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Doug Williams

How about some basic advice for those of us new to modern?

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Title pretty much says it all. Black Sea will be my first modern CM game. I've been playing CMBN/CMFI/CMRT since release, so I'm familiar with the game engine. 

 

What advice can you beta testers, Shock Force and Afghanistan players give to us who have only played WW2 CM? How should we adjust our tactics? What can we expect from all this newfangled equipment? 

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2135-Pic1-RB-ENVG.jpg- US Army advanced night vision optics.

 

 

 

Everything can die very, very. VERY quickly, it is absolutely vital you find the enemy before he finds you. Tanks like the Abrams and T-90AM have sophisticated optics packages that include thermal and night vision, if you can see the enemy chances are he sees you! Infantry at night are also an entirely new ball game, US forces have fancy new night vision goggles that incorporate both NV and thermal, effectively turning them into predator (Creepy huh?) , Russian and Ukrainian forces sport night vision as well but mostly only on there rifle optics, darkness is no where near the obstacle it was back in World War 2.

 

Theres more of course, but I will let everyone else chime in so I don't have to write an essay, I think these are the most important though really! :P

 

Edit: Check out ChrisND's videos here, he does a great job explaining and showing stuff off- https://www.youtube.com/user/NormalDude1066

Edited by Raptorx7

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I would say, probably just expect to have your troops die a lot more, faster while you learn.

 

So, similar to how you got used to CM2 WWII, just speeded up. :P

 

As more and more people learn via the above method, more and more Tips and Tricks will be posted.

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I think it's going to be a game either, of multiple small viewing arcs for infantary and tanks, because the first to scout will lose all the scouts. At the day, your infantary will still be hidden at maybe 1km+ distances, but nearer than that they will be spotted, so use your infantary in buildings and in woods to scout. But at night, it's just going to be, everyone one can spot anyone from any distance. So it's a game of who can see who first. Or just scouting little small areas at the field at a time.

Edited by stealthsilent1

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A lot of the same basic tactics that apply to CM WW2 apply to CM Modern.

 

You just have to remember that any unit that can be seen can be killed very quickly, including the M1 Abrams.

 

So typically, you will spend a lot of time scouting with your infantry, UAVs just to try to figure out where the enemy forces are located. AFVs should be kept out of LOS until you have a definitive target located and a plan on how to take it out.

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You just have to remember that any unit that can be seen can be killed very quickly, including the M1 Abrams.

 

That will take some getting used to, I imagine.

 

So how are infantry AT capabilities/ranges? Remember I'm used to the zooks and shreks of WW2. When I went through basic in the early '80s the LAW was the latest and greatest. I have no idea what's available now.

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That will take some getting used to, I imagine.

 

So how are infantry AT capabilities/ranges? Remember I'm used to the zooks and shreks of WW2. When I went through basic in the early '80s the LAW was the latest and greatest. I have no idea what's available now.

2km for javelins

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A lot of the same basic tactics that apply to CM WW2 apply to CM Modern.

 

You just have to remember that any unit that can be seen can be killed very quickly, including the M1 Abrams.

 

So typically, you will spend a lot of time scouting with your infantry, UAVs just to try to figure out where the enemy forces are located. AFVs should be kept out of LOS until you have a definitive target located and a plan on how to take it out.

youre right about the same tactics as it's still a game of hide and seek except now it's almost impossible to scout at night without being seen. But in the day you could do it. It's going to be have to played very differently, more like CQC IN A BUILDING.

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Proper ATGM teams (i.e., tripod mounted) are actually pretty comparable to WW2 AT guns in many ways - they are hard to spot, and can be devastating if well sited. ATGM's tend to be more powerful, but give away your position far more, and AT guns have a much higher ammo count and rate of fire. One of the things I'm really looking forward to in CMBS is that we will have the chance to have both at the same time (There were no AT guns in CMSF).

Related to the above, artillery times are way down (when comms are degraded, presumably). It's was possible in CMSF to call in mortar salvos in *two minutes*, if you were using a Forward Observer in a vehicle with the appropriate electronics. This does mean that any static position is limited in use, and therefore ATGM's have another advantage, since they're usually easier to pack up and move.

The US and British get Javelins, which are extremely effective, long range, and can top-attack to bypass most tank defences. They are hard counters to expensive armour coming from the other direction, but they do need a fair amount of range in between the infantry and the armour.

As to how Active Protection Systems are modelled - I think we'll have to wait and see. They seem to be fairly rare at the moment, but how that turns out in quick battles and scenarios is anyone's guess, and the simple answer seems to be "fire more missiles", which in a tactical game is a fine solution (since we don't have to pay for them...)

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That will take some getting used to, I imagine.

 

So how are infantry AT capabilities/ranges? Remember I'm used to the zooks and shreks of WW2. When I went through basic in the early '80s the LAW was the latest and greatest. I have no idea what's available now.

 

Oh boy, yeah both sides have plenty of new toys that make the LAW look like a pea shooter. Lets go through the list (Mainly because I have far too much time on my hands).

 

AT-4- Basically the replacement for the LAW its a single fire hand-held anti tank/emplacement rocket launcher, US squads are equipped generously with the AT-4. This baby can be fired from up to 300 meters away, after that its accuracy is diminished severely, however distance does not decrease penetration power, it is fully capable of penetrating up to 450mm of armor. Unfortunately it will probably have trouble with more advanced Russian tanks like the T-90 that sport Kontakt-5 ERA armor, firing from the side or rear though it is probably a guaranteed penetration and kill. The AT-4CS which is modeled in game can also be fired safely from inside buildings, without risk of injury from back-blast.

 

AT-4 in action-

 

Javelin Missile Launcher- The Javelin is one of the US strongest hand-held anti tank launcher systems in the world (Probably the best in the world honestly, no bias here I promise ;)), its effective range is about 2500m but it requires at least 75 to arm and acquire the target, it is also fire and forget. The Javelin consists of two parts, the CLU (Command launch unit) and the tube itself that carries the missile (Which is disposable), the javelin can be reused as long as i has a CLU unit, and missiles of course. When a Javelin is fired there is no warning, it is all done through passive IR tracking on the CLU, an interesting characteristic to the javelin is that once it is fired, it will climb high up into the sky above the target and attack the top of the tank, this means that there really is no way to defeat a javelin missile in that launch mode, it is to high for an APS (Active protection system) system to defeat and top armor isn't very thick on any Russian tank. A javelin can also fire horizontally, but this means it is at the mercy of an APS like arena which can knock it out of the sky. Make sure to grab Javelins out of the back of Bradleys, they are invaluable, and tip the scales immensely in US favor against armor. Oh yeah and don't miss they cost about 80K a pop!

 

Javelin Missile in action-

 

TOW 2-B Anti tank missile- The infamous TOW ATGM missile is usually mounted on APC's such as the Bradley, but can also be mounted on a tripod for infantry use, the TOW is wire guided and its launcher contains its own thermal imaging system for target aquisition. What is special about the TOW-2B (Emphasis on the B is that it is also a top attack munition much like the javelin, only the TOW-2B detonates above the target horizontally and fires an penetrator straight into the top, the TOW is vulnerable to APS though so be careful!

 

TOW-2B in action- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMxZ34Ptco

 

These are the main "hand-held" anti tank weapons that the US uses...with weapons like the Javelin its almost like were cheating isn't it? B)

Edited by Raptorx7

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Oh boy, yeah both sides have plenty of new toys that make the LAW look like a pea shooter. Lets go through the list (Mainly because I have far too much time on my hands).

 

AT-4- Basically the replacement for the LAW its a single fire hand-held anti tank/emplacement rocket launcher, US squads are equipped generously with the AT-4. This baby can be fired from up to 300 meters away, after that its accuracy is diminished severely, however distance does not decrease penetration power, it is fully capable of penetrating up to 450mm of armor. Unfortunately it will probably have trouble with more advanced Russian tanks like the T-90 that sport Kontakt-5 ERA armor, firing from the side or rear though it is probably a guaranteed penetration and kill. The AT-4CS which is modeled in game can also be fired safely from inside buildings, without risk of injury from back-blast.

 

AT-4 in action-

 

Javelin Missile Launcher- The Javelin is one of the US strongest hand-held anti tank launcher systems in the world (Probably the best in the world honestly, no bias here I promise ;)), its effective range is about 2500m but it requires at least 75 to arm and acquire the target, it is also fire and forget. The Javelin consists of two parts, the CLU (Command launch unit) and the tube itself that carries the missile (Which is disposable), the javelin can be reused as long as i has a CLU unit, and missiles of course. When a Javelin is fired there is no warning, it is all done through passive IR tracking on the CLU, an interesting characteristic to the javelin is that once it is fired, it will climb high up into the sky above the target and attack the top of the tank, this means that there really is no way to defeat a javelin missile in that launch mode, it is to high for an APS (Active protection system) system to defeat and top armor isn't very thick on any Russian tank. A javelin can also fire horizontally, but this means it is at the mercy of an APS like arena which can knock it out of the sky. Make sure to grab Javelins out of the back of Bradleys, they are invaluable, and tip the scales immensely in US favor against armor. Oh yeah and don't miss they cost about 80K a pop!

 

Javelin Missile in action-

 

TOW 2-B Anti tank missile- The infamous TOW ATGM missile is usually mounted on APC's such as the Bradley, but can also be mounted on a tripod for infantry use, the TOW is wire guided and its launcher contains its own thermal imaging system for target aquisition. What is special about the TOW-2B (Emphasis on the B is that it is also a top attack munition much like the javelin, only the TOW-2B detonates above the target horizontally and fires an penetrator straight into the top, the TOW is vulnerable to APS though so be careful!

 

TOW-2B in action- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMxZ34Ptco

 

These are the main "hand-held" anti tank weapons that the US uses...with weapons like the Javelin its almost like were cheating isn't it? B)

cool list. But 80k is stupidly expensive for something you could make for less than 10k

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I think if you can make it for 10 k you can find a way to make around 70k profit per missile.  Seems pretty hard to me.

ship it to india, everything is cheaper there. Plus they make a profit with the missiles. Tanks take like 3 million to make

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ship it to india, everything is cheaper there. Plus they make a profit with the missiles. Tanks take like 3 million to make

 

You are kidding...right?

 

I mean I can't even begin to tell you everything wrong with what you just said.

 

:huh:

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So how are infantry AT capabilities/ranges? Remember I'm used to the zooks and shreks of WW2. When I went through basic in the early '80s the LAW was the latest and greatest. I have no idea what's available now.

Nasty. Long range. Every country's infantry is more dangerous than the German army in the WW2 games.

 

The US and British get Javelins, which are extremely effective, long range, and can top-attack to bypass most tank defences. They are hard counters to expensive armour coming from the other direction, but they do need a fair amount of range in between the infantry and the armour.

Yeah, the Javelins are really nasty and I never grow tired of watching them fly.

 

Related to the above, artillery times are way down (when comms are degraded, presumably).

And precision munitions that are available for many batteries on all sides are truly wild.

 

As to how Active Protection Systems are modelled - I think we'll have to wait and see. They seem to be fairly rare at the moment, but how that turns out in quick battles and scenarios is anyone's guess, and the simple answer seems to be "fire more missiles", which in a tactical game is a fine solution (since we don't have to pay for them...)

One thing I will say about APS system is be careful with your own guys. Nothing sucks more than looing a squad of your men because your tank's APS system triggered to counter an enemy missile. Man it sucks.

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I wonder how Shtora is represented.

 

Does it just like make the missile miss or something.

 

I am actually unsure of how it works in reality. I know that it dazzles the reciever somehow.

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In a nutshell,

 

Modern infantry are far more lethal than their WW2 counterparts - in all aspects.  A modern infantry squad will have high rate of fire assault rifles with impressive ranges, usually one or more LMG gunners and the standard rifleman usually will have a grenade launcher on the assault rifle.  Depending on the nationality, there will be a designated marksman with a weapon to engage targets out to 800 metres.  Depending on nationality, there may be a dedicated AT gunner or some other specialist weapon (like for the US Army, the XM-25 anti defilade rifle).  Anyone in the squad can carry disposable AT weapons, so depending on scenario and availability of AT weapons, each soldier can carry one.

 

Disposable AT weapons are serious threats to all armor.  Some tanks like Abrams/T-90 may be able to weather a few light AT weapon but for the most part, unless the vehicle has got a Active Protection System or Explosive Reactive Armor, a hit from even a light AT weapon is going to wreck the vehicle crew's day.  Now remember, a modern 8 man squad may be carrying up to 8 LAW, so modern vehicles need to be very wary and alert to enemy infantry.

 

Anti Tanks weapons a step up for LAWs are even more capable - they have longer ranges, are guided (meaning very high hit probabilities) and are even more capable against heavy armor.  They are also very portable so anticipate their presence in numbers on the battlefield.   Systems like Javelin are game changes - they are top attack and autonomous guided system, meaning the gunner can fire the missile and immediately bolt for cover with the missile steering itself and top attacking the target to avoid ERA and APS defensive systems.

 

One shot kills are common on the modern battlefield.  Gone are the days of WW2 tanks duels where it may take a half dozen shots to seal the fate of a tank depending on the tank matchup and range.  Modern tanks can put a round in the pickle barrel at ranges of 3000-4000 metres and do it all day long, which means engagement ranges are typically far longer than usual engagement ranges in WW2.

 

Modern sensors and optics means expect to be seen clear across the map, day or night.  Thermal imaging means even infantry across the map will be spotted with frustrating regularity unless kept to low ground or heavy cover.

 

WW2 hardpoints like bunkers and the like do not offer the protection against weapons.  Modern armies have specialized weapons or ammunition (like thermobaric warheads) designed to kill infantry in bunkers and buildings so depending on the situation and scenario, bunkering up is to trap yourself in a death trap.  Like wise, modern artillery systems and certain weapon systems (anti cover weapons systems like programmable airburst rounds) make short work of infantry in trenches or behind walls.

 

Modern armies have high mobility and can rapidly move and reorient on the battlefield.  A modern infantry squad usually roars into battle in an armored carrier with enough firepower to pound to scrap a WW2 rifle company without breaking a sweat and with the speed to leave your typical WW2 halftrack in the dust.  That means, unopposed, the enemy can be nearly anywhere on the typical scenario map in a few minutes, complicating tactics and defenses.  Guderian would have given up a Panzer regiment for the capabilities and lethality of a single modern US Abrams tank company if it was available in WW2.

 

In general, try not be to seen.  To be spotted and engaged first by the enemy means most likely the start of a bad day and the loss of an asset, be it either infantry or armored vehicles.  Try to spot and engage first is the rule of the day.

 

Hope this helps give you a feeling for the differences between WW2 and modern warfare.

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In a nutshell,

 

Modern infantry are far more lethal than their WW2 counterparts - in all aspects.  A modern infantry squad will have high rate of fire assault rifles with impressive ranges, usually one or more LMG gunners and the standard rifleman usually will have a grenade launcher on the assault rifle.  Depending on the nationality, there will be a designated marksman with a weapon to engage targets out to 800 metres.  Depending on nationality, there may be a dedicated AT gunner or some other specialist weapon (like for the US Army, the XM-25 anti defilade rifle).  Anyone in the squad can carry disposable AT weapons, so depending on scenario and availability of AT weapons, each soldier can carry one.

 

Disposable AT weapons are serious threats to all armor.  Some tanks like Abrams/T-90 may be able to weather a few light AT weapon but for the most part, unless the vehicle has got a Active Protection System or Explosive Reactive Armor, a hit from even a light AT weapon is going to wreck the vehicle crew's day.  Now remember, a modern 8 man squad may be carrying up to 8 LAW, so modern vehicles need to be very wary and alert to enemy infantry.

 

Anti Tanks weapons a step up for LAWs are even more capable - they have longer ranges, are guided (meaning very high hit probabilities) and are even more capable against heavy armor.  They are also very portable so anticipate their presence in numbers on the battlefield.   Systems like Javelin are game changes - they are top attack and autonomous guided system, meaning the gunner can fire the missile and immediately bolt for cover with the missile steering itself and top attacking the target to avoid ERA and APS defensive systems.

 

One shot kills are common on the modern battlefield.  Gone are the days of WW2 tanks duels where it may take a half dozen shots to seal the fate of a tank depending on the tank matchup and range.  Modern tanks can put a round in the pickle barrel at ranges of 3000-4000 metres and do it all day long, which means engagement ranges are typically far longer than usual engagement ranges in WW2.

 

Modern sensors and optics means expect to be seen clear across the map, day or night.  Thermal imaging means even infantry across the map will be spotted with frustrating regularity unless kept to low ground or heavy cover.

 

WW2 hardpoints like bunkers and the like do not offer the protection against weapons.  Modern armies have specialized weapons or ammunition (like thermobaric warheads) designed to kill infantry in bunkers and buildings so depending on the situation and scenario, bunkering up is to trap yourself in a death trap.  Like wise, modern artillery systems and certain weapon systems (anti cover weapons systems like programmable airburst rounds) make short work of infantry in trenches or behind walls.

 

Modern armies have high mobility and can rapidly move and reorient on the battlefield.  A modern infantry squad usually roars into battle in an armored carrier with enough firepower to pound to scrap a WW2 rifle company without breaking a sweat and with the speed to leave your typical WW2 halftrack in the dust.  That means, unopposed, the enemy can be nearly anywhere on the typical scenario map in a few minutes, complicating tactics and defenses.  Guderian would have given up a Panzer regiment for the capabilities and lethality of a single modern US Abrams tank company if it was available in WW2.

 

In general, try not be to seen.  To be spotted and engaged first by the enemy means most likely the start of a bad day and the loss of an asset, be it either infantry or armored vehicles.  Try to spot and engage first is the rule of the day.

 

Hope this helps give you a feeling for the differences between WW2 and modern warfare.

so basically you can see it like each unit is a man in a battle in a building, where everyone has good eyesight.

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...ATGM teams (i.e., tripod mounted)...AT guns...in CMBS is that we will have the chance to have both at the same time...

Who's still fielding ATG? I thought they went the way of the dodo sometime around 1960...

One approach I've heard tell of is the "empty battlefield". Enemy can't shoot at what it can't see so everything is kept as hidden as possible at all times, exposing only eyeballs and what's necessary to get any jobs that the eyeballs have found done.

Edited by womble

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The US and British get Javelins, which are extremely effective, long range, and can top-attack to bypass most tank defences. They are hard counters to expensive armour coming from the other direction, but they do need a fair amount of range in between the infantry and the armour.

 

Javelins are outrageous in CMSF. Huge, and I mean huge force multipliers. The only downside is not using them on low value targets, as infantry will happily target buildings if you forget to switch them to target light. 

 

M1's are still behemoths if you protect them from the ATGM threat. In fact, if you can keep them away from heavy ATGM's they're almost unstoppable unless you're unlucky. 

Edited by Sulman

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Javelins are outrageous in CMSF. Huge, and I mean huge force multipliers. The only downside is not using them on low value targets, as infantry will happily target buildings if you forget to switch them to target light. 

 

Not any more. We've adjusted their behavior in Black Sea so that they won't waste Javelins on soft targets.

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Who's still fielding ATG? I thought they went the way of the dodo sometime around 1960...

 

Ukraine is still using the MT-12 Rapira as a direct fire AT weapon, due a lack of more plentiful better options. It is definitely old, but it can still wreck anything less than a main battle tank.

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Not any more. We've adjusted their behavior in Black Sea so that they won't waste Javelins on soft targets.

Is there any way to order units to use javelins against buildings at all? 

 

They're used IRL against infantry in buildings / bunkers ... I always appreciated being able to demolish a building floor with them in CMSF if needed.

 

Does the armor-heavy environment just preclude their use against anything but vehicles?

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