So which is the best spotter?

[stealthsilent1]

So which is best at spotting, without being seen, tell me the pros and cons of an optical Humber, a fully equipt scout team in a bush, and in a building, which would be the best for stealthy spotters?

[MikeyD]

The Russians have a whole array of fancy-optics artillery spotting vehicles, including battlefield radar. The trick, though, is to stay really really really far away from the action. Something that's very nearly impossible in the game. If you find yourself a nice huge map with a convenient overview in the far right corner then sit back and watch the action. But if someone spots you you might get a precision 120mm mortar round crashing down on your roof a couple minutes later. So FO teams on foot seem the most convenient.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MikeyD

[stealthsilent1]

The Russians have a whole array of fancy-optics artillery spotting vehicles, including battlefield radar. The trick, though, is to stay really really really far away from the action. Something that's very nearly impossible in the game. If you find yourself a nice huge map with a convenient overview in the far right corner then sit back and watch the action. But if someone spots you you might get a precision 120mm mortar round crashing down on your roof a couple minutes later. So FO teams on foot seem the most convenient.

yea I was thinking the same thing, people are smaller than tanks

[womble]

And, with all the IR gear peering straight through vegetation, having those dismounts peeking out from a nice heavy building would probably be better than them skulking in a bush.

[Stagler]

Id like to think the Khrizantema with its radar and Thermal optics would be efficient at spotting - but it has shown in the battle rep that it cant even spot something right infront of it.

[stealthsilent1]

And, with all the IR gear peering straight through vegetation, having those dismounts peeking out from a nice heavy building would probably be better than them skulking in a bush.

ir works in the day right, not just in the night? Can't the troops just put mud on themselves like in predator?

[AttorneyAtWar]

ir works in the day right, not just in the night? Can't the troops just put mud on themselves like in predator?

 

Don't believe everything you see in movies, even if its a good one!

 

In the situation your describing if there was mud available you aren't going to want to be covered in the stuff, it would get on your equipment and be extremely uncomfortable, especially in a modern warfare setting, I would only see that as a last resort. Mud isn't always available either, and it wouldn't work for very long...

Edited January 7, 2015 by Raptorx7

[domfluff]

Haha, nope - mud won't help with thermal sensors for very long. You're still going to be producing body heat (especially whilst in combat), and this will warm up the mud.

It would help for a short period of time, but it's not terribly practical.

The same basic problem occurs with any similar system - you have to produce heat, and the heat has to go somewhere.

[stealthsilent1]

Haha, nope - mud won't help with thermal sensors for very long. You're still going to be producing body heat (especially whilst in combat), and this will warm up the mud.

It would help for a short period of time, but it's not terribly practical.

The same basic problem occurs with any similar system - you have to produce heat, and the heat has to go somewhere.

then just wear a special jacket that blocks out heat. They can't tell

[domfluff]

It's a question of Thermodynamics. If you have clothing (and it would have to be a full body suit) that blocks out heat, then it either has to be trapping the heat inside, or losing it through another method (i.e. expelling it somewhere where the IR sensor cannot see it).

This is leaving aside the issue of whether it would be possible to block 100% of the signature, which it probably isn't - any material you use is going to heat up, at a varying rate.

Having to walk around - let alone fight! - in a full body suit that lets none of your heat escape is going to get untenable very quickly.

Your best bet for spotters would therefore be something that wasn't human - a UAV, and preferably a small and low-powered one that would emit as small a thermal signature as possible.
 

[stealthsilent1]

It's a question of Thermodynamics. If you have clothing (and it would have to be a full body suit) that blocks out heat, then it either has to be trapping the heat inside, or losing it through another method (i.e. expelling it somewhere where the IR sensor cannot see it).

This is leaving aside the issue of whether it would be possible to block 100% of the signature, which it probably isn't - any material you use is going to heat up, at a varying rate.

Having to walk around - let alone fight! - in a full body suit that lets none of your heat escape is going to get untenable very quickly.

Your best bet for spotters would therefore be something that wasn't human - a UAV, and preferably a small and low-powered one that would emit as small a thermal signature as possible.

or like a little rover that looks like a bush, where you can drive it to where you want it to be. And no. Just have a cooling system inside the suit. I mean, if you just want a scouting squad, they don't need to move that much anyway.

[George MC]

ir works in the day right, not just in the night? Can't the troops just put mud on themselves like in predator?

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/security/how-to-block-ir-infrared-thermal-imaging/

[stealthsilent1]

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/security/how-to-block-ir-infrared-thermal-imaging/

so wear a guille suit. Why don't we have scout snipers in cmbs?

[AttorneyAtWar]

so wear a guille suit. Why don't we have scout snipers in cmbs?

 

Snipers are in CMBS...

[stealthsilent1]

Snipers are in CMBS...

not with guille suits.

[AttorneyAtWar]

not with guille suits.

 

I hate to sound immature here but, so what?

[stealthsilent1]

I hate to sound immature here but, so what?

1, what's the point of a sniper if he is not hidden. That's all a sniper is. To shut up, act like a bush, and tell me where everyone is. I couldn't care less about his gun. I need guys, who are invisible. That's the whole point of. A scout sniper. I don't care about the sniper, I want some sentry that stays relatively invisible. I mean, you trade in being able to shoot, to being able to stay hidden

[Justicar]

Nothing is going to save you from all this modern tech. No special suit, no slathering of mud, no heat vent coming from your rear.

Times are changing, adapt or die.

[George MC]

Unmanned Aerial vehicles are the scouts of the future. In CMBS they can do a frighteningly good job, as they can in RL.

[stealthsilent1]

Unmanned Aerial vehicles are the scouts of the future. In CMBS they can do a frighteningly good job, as they can in RL.

dude they get shot down like nothing, I mean, just change the level of stealthiness on a sniper unit, and change the model a bit.

[akd]

Cuz guys jumping out of the back of Bradleys, Strykers, BTRs and BMPs would look like nobs in ghillie suits, even if they didn't caught in a hatch on the way out.

[stealthsilent1]

Cuz guys jumping out of the back of Bradleys, Strykers, BTRs and BMPs would look like nobs in ghillie suits, even if they didn't caught in a hatch on the way out.

?

[womble]

Just have a cooling system inside the suit.

Because that's impossible. You need to know about thermodynamics; it makes the world a lot less mysterious. Heat has to go somewhere. Usually, it radiates out or is convected away from a person. IR scopes will see that. If you insulate the person, the heat stays within the insulation. You can wear thick enough insulation to kill yourself on a June day and keep your IR signature low enough that you won't be any more visible than the rock you're crouched behind, but then you'd be dead of heat prostration. So you have to make the heat go somewhere else to cool yourself down. You could have a cooling loop in the suit that connected to a radiator by a long, insulated hose, so you could put the radiator in defilade somewhere. An old tabletop RPG Traveller posited a system where an aerosol can was used to cool the emissions from an insulated suit (expanding gas cools; mix that in the right ratio with the hot exhaust from the "personal air conditioning" and you're only kicking out air at ambient. While the general physics is sound, and they were probably exploring such tech back in the 80s when Mr Miller was making his game, I don't think anything has come of it, at least in the field of personal equipment.

 

 

so wear a guille suit. Why don't we have scout snipers in cmbs?

Ghillie suits aren't, AFAIK, very effective against IR spotting. Something hotter than the background is brighter than the background. Active combatants are generally a fair bit warmer than ambient. End of.

 

1, what's the point of a sniper if he is not hidden.

It's a fair point. So it would appear that the days of the human sniper on the full-on battlefield are numbered.

That's all a sniper is.

Nope. Snipers are also there to eliminate key enemy personnel; they wouldn't train in marksmanship quite so assiduously if using that gun wasn't part of their job description. I know a guy who was what you're describing. He was, while serving, a forward observer for the RAF. He carried a pistol for self defense and relied on his stealth to remain alive in a combat zone. Not a sniper.

...you trade in being able to shoot, to being able to stay hidden

Or you stay far enough away that shooting your BMG-calibre AMR/Winchester .308 magnum-load slinger won't expose you immediately, or you use a low-signature weapon from closer in and you displace after every shot.

But as you noted, the sniper's role in a real modern battlefield would be compromised to the point of them being just another rifle, and the focus of CM really isn't the Snake Eaters anyway.

[stealthsilent1]

Because that's impossible. You need to know about thermodynamics; it makes the world a lot less mysterious. Heat has to go somewhere. Usually, it radiates out or is convected away from a person. IR scopes will see that. If you insulate the person, the heat stays within the insulation. You can wear thick enough insulation to kill yourself on a June day and keep your IR signature low enough that you won't be any more visible than the rock you're crouched behind, but then you'd be dead of heat prostration. So you have to make the heat go somewhere else to cool yourself down. You could have a cooling loop in the suit that connected to a radiator by a long, insulated hose, so you could put the radiator in defilade somewhere. An old tabletop RPG Traveller posited a system where an aerosol can was used to cool the emissions from an insulated suit (expanding gas cools; mix that in the right ratio with the hot exhaust from the "personal air conditioning" and you're only kicking out air at ambient. While the general physics is sound, and they were probably exploring such tech back in the 80s when Mr Miller was making his game, I don't think anything has come of it, at least in the field of personal equipment.  Ghillie suits aren't, AFAIK, very effective against IR spotting. Something hotter than the background is brighter than the background. Active combatants are generally a fair bit warmer than ambient. End of. It's a fair point. So it would appear that the days of the human sniper on the full-on battlefield are numbered.Nope. Snipers are also there to eliminate key enemy personnel; they wouldn't train in marksmanship quite so assiduously if using that gun wasn't part of their job description. I know a guy who was what you're describing. He was, while serving, a forward observer for the RAF. He carried a pistol for self defense and relied on his stealth to remain alive in a combat zone. Not a sniper.Or you stay far enough away that shooting your BMG-calibre AMR/Winchester .308 magnum-load slinger won't expose you immediately, or you use a low-signature weapon from closer in and you displace after every shot.But as you noted, the sniper's role in a real modern battlefield would be compromised to the point of them being just another rifle, and the focus of CM really isn't the Snake Eaters anyway.

yea but a normal unit would just get spotted, isn't there some kind of long range hidden observers? Or just something where it's not as obvious. Because I'm trying to think a way around the infrared vision. Sure you can't use it in the day, but in the night, how do you scout anything when everyone can see you from a mile away?

[Wicky]

how do you scout anything when everyone can see you from a mile away?

 

 

With difficulty, and something that will be massively different and a challenge compared to WW2 titles.

 

It will be when your scouts get shot at with 'splodey fings then you'll have the indication that they've stumbled upon the enemy. If you lucky your scout's sensors/ night vision will be superior to theirs and they'll live to tell the tale.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Wicky