a link showing a report of NATO weapons in hands of Ukrainian army, Also showing that America and EU has fueled the riots in Ukraine  :) will that make you believe?

 

UA Army using Nato weapons > USA & EU gave weapons to the rioters to fuel the conflict. That sounds like Fox News/RT logic.

 

By the way

Wouldn't it make more sense to send AKs? Same ammo cartridge as regular troops; weaker/no claims could be made to accuse them of it; it would also be cheaper, I suppose. A little obvious isn't it?

Also I highly doubt the UA would store them at the new terminal. With undusty ammo and dusty guns I have to add, also a lack of serial numbers etc, if you have better sources that aren't fabricated please share them with us   :)

Edited by Kraft

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Also I would like to say unless one of you have been to Ukraine and seen what happened you will not convince me 1% where as I have been there for 2 weeks, Volunteer helping the government rebuild certain things and help spread out food and water. 

 

Well then.  Someone apparently has been on vacation.  

 

re: NATO weapons for Ukraine

 

It really doesn't make sense to send them M4s.  We've got a small mountain of Soviet/Russian stuff that we could send and no one would be the wiser.  That said the Russian government did capture a large pile of Bushmaster AR-15s the Georgians had purchased.  Wonder where they all went.

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It really doesn't make sense to send them M4s.  We've got a small mountain of Soviet/Russian stuff that we could send and no one would be the wiser.  That said the Russian government did capture a large pile of Bushmaster AR-15s the Georgians had purchased.  Wonder where they all went.

 

I agree with your first point. If the Western governments were to send clandestine weapon shipments to UA (infantry small arms would be on the very bottom of that list)... Yet it would not surprise me at all if some Ukrainian forces were to procure a few M4 clones and other small arms through their our sources... I am not at all convinced that there is any conspiracy here; I just don't think that this particular story is all that significant regardless of where those weapons had come from...

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He would very bummed if one of those went off.  Although I bet the story he told when he got out of the hospital would bear no resemblance to reality

 

 

So there I is.  Surrounded by HATO SPECFOR Delta SAS Rangers.  I has only knife, and my bear comrade sasha.  Sasha good comrade.  Drinks with the boys.  Mighty fine bear, but thens out of nowhere come fine foxy bear lady!  Sasha run off and I alones.....

 

 

 

Yet it would not surprise me at all if some Ukrainian forces were to procure a few M4 clones and other small arms through their our sources.

 

But why?  It's like flying across the ocean to buy a Ford from the other end of the Atlantic, AR-15s aren't magic doom cannons, and you're just making your supply situation worse by not buying Ukrainian as it were.  .  

Edited by panzersaurkrautwerfer

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Well then.  Someone apparently has been on vacation.  

 

re: NATO weapons for Ukraine

 

It really doesn't make sense to send them M4s.  We've got a small mountain of Soviet/Russian stuff that we could send and no one would be the wiser.  That said the Russian government did capture a large pile of Bushmaster AR-15s the Georgians had purchased.  Wonder where they all went.

Usually special forces get those weapons, But saying that Russia would send over ARs for this type of thing is really stupid. They also captured a few other NATO weaponry why not also put those? But since you guys been there and even in frontline situation with the rebels im sure you know BTW I really do hope no CIA is reading this or I'm screwed :)

Edited by VladimirTarasov

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BTW I really do hope no CIA is reading this or I'm screwed :)

 

Nahh you will be fine, it is always good to have first hand accounts from some one unbiased and knows what is really going on.

 

We can after all trust you.

 

The WWW has made the whole world smaller and the fact we can trade banter on such things must be good?

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But why?  It's like flying across the ocean to buy a Ford from the other end of the Atlantic, AR-15s aren't magic doom cannons, and you're just making your supply situation worse by not buying Ukrainian as it were.  .  

 

Oh I don't know, perhaps they prefer M4s and M40s to AKs and SVDs? It makes no sense (nor any difference) on a strategic scale, but might be favored by individual soldiers (especially if there were "volunteers" willing to supply them)... my point is that it makes absolutely no difference (in a grand scheme of things) as to who brought those particular weapons to the airport. Now, if there was evidence of Javelins/Spikes/Stingers and such being used by UA forces in any significant numbers - that would be a whole different case; but that's not what we are seeing here.

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UA Army using Nato weapons > USA & EU gave weapons to the rioters to fuel the conflict. That sounds like Fox News/RT logic.

 

By the way

Wouldn't it make more sense to send AKs? Same ammo cartridge as regular troops; weaker/no claims could be made to accuse them of it; it would also be cheaper, I suppose. A little obvious isn't it?

Also I highly doubt the UA would store them at the new terminal. With undusty ammo and dusty guns I have to add, also a lack of serial numbers etc, if you have better sources that aren't fabricated please share them with us   :)

 

I didnt say they gave them weapons they just fueled the riots

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Nahh you will be fine, it is always good to have first hand accounts from some one unbiased and knows what is really going on.

 

We can after all trust you.

 

The WWW has made the whole world smaller and the fact we can trade banter on such things must be good?

honestly I have no clue if sarcasm was used :) but I'll take your word and assume it wasn't

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I think shooting protesters did more to fuel the riots than the big ol' thumbs up and good luck the west gave.

You know what I think it is best if we just stop arguing it would be healthy for all of us I think, Because this argument will lead us no where you will not change your mind nor will I.

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[...] I'm quite sure that things ain't that simple. So naive propaganda, who the hell even believes that?  

 

Too many people, unfortunately. You should value being able to filter crappy information as a true blessing ;)

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I can also get a link showing a report of NATO weapons in hands of Ukrainian army, Also showing that America and EU has fueled the riots in Ukraine :) will that make you believe?

Non sequitur. You said there were no Russian tanks in Ukraine. Whether or not there are any NATO-manufactured weapons also there is besides the point as no one has claimed otherwise.

Edited by Vanir Ausf B

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