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Doug Williams

How about some basic advice for those of us new to modern?

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Don't forget Mk.19 vehicle mounted automatic grenade launchers; in CMSF these were brutal for infantry. You get two of these on a humvee or a marine AAV firing in tandem on infantry in the open or even in a building behind a window and it makes minced meat of them in no time. I think they got a 5 meters kill radius from the point of impact and a 15 m wound radius and they get fired in grapes of 3 or 4 at a time.

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These are the main "hand-held" anti tank weapons that the US uses...with weapons like the Javelin its almost like were cheating isn't it? B)

 

Thanks for the great post. +1 rep. Yep, almost like cheating.  ;)

 

All these modern weapon gizmos got me thinking about the absurdity of spending billions of dollars on this stuff....but that should probably be the subject of another thread, in another forum.

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When approaching infantry transport:

 

Anything that has four wheels is functionally the same as a jeep.  The exceptions to this are the american HMMWVs that fit MK-19s, TOW missiles, or what looks like a big box.

 

   Tangent: MK-19 has already been discussed.  Its murderous against infantry, unarmored vehicles, and some of the APC type targets can be knocked out by it with some luck

                  Treat the TOW version a lot like a 17 pound gun that's somehow merged with a speedy prime mover.  You don't want to place it somewhere it can be shot at at all, but it will reap a terrible toll on tanks if you give it a chance.

                  The Big box is the LRAS3, which is one of the most powerful sensor systems in the US Army.  The upside is it is a great tool for calling for support, or keeping sneaky things away from your flank.  The downside is it is not especially better at either of those than an Abrams, and is knocked out by anything more than small arms fire.  This sensor is also mounted on the Stryker scout vehicle.

 

 

Anything with 6-8 wheels/tracks and a machine gun: Treat like a halftrack.  They're really not that well armored, but are great for getting infantry forward fast.  Semi-exceptions to this:

 

    The BTR/MTLBs with 30 mm guns are great against not-tank type vehicles, and very good at suppressing or killing enemy infantry.  

    The Stryker with MK19 is just good enough to use forward, great at digging out infantry from buildings, or suppressing trenchlines.  

 

IFVs (tracked things with troops, some sort of autocannon, and ATGMs)

 

Imagine if your halftracks, light tanks, and AT vehicles all had a beautiful baby!

 

    Treat them like halftracks until they get to the point where they can deposit troops, once the troops are kicked out, then feel less nervous about using them as the mini-tanks they can be.  In a lot of ways, think of them like the M5 tanks from World War Two, they're great against other light vehicles, they're amazing against infantry, but you do not want it anywhere near something that can be called "anti-tank" or a real tank for that matter. 

 

Re: ATGMs

 

Here's the important caveats to remember when operating ATGMs from any platform (except the Javelin)

1. Bullets are faster than missile. The longer you fire the missile from, the longer it takes to impact, the more time the enemy has to react to missile.  It takes a TOW missile about 30 seconds to reach its max range around 3750 meters, that's enough time for the enemy to pop smoke, or return fire with a tank gun, which could very well kill the launching crew before the missile is even close to the target.  To this end it can be wise to ignore max range shots in favor of letting the enemy close in a bit (or it takes a tank shell 2ish seconds to go to 4 KM, it's flight time is fairly constant, while your missile fired at 2000 meters will only take 15ish seconds, which is a much harder thing to react to than 30 seconds)

 

2. ERA is built to ruin your ATGM.  APS also will wreck your day.  With that said, both systems degrade the more missiles they have to deal with.  To that end firing more missiles is often a good solution, so rather than spreading out your fires, massing 2-3 missiles on one tank will often overwhelm the APS (or deplete it's ammunition), and strip away a lot of the ERA protection.  

 

Also when playing against other players, it's much more likely they'll reverse out of an engagement if one of their tanks gets piled on by a few missiles, vs the fire being more spread out.

 

3. Reloading takes a bit.  This is especially true with vehicles like the Bradley or BMP series that have their launchers external to the vehicle.  When engaging with ATGMs, don't be afraid to mass like I said earlier, but hold a few launchers in reserve to continue to engage while your first salvo is being reloaded.

 

4. Mass your missiles.  If you've got two or even three different flavors of missiles, find their average optimal engagement area, and plan to hit the enemy in that range.  Using the Americans as an example the max effective range on the Javelin is 2500 meters or so.  To that end, holding off on firing off your TOWs until the enemy is 2000-2500 meters out ensures that target area is saturated with missiles, and rather than returning fire effectively, the enemy is evading and trying to leave the kill zone.

 

5. Trees give bad vibes.  Anything that is described as "wire guided" needs to be kept away from trees and similar obstructions to ensure the missile's guidance wire doesn't get snagged and cause the missile to rather dramatically miss the target.

 

Random errata:

 

1. Q. Which American units are spotters for artillery and aviation?

 

    A. All of them. Some are better at it than others, but if it's a team with a radio or digital communications it can call for a fire mission.  Plan accordingly from both ends for that one.

 

2. Borg spotting actually does kind of exist now.  Given the advances in battle tracking, all US, and many higher tech Russian units can share situational awareness to varying degrees.  They may still not be able to engage, but if the scouts up front spot your dudes sneaking along, odds are the rest of the force now has at least a very strong idea where your forces are at vs vaguely there's enemy somewhere up front.  

 

3. Fear the Abrams.  No.  Really.  Fear it.  It is the apex predator in this game.  If the enemy has them, you really need to have a plan on how and where to kill them vs simply having some AT assets on hand.  The APS and ERA ones appear especially dangerous at this point.

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My two cents (and probably worth as much)

 

One standard operating procedure to minimize the javelin threat is to manually pop IR blocking smoke when the first tank is hit and reposition yourself under cover of smoke .. Use overwatch positions so you have a chance to get a spot on the launcher when that happens.. And then use arty or direct fire  from your overwatch force (better) to suppress or destroy them. Also move from overhead cover to overhead cover like tree patches in bounds using fast mouvement orders to cross open terrain. Javelin will use the direct fire mode if the target has overhead cover like tree branches and is much less effective and is vulnerable to APS in that mode. The AAR has a good example of this happening because Bill's tank was in a patch of trees. Its warhead is only able to penetrate 600mm which is weak if used in direct fire mode but deadly in the top attack mode. A frontal hit on a T-90 without ERA with a javelin is innefective. The skillful use of these three SOP combined should minimize the effect (but not eliminate it) of "cheating with Javelin"  :D 

If you are the US, fire them in salvoes once the enemy is in the open as to kill as many targets as possible before it can react by popping IR smoke or bring overwatch area fire on your positions. You can also use them to fix the enemy or prevent avenues of approach and use other assets to flank or bypass. Move them fast once they fire to make it difficult for the enemy to locate and destroy them with arty.

 

And yeah, fear the M1A2.. use air assets on them (the anti-armor ones have lot's (16) of effective ATGM, some even with top attack capabilities like the AT-9 ataka). If your opponent use them on defense in static positions, you can use precision guided arty on them but dont count too much on that. Engage them close and with local numerical superiority and from different directions. Use long-range Krysanthemas AT LONG-RANGE if the map permits it to take flank pot shots at them so you can attrit their numbers before engaging them with your main force. 

 

I give more advice to the Russian player because you in a less forgiving position compared to the US player.

Edited by antaress73

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When you rush your transports and armored fighting vehicles to the high ground, dismount them as fast as possible, possibly before you crest the heights. AFVs do not stand up well to T-90s or Abrams, and they have a nasty habit of taking all of your men down with you when they explode. 

 

Also, this may be self evident, but don't engage normal American infantry in close quarters combat with infantry from any other country or skill level, you will get lit up, even if you win you'll have a heap of casualties. Just pin them or take them out either as soon as you see them or as soon as they get in range. Their grenade launcher men tend to pin hostiles rather quickly, and they are very effective.

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I give more advice to the Russian player because you in a less forgiving position compared to the US player.

 

Antares is right, the US player even when outnumbered 10 to 1 against regulars or in some cases against heavy infantry will probably come out ahead, (its feels stacked, which it is like in real life). If there is a hostile M1 to a hill opposite to anyplace your men can see, you might as well either quit the game or use every air asset you have on it, because it will obliterate any T-90s or BMPs you have as soon as it can see them, and it probably won't run out of ammo... 

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On the plus side, I'm certain that learning how to use the Russian / Ukrainian forces effectively against the technologically superior US troops will almost assuredly make you a better CM player in both Modern and WW2 titles.

 

Well, that was at least true for me with CMSF, where the learning curve for playing the Syrian forces, especially against human opponents, was absolutely harrowing but well worth it in the end. 

 

My two-cents on the key elements for fighting on the modern battlefield 'with inferior forces especially' are (as mostly already stated),

 

Use all possible cover all the time for everything you have. But note also that buildings won't protect your troops very much when they are spotted! Helicopters love troops on rooftops!!!

Don't move your troops until you have to and always do it with overwatch.

As the US forces, engage the enemy at range with fire superiority whenever possible.

Fighting against US forces, try to remain hidden and lure them into keyhole crossfire corridors then retreat quickly and do it again!  

Use scouts. It's better to lose a couple of guys or a Humvee etc, than a whole platoon, APC or MBT.

Use your artillery and CAS assets wisely.

Examine your troops thoroughly at setup and try to assign them tasks they are best suited to.

Learn how the C3 comms networks in CM functions, including its delays up and down the chain of command. I can't stress enough how important and how often overlooked this element of the game seems to be. Even having a partial contact because of good C3 links seems to make a huge difference in spotting times.

And lastly, be patient! The modern battlefield is very unforgiving, don't run to meet death!

 

One thing that will be interesting to see is how ECM affects the US forces and if it is enough to level the field?

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have you met an Indian before? They are like miniature Einsteins.

 

Scientists, Technicians, Engineers are the same the world over.

 

But high-tech doesn't get cheaper elsewhere - people save money by outsourcing to India because the labour is cheap.

But in any case, outsourcing your primary weapons systems is a bad idea. Even now, Russia has a problem because they've p***ed Ukraine off and that's where some of their aircraft engines used to come from.

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The golden rule of Black Sea is:

 

See them first before they see you. If you can see it, you can kill it.

 

Second golden rule:

 

If you fail the first rule, MOVE and try your luck elsewhere.

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I'm basing this on my experiences on Shock Force: and when I transitioned from the first Comabt Mission games to the newer engine.

 

Okay everyone mentioned that infantry is more deadly.  That can't be stressed enough.  You can fail a mission very quickly with just one wrong move.  In Shock Force you were often attacking enemies that outnumbered you two or three to one.  So you had a platoon of infantry against a company of Syrians.  I found that annoying, and hopefully it won't be in this game.  With the better kit that Redforce is getting it probably won't be an issue.  Still, keep in mind that a squad moving up in Normandy and running into infantry might lose a couple of guys and then retreat, in a Shock Force you probably won't have anyone come back.  Since so much metal is being thrown around you'll have higher casualties even when in areas that are fairly safe.

 

Abrams have a reputation as invincible war machines.  They aren't..  Some guy in a building can hit an Abrams and disable it from a pretty good distance away.  The RPG-29 is very long ranged and offers a credible threat to pretty much anything (I just realized that they aren't even in this game, or at least not in the manuel).

 

Soldiers carrying a Guided missile launcher look silly.

 

Artillery has proximity fuses.  Anyone outside of a building is in danger.

 

BMPs look like tanks.  They are armored tracked vehicles with turrets, cannons and even missiles.  They arn't tanks. They can be knocked out by small arms fire.  They are also rolling bombs.  Keep your infantry away from them as much as possible becuase when they blow up, they'll take out pretty much everything around them.  Honestly, you are probably safer riding a bike into combat.

 

Russian tanks have poor situational awareness.  I once ambushed a platoon of Abrams with a company of T-72s.  My guys never got a shot off.

 

Tanks don't carry as much ammo as they did in WWII.  It's kind of disapointing.

 

With Guided anti-tank missiles you don't need to wait till the enemy gets close.  It will lower the fly time the closer you get, but unlike an AT gun it does the same damage.

 

Clearing out buildings is a real pain.  You can lose half a squad to two dopes hiding in a corner.  You have to do a lot supressing before you go in.

 

The US army doesn't have flamethowers anymore.

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One thing I like to add is: pay attention to the exact model of tank you have. At least in Shock Force that was incredibly important. In the WW2 games, whether you had a M4A3 or M4A1 doesn't make much of difference in terms of combat power. However, in Shock Force and to a lesser extent in CMBS probably, the exact model will have a significant impact on combat performance. There is literaly a 40 year technology gap between the first T-72 model and the latest one fielded now!

The older models maybe crap compared to the new M1s, but underestimate the latest models at your own peril :).

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Lots of great advice in this thread, thanks. I guess it remains to be seen whether or not those of us who have exclusively played WW2 CM will find this new battlefield "fun" or not. Sounds incredibly frustrating. We shall see, because I ordered it yesterday.

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Of course no one but you can decide if you will find it fun. Lots of things in this thread speak to the differences but a lot feels the same. You still have to find the enemy and then figure out how to coordinate your resources to push them off the objectives.

I have no modern experience but have played the WW2 games extensively. I am enjoying it a great deal. Hopefully you will too.

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have you met an Indian before? They are like miniature Einsteins.

I'd have left it with a negative point, but I already used my one for the day.  This was pretty darn ignorant. A good part of the team I work with is based in India.  A great bunch of men and women.  Referring to them in the way you have would get me in front of HR and rightly so.  It is rude and disrespectful.  You may want to watch comments like that as it is one sure way to get yourself banned off the forum.

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My biggest lesson from playing CMSF (and this will probably apply even more for Black Sea) is that mistakes will come at a HUGE price. WWII isn't very forgiving in itself but compared to Modern, it's a picnic when you screw up. I remember one game where I thought I had a street cleared so I sent in a squad of Marines. They were trucking along towards their waypoint destination and up pops an uncon with an rpg in a five story building directly in front of them. He took all of two seconds to plop a round dead center...BOOM!...scratch one squad...or at least 90% of it. One guy, one round, two seconds, and I was looking at a massive amount of KIA/WIAs and the removal of a helluva a lot of fire power from that particular mission. It's a fine line between caution and balls...and you are gonna lose many a dude finding out were that balance is. In other words, it's gonna rock!

 

 

Mord.

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I'd have left it with a negative point, but I already used my one for the day.  This was pretty darn ignorant. A good part of the team I work with is based in India.  A great bunch of men and women.  Referring to them in the way you have would get me in front of HR and rightly so.  It is rude and disrespectful.  You may want to watch comments like that as it is one sure way to get yourself banned off the forum.

dude, it was a joke, it's not meant to be serious. And how is called Indian people smart bad? You're weird.

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dude, it was a joke, it's not meant to be serious. And how is called Indian people smart bad? You're weird.

Yes I am, but that has nothing to do with this.

 

Still it is a joke in bad taste.  Even being weird I could recognize that.

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Yes I am, but that has nothing to do with this.

 

Still it is a joke in bad taste.  Even being weird I could recognize that.

no, but that's not what I mean, it's dark humor. It's funny because it's stupid or wrong, or both. You're supposed to detach yourself from the situation and laugh at it because it's obvious how stupid the joke was, or how wrong that statement is. That's why it's funny.

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Yes I am, but that has nothing to do with this.

 

Still it is a joke in bad taste.  Even being weird I could recognize that.

and being weird is a good thing, everyone is weird, I'm weird, I love being weird. But being wrong is another thing. Being "offended" over nonsense it's just, pathetic. Pathetically wrong. You have to have a sense of humor in life and not take something seriously, or you'll kill yourself one day. You got to laugh at the things in this life. How black people are continually being segregated against, or how the Americans killed all the native Americans, and called it freedom. It's funny because you're laughing at the Americans at how stupid they are. That's why its funny.

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and being weird is a good thing, everyone is weird, I'm weird, I love being weird. But being wrong is another thing. Being "offended" over nonsense it's just, pathetic. Pathetically wrong. You have to have a sense of humor in life and not take something seriously, or you'll kill yourself one day. You got to laugh at the things in this life. How black people are continually being segregated against, or how the Americans killed all the native Americans, and called it freedom. It's funny because you're laughing at the Americans at how stupid they are. That's why its funny.

 

I think its in your best interest to stop posting for now.

Edited by Raptorx7

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There is literaly a 40 year technology gap between the first T-72 model and the latest one fielded now!

Ha! I had just commented to someone a short while ago that with all the fancy new equipment in the game I'm still most drawn to the legendary old T64, a tank I'd been hearing about since the early 70s.  :)

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