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So which is the best spotter?


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yea but then I don't get to talk about it, and it's fun to talk about it.

Yes and no.  Talking about it is fun in the context of what you can and can't do.  This has gone way beyond that.  You will know how it works when the game is out and you can try it. 99% of the suppositions you have floated are just flat out wrong. No offense intended, just a clarification. It is cool you are excited by the game's impending release, but slow down just a tad.  I think you will find the advantages are not totally overpowering.  I have been on the receiving end of Russian T90s spotting my FOs who I thought were well hidden in woods and I have seen other circumstances where they went right past a guy hiding.  CM's variables are huge.  You'll have to learn what you can get away with and sometimes you'll find things work sometimes and not other times.  Stop worrying about Ghillie suits, or uber tech that makes it impossible to scout.  The fundamental concepts of recon still work and you will find your scout/sniper teams to still be functional.  US scout sniper teams have some advantages based on doctrine over Russians. (They function as a team as a weapons platform rather than as an individual).  This makes them excellent recon elements.  Due to the god eye phenomenon of playing a game, you also get the same amount of intel from a Russian sniper, however because of the nature of doctrine, what you can do with that intel is very different.  It is a very very different game in how it plays, but the same core precepts are still very much there.  Ignore them and you die just like in CMSF, just faster.

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Yes and no.  Talking about it is fun in the context of what you can and can't do.  This has gone way beyond that.  You will know how it works when the game is out and you can try it. 99% of the suppositions you have floated are just flat out wrong. No offense intended, just a clarification. It is cool you are excited by the game's impending release, but slow down just a tad.  I think you will find the advantages are not totally overpowering.  I have been on the receiving end of Russian T90s spotting my FOs who I thought were well hidden in woods and I have seen other circumstances where they went right past a guy hiding.  CM's variables are huge.  You'll have to learn what you can get away with and sometimes you'll find things work sometimes and not other times.  Stop worrying about Ghillie suits, or uber tech that makes it impossible to scout.  The fundamental concepts of recon still work and you will find your scout/sniper teams to still be functional.  US scout sniper teams have some advantages based on doctrine over Russians. (They function as a team as a weapons platform rather than as an individual).  This makes them excellent recon elements.  Due to the god eye phenomenon of playing a game, you also get the same amount of intel from a Russian sniper, however because of the nature of doctrine, what you can do with that intel is very different.  It is a very very different game in how it plays, but the same core precepts are still very much there.  Ignore them and you die just like in CMSF, just faster.

you know, it's just a game with rules. Just like anything else. Like chess, or tag, or hide and go seek, or chopping someone's head off with a knife. It's all the same.
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All along the 'third player' in CM has been the terrain. Its not just weapon against weapon or technology against technology. You need to learn to play the topography like a fiddle. In CMBS you need to not just 'shoot-&-scoot', you need to 'peek-&-scoot' as well. Expose your scout/FO/sniper only as long as they need to spot the enemy, then get them back behind a terrain feature before someone take a pot-shot at them. Someone - either Bil or Chris - had a FO call in an artillery strike then he got himself out of LOS until the spotting round was due to drop, then he pops up in time to do his job.

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stealthsilent, the kind of scout/snipers you are asking for don't have a place at the tactical level, although they could be very useful. In RL they are division and corps level assets. Remember CMBS is built around real life TO&Es, and elite scout/snipers aren't battalion level operators.

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All along the 'third player' in CM has been the terrain. Its not just weapon against weapon or technology against technology. You need to learn to play the topography like a fiddle. In CMBS you need to not just 'shoot-&-scoot', you need to 'peek-&-scoot' as well. Expose your scout/FO/sniper only as long as they need to spot the enemy, then get them back behind a terrain feature before someone take a pot-shot at them. Someone - either Bil or Chris - had a FO call in an artillery strike then he got himself out of LOS until the spotting round was due to drop, then he pops up in time to do his job.

shootand scoots one of my favorite moves
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stealthsilent, the kind of scout/snipers you are asking for don't have a place at the tactical level, although they could be very useful. In RL they are division and corps level assets. Remember CMBS is built around real life TO&Es, and elite scout/snipers aren't battalion level operators.

maybeits trying to emulate the U.S. army, but it's a game.
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I would rather BF went for the most realistic modeling of what happens on the battlefield?

realistic doesn't mean good. The world could of played out in a billion different way, each as real as the next. It really doesn't matter what the game is about or how it's played, but what makes it good is that it makes us use the skills inside of us and that is as real as you can get. What if in the future they have super laser beams that can shoot in between atoms to kill you, and senors that can detect life within a 20 mile radius, those things are real, in the future, who cares what this version of what we have is in the game or not, because you can't change the genre of what it is. A game, like any other game. The medium is us, and that's what makes it "real"
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realistic doesn't mean good. The world could of played out in a billion different way, each as real as the next. It really doesn't matter what the game is about or how it's played, but what makes it good is that it makes us use the skills inside of us and that is as real as you can get. What if in the future they have super laser beams that can shoot in between atoms to kill you, and senors that can detect life within a 20 mile radius, those things are real, in the future, who cares what this version of what we have is in the game or not, because you can't change the genre of what it is. A game, like any other game. The medium is us, and that's what makes it "real"

 

Going to have to disagree - there are a multitude of games which make us use the skills inside us, but which are not realistic. That's fine, but this one strives for realistic. And that's good. :) It's why we're here and not on those other games' forums.

 

PS: Also see the latest UKR/US report in the AAR for alleviation of your spotting concerns - seems even the much vaunted US can run into ambush despite their modern gear. It's all good :) ( and realistic ;) )

 

And now, lest you start fingering your knife, I'm outta here. I'm not much over long-distances, but I can really shift for the first 50m, so you can work on sburke, he's backing away slowly. :lol: 

Edited by Baneman
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And now, lest you start fingering your knife, I'm outta here. I'm not much over long-distances, but I can really shift for the first 50m, so you can work on sburke, he's backing away slowly. :lol: 

What is that saying "I don't have to out run the bear I just have to out run you". Sorry @sburke looks like @Baneman has a head start. :D

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A sniper adjusted to 'elite' and 'fanatic' with a good chain of command  is a VERY touch nut to go up against in the game and very difficult to locate. Players often leave their sniper in place to fire away at oncoming troops from the same 6th floor window, then they wonder why they die so quickly. That's not how a sniper is meant to work. Who plays their snipers 'one shot then relocate'? Basically nobody.

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A sniper adjusted to 'elite' and 'fanatic' with a good chain of command  is a VERY touch nut to go up against in the game and very difficult to locate. Players often leave their sniper in place to fire away at oncoming troops from the same 6th floor window, then they wonder why they die so quickly. That's not how a sniper is meant to work. Who plays their snipers 'one shot then relocate'? Basically nobody.

Good point. In CMSF I often tried that tactic when sniping with AT-14/13 or Javelins in PBEM games. Obviously the average CM mission isn't about killing one or two high ranking officers, so relocating a sniper after every shot would probably not be the most effective tactic for snipers in CMBS. Could be a fun mission though, 'destroy unit objective' in a high threat environment.

Edited by Lethaface
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Surviving vs thermals doesn't depend on absolute emission elimination, only suppressing it to the point where one blends in against the thermal background and/or can't be seen at tactically useful ranges.  Additionally, as noted by myself and others, rain, cold fog and other things can royally screw up thermals. Elsewhere, I reported direct experience in which an M48A5 tank I was TC on for sensor tests at Hiughes disappeared from the AN/TAS-4 TOW Night Sight in fog and rain on a cold dreary day. Range? ~ 1 klick.

 

Note to Mods: Am taking a flyer here, but the below link is directly pertinent to the discussion and is quite interesting from a military-technical standpoint. Raven Aerostar via partnership with GORE of GORE-Tex™ fame has the NEMESIS™ line of protective wear vs optical/EO (including thermals) /radar surveillance threats. This isn't some tech aborning. The protective suit already exists and is on the ITAR list.

 

(Fair Use)

 

"CAMOUFLAGE CONCEALMENT & SIGNATURE DECEPTION

Raven Aerostar’s NEMESIS™ Garments, Personal Hides and Equipment Covers represent a breakthrough in signature concealment for warfighters and security personnel. Using Gore® Multispectral Concealment materials, NEMESIS Garments, Hides and Covers are the first material technology that greatly reduce the range of detection from sophisticated multispectral electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors. The modern warfighter and security personnel have an amplified need for detection protection against rapidly advancing persistent sensor technology. NEMESIS conceals personnel and high value equipment against advanced infrared surveillance sensors. This new camouflage, concealment and deception (CCD) technology offers a significant tactical advantage for daytime and nighttime operations, including improved infiltration and exfiltration with minimal detection.

nemesis.png

NEMESIS TURKEY SUIT

 

The NEMESIS Turkey Suit is the first product in Raven Aerostar's NEMESIS series of innovative protective wear, providing signature management through its use of Gore Multispectral Concealment materials. Additionally, the NEMESIS Turkey Suit reduces detection from sophisticated radar technology and advanced radio requency (RF)."

 

There are solutions out there against modern surveillance means, and I encourage BFC to look into this. 

 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Surviving vs thermals doesn't depend on absolute emission elimination, only suppressing it to the point where one blends in against the thermal background and/or can't be seen at tactically useful ranges.  Additionally, as noted by myself and others, rain, cold fog and other things can royally screw up thermals. Elsewhere, I reported direct experience in which an M48A5 tank I was TC on for sensor tests at Hiughes disappeared from the AN/TAS-4 TOW Night Sight in fog and rain on a cold dreary day. Range? ~ 1 klick.

 

Note to Mods: Am taking a flyer here, but the below link is directly pertinent to the discussion and is quite interesting from a military-technical standpoint. Raven Aerostar via partnership with GORE of GORE-Tex™ fame has the NEMESIS™ line of protective wear vs optical/EO (including thermals) /radar surveillance threats. This isn't some tech aborning. The protective suit already exists and is on the ITAR list.

 

(Fair Use)

 

"CAMOUFLAGE CONCEALMENT & SIGNATURE DECEPTION

Raven Aerostar’s NEMESIS™ Garments, Personal Hides and Equipment Covers represent a breakthrough in signature concealment for warfighters and security personnel. Using Gore® Multispectral Concealment materials, NEMESIS Garments, Hides and Covers are the first material technology that greatly reduce the range of detection from sophisticated multispectral electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors. The modern warfighter and security personnel have an amplified need for detection protection against rapidly advancing persistent sensor technology. NEMESIS conceals personnel and high value equipment against advanced infrared surveillance sensors. This new camouflage, concealment and deception (CCD) technology offers a significant tactical advantage for daytime and nighttime operations, including improved infiltration and exfiltration with minimal detection.

nemesis.png

NEMESIS TURKEY SUIT

 

The NEMESIS Turkey Suit is the first product in Raven Aerostar's NEMESIS series of innovative protective wear, providing signature management through its use of Gore Multispectral Concealment materials. Additionally, the NEMESIS Turkey Suit reduces detection from sophisticated radar technology and advanced radio requency (RF)."

 

There are solutions out there against modern surveillance means, and I encourage BFC to look into this. 

 

Regards,

John Kettler

When their blurb includes pictures from an Abram's thermal imager in 100 meter increments I will consider getting impressed.  When it includes the above after its been worn in the field for a week I might actually BE impressed.

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When their blurb includes pictures from an Abram's thermal imager in 100 meter increments I will consider getting impressed.  When it includes the above after its been worn in the field for a week I might actually BE impressed.

 

Even thermal images of it being worn for several hours at a go would be a start, let alone being worn whilst doing physical activity.

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Going to have to disagree - there are a multitude of games which make us use the skills inside us, but which are not realistic. That's fine, but this one strives for realistic. And that's good. :) It's why we're here and not on those other games' forums.

Beat me too it  :)  expectations for realistic games and futuristic fantasy games are not the same.

Edited by Placebo
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I would not be surprised in the least if something like the nemesis suit works fine in the field for weeks of use. Neither would I be surprised to find relatively effective knock offs manufactured in asia to pop up on the other side 2 weeks into a serious conflict. You put out some 40-200 W of thermal energy which you have to blend in with the background. During the day the background gets some 200-1000 W on a m². How this sunlight gets absorbed and puts out IR is not very uniform. This should make it relatively easy to hide if you aren't IR-naked against a cool wooded backgrount, north wall, etc. Also you can leave the back (or better down facing) parts of the uniform open for ventilation if you take minor precautions. The air flow with a degree or two more heat won't really show a lot I believe. Evaporating some liquid to cool you is real simple. When prone you can transfer your heat to the ground for quite a while before it'll show in most environments I assume. Once you get up after you've been prone a while though you may really want to get a move on cause you just left a nice decoy in your position. If you want to avoid that and have some time you can ram a heat pipe (the one with phase transition) into the ground.

On the other hand I expect low cost decoys (hand warmers and the like) to ramp up considerably in order to spam expensive sensors.

 

Since shadows are modeled I wonder how much work it would be to model contrast to thermal background...

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our snipers aren't good enough shots for that.

 

I've found our snipers are good if you let them self-target at their leisure. Then they start dropping heavy weapons crews and officers with ease. If you order them to target they appear to become flustered and start missing.  :D

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