Slow command, spotting, and fatigue

[stealthsilent1]

Is it worth moving my units slowly up the last floor of a building? How good is the slow command at concealing your position, and how much does fatigue affect your accuracy and general effectiveness?

[Baneman]

I think there's a small morale penalty when Tired - I can't be sure because when my guys are Tired they're either not fighting, or in so deep that "subtle" penalties are out the window

 

Slow is pretty good for concealment - especially if the enemy haven't already seen you eg. crawling the last AS into some cover gaining LoS on enemy positions. I've also used it successfully to get guys into a top story, but once there they may be more visible ( peering out of windows )  than a guy at the edge of a forest, say.

[stealthsilent1]

I think there's a small morale penalty when Tired - I can't be sure because when my guys are Tired they're either not fighting, or in so deep that "subtle" penalties are out the window

 

Slow is pretty good for concealment - especially if the enemy haven't already seen you eg. crawling the last AS into some cover gaining LoS on enemy positions. I've also used it successfully to get guys into a top story, but once there they may be more visible ( peering out of windows )  than a guy at the edge of a forest, say.

shoot, I was hoping the would be as visible.

[Baneman]

Don't take what I say as necessarily gospel - after several/many games, "highly specific" kinda goes out the window and "most of the time" comes in.

 

Thing is, SLOW gets them there unseen, but once they're there, unless they're Hiding, they're as visible as anyone else - which is where the inherent cover of the position comes in.

 

But infinite combinations become possible - you SLOW up and HIDE because someone else can see the relevant area. Then when the time is right, you pop up, spot the enemy and give him a nasty shock.   Or your timing and/or spotting is totally banjaxed and you get shot down like dogs.   And everything in between. Which is why we   this game.

[stealthsilent1]

Don't take what I say as necessarily gospel - after several/many games, "highly specific" kinda goes out the window and "most of the time" comes in.

 

Thing is, SLOW gets them there unseen, but once they're there, unless they're Hiding, they're as visible as anyone else - which is where the inherent cover of the position comes in.

 

But infinite combinations become possible - you SLOW up and HIDE because someone else can see the relevant area. Then when the time is right, you pop up, spot the enemy and give him a nasty shock.   Or your timing and/or spotting is totally banjaxed and you get shot down like dogs.   And everything in between. Which is why we   this game.

there is nothing, where my guys can stay hidden and keep on looking?

[sburke]

i have used slow movement into position in buildings and then hidden there for most of a scenario spotting, yes you can do it.  I used to use hunt, but it has it's own issues in that it cancels all subsequent commands.  I can have a Target arc so they won't reveal themselves, but they likely won't be where I want them.  In woods terrain, I am finding in CMBS, concealment does not work quite as well as it did in previous titles, the enemy has better spotting capabilities.  Buildings still seem to be pretty good.

[womble]

Is it worth moving my units slowly up the last floor of a building?

Absolutely. Yes. Move Slowly in any building where the enemy can see the building.

How good is the slow command at concealing your position...

Very. In buildings, if you move Slow, give very tight target arcs and Hide at the end, you can remain unobserved across even quite narrow streets. If you "Quick"ed in the same position you'd get spotted immediately. Behind vegetation, at least prior to the proliferation of IR vision aids, you can pretty much consider Slow to be as hard to spot as static troops, plus Slow keeps them on their bellies. In addition, Slow moving troops will retain much of their situational awareness, as long as there's not something solid they can't see over from their crawling posture.

...and how much does fatigue affect your accuracy and general effectiveness?

Not as much as being dead or not having reached your firing point in time. My assessment is that going to Tired doesn't have much, if any, effect on accuracy, just stops you hitting Fast, which is a consideration.

[stealthsilent1]

Absolutely. Yes. Move Slowly in any building where the enemy can see the building.Very. In buildings, if you move Slow, give very tight target arcs and Hide at the end, you can remain unobserved across even quite narrow streets. If you "Quick"ed in the same position you'd get spotted immediately. Behind vegetation, at least prior to the proliferation of IR vision aids, you can pretty much consider Slow to be as hard to spot as static troops, plus Slow keeps them on their bellies. In addition, Slow moving troops will retain much of their situational awareness, as long as there's not something solid they can't see over from their crawling posture.Not as much as being dead or not having reached your firing point in time. My assessment is that going to Tired doesn't have much, if any, effect on accuracy, just stops you hitting Fast, which is a consideration.

ok so if there is a 3 story building. I can quick cammand to the outside of the building then quick command to the second floor, then slow command to the last floor, or does it need to be slow command all the way up? Also, when I'm crawling, I don't notice crap, my head is to the ground. How are they still aware of what's going on, it's nonsense.

[AttorneyAtWar]

ok so if there is a 3 story building. I can quick cammand to the outside of the building then quick command to the second floor, then slow command to the last floor, or does it need to be slow command all the way up? Also, when I'm crawling, I don't notice crap, my head is to the ground. How are they still aware of what's going on, it's nonsense.

 

It all depends on what the enemy can see, if he can see the first floor, second and third than yes you would want to slow all the way up, if he can only see the third than you only need to do it for the 2nd-3rd. It all depends on the situation, if your that worried about it crawl the whole way!

 

As for not being able to see while crawling...you can just not as well, not sure why you think you can't see ANYTHING.

[stealthsilent1]

It all depends on what the enemy can see, if he can see the first floor, second and third than yes you would want to slow all the way up, if he can only see the third than you only need to do it for the 2nd-3rd. It all depends on the situation, if your that worried about it crawl the whole way!

 

As for not being able to see while crawling...you can just not as well, not sure why you think you can't see ANYTHING.

i mean, crawling is hard, and it's easier to crawl if you got your face to the floor. But I get it now, they can see your troops moving in a building.

[Justicar]

If they weren`t spotted on the way in, you don`t even have to tell units to hide. Just give them a target arc where they won`t engage anything.

Usually they won`t be spotted unless the enemy is very close, or they start firing out of the windows.

[womble]

Also, when I'm crawling, I don't notice crap, my head is to the ground. How are they still aware of what's going on, it's nonsense.

Please. Please, please, please stop overthinking the game. It is a team level game with the elements of that team explicitly modelled. It is not an individual level game with all the activities of every individual explicitly modelled. Sometimes the tech allows the modelling to trickle down to the individual actions. It's the height of folly to expect every single aspect of the game to be depicted on the micro level. Note that the movement mode is called "Slow" not "Crawl"; it might behoove you to wonder whether that's because they're not crawling with their face to the floor and failing to keep an eye out. I've done my share of sneaking about in the woodlands and stealthy movement has a huge element of "knowing where the enemy are so you can stay out of their sight" situational awareness required. Slow troops maintain their situational awareness somehow and the exact mechanics are a) unimportant, and therefore below the abstraction layer.

Remember the abstraction layer? I've mentioned it to you before. Please stop and think "Is this too detailed and dealt with below the abstraction layer," it'll save you asking a lot of questions where that's the primary answer.

[womble]

If they weren`t spotted on the way in, you don`t even have to tell units to hide. Just give them a target arc where they won`t engage anything.

Usually they won`t be spotted unless the enemy is very close, or they start firing out of the windows.

It's the "very close" situations where I've found Hide can help. Often. It's not perfect, but it can mean an extra team manages to get into position before the game is up and you have to tell everyone to go all "Mad Minute" on whoever spotted the last team in...

A downside of using Hide is that they will often not be able to spot out of the building, so you just have to "unhide" them and let them spot naturally and choose their own targets. You have to be judicious in its use.

[stealthsilent1]

Please. Please, please, please stop overthinking the game. It is a team level game with the elements of that team explicitly modelled. It is not an individual level game with all the activities of every individual explicitly modelled. Sometimes the tech allows the modelling to trickle down to the individual actions. It's the height of folly to expect every single aspect of the game to be depicted on the micro level. Note that the movement mode is called "Slow" not "Crawl"; it might behoove you to wonder whether that's because they're not crawling with their face to the floor and failing to keep an eye out. I've done my share of sneaking about in the woodlands and stealthy movement has a huge element of "knowing where the enemy are so you can stay out of their sight" situational awareness required. Slow troops maintain their situational awareness somehow and the exact mechanics are a) unimportant, and therefore below the abstraction layer.Remember the abstraction layer? I've mentioned it to you before. Please stop and think "Is this too detailed and dealt with below the abstraction layer," it'll save you asking a lot of questions where that's the primary answer.

but you're just writing off things that don't make sense to the abstraction layer. Maybe you've got a point, but I can't see it. But that's exactly what you said right now. "It helps to know where the enemy is when you're crawling" or whatever. That's Exactly what I said in my hiding post. That when they hide, doesn't it help to know where the guys are around you, instead of hiding without looking. Maybe the mechanics aren't important, but the results are, especially if they don't make sense in the bigger picture. I don't see the bigger picture, I'm just tripping along in the dark, but I want to see it.

[AttorneyAtWar]

but you're just writing off things that don't make sense to the abstraction layer. Maybe you've got a point, but I can't see it. But that's exactly what you said right now. "It helps to know where the enemy is when you're crawling" or whatever. That's Exactly what I said in my hiding post. That when they hide, doesn't it help to know where the guys are around you, instead of hiding without looking. Maybe the mechanics aren't important, but the results are, especially if they don't make sense in the bigger picture. I don't see the bigger picture, I'm just tripping along in the dark, but I want to see it.

 

You are really confusing me now, what exactly do you have a problem with that involves the hiding and crawling command, I am going to break it down simply how they both work.

 

"Hide"- Units will hug the dirt or whatever cover they are behind, this is an abstraction, while they are laying down it could mean they are pressed against a wall, occasionally someone will take a peak, while this command is active spotting is signifcantly reduced and they will not fire on enemies unless immediately threatened.

 

"Slow"- Units will creep (Move slowly, staying low, whatever you want it to mean, they are taking there time) across terrain, this command makes them tire very quickly as it is taxing to move prone like that, situational awareness is reduced due to there proximity to the ground, however they are harder to spot.

 

Womble is absolutely right, you are taking everything way to literally, there is no game on the planet that can model the things you want it to.

[stealthsilent1]

You are really confusing me now, what exactly do you have a problem with that involves the hiding and crawling command, I am going to break it down simply how they both work.

 

"Hide"- Units will hug the dirt or whatever cover they are behind, this is an abstraction, while they are laying down it could mean they are pressed against a wall, occasionally someone will take a peak, while this command is active spotting is signifcantly reduced and they will not fire on enemies unless immediately threatened.

 

"Slow"- Units will creep (Move slowly, staying low, whatever you want it to mean, they are taking there time) across terrain, this command makes them tire very quickly as it is taxing to move prone like that, situational awareness is reduced due to there proximity to the ground, however they are harder to spot.

 

Womble is absolutely right, you are taking everything way to literally, there is no game on the planet that can model the things you want it to.

i just have a problem with the reduced situational awareness on the hide command. It doesn't make sense in all situations.

[AttorneyAtWar]

i just have a problem with the reduced situational awareness on the hide command. It doesn't make sense in all situations.

 

I am still lost, in what situation does this command not make sense?

[stealthsilent1]

I am still lost, in what situation does this command not make sense?

ok so what if you're in open ground with the hide command. How does that work? I know it's a concept, but the concept doesn't always work.

[AttorneyAtWar]

ok so what if you're in open ground with the hide command. How does that work? I know it's a concept, but the concept doesn't always work.

 

I think you need to play the game more if that doesn't make sense to you, once again its an abstraction, they are hugging the ground in whatever tiny indent in the ground they can and occasionally someone will pop there head up to look even in open ground. If it makes you feel any better, it is certainly easier to spot hiding units in open ground, so I suggest not putting your troops in a situation like that, I have no idea what else to tell you.

[stealthsilent1]

I think you need to play the game more if that doesn't make sense to you, once again its an abstraction, they are hugging the ground in whatever tiny indent in the ground they can and occasionally someone will pop there head up to look even in open ground. If it makes you feel any better, it is certainly easier to spot hiding units in open ground, so I suggest not putting your troops in a situation like that, I have no idea what else to tell you.

the decreased situational awareness, just doesn't work in every situation and is just a general model, it's a good model, I'm not saying it's bad, but it just doesn't work all the time.

[AttorneyAtWar]

the decreased situational awareness, just doesn't work in every situation and is just a general model, it's a good model, I'm not saying it's bad, but it just doesn't work all the time.

 

Once again, I have no idea what you are talking about, in what situation is decreased situational awareness "not working all the time". There are no absolutes in war, there are no absolutes in CM because it is modeling that very thing, sometimes a hiding unit can see something, sometimes it can't, its as simple as that. In real life do soldiers always see what was around them when they were hiding? no, plenty died never knowing what hit them, that's reality.

[Wicky]

 

 

ok so what if you're in open ground with the hide command. How does that work?

Wouldn't it be preferable in a game of hide & seek to hide in cover rather than in the open...

 

Admittedly if you have to attack a machine gun over open ground with other infantry then while your hiding/ laying low then you'll be less of target while others take the brunt / can repond with fire.  When as they go to ground you can dash forward - rinse and repeat till you ID the source of your misery and you get close enough to gain fire supremacy and eventually overwhelm the MG (and yes there'll will be casualties).   There are a series of very well crafted CMBB training scenarios that allowed the game player to practice various game playing methods to achieve different objectives.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Wicky

[stealthsilent1]

Once again, I have no idea what you are talking about, in what situation is decreased situational awareness "not working all the time". There are no absolutes in war, there are no absolutes in CM because it is modeling that very thing, sometimes a hiding unit can see something, sometimes it can't, its as simple as that. In real life do soldiers always see what was around them when they were hiding? no, plenty died never knowing what hit them, that's reality.

i was thinking of a specific example where that model would make sense. Like a parking lot. And that it doesn't account to "the loss" of situational awareness, I'm not saying the guy was perfect, but the reduction of seeing what's infront of him is confusing, why? My example doesn't work in a place where he could hide, because he could just hide better and not pay attention to the enemy, but if there is no place TO hide, then what? How does the model handle in a situation like that?

[stealthsilent1]

Wouldn't it be preferable in a game of hide & seek to hide in cover rather than in the open...

 

Admittedly if you have to attack a machine gun over open ground with other infantry then while your hiding/ laying low then you'll be less of target while others take the brunt / can repond with fire.  When as they go to ground you can dash forward - rinse and repeat till you ID the source of your misery and you get close enough to gain fire supremacy and eventually overwhelm the MG (and yes there'll will be casualties).   There are a series of very well crafted CMBB training scenarios that allowed the game player to practice various game playing methods to achieve different objectives.

yes, but can't you see where a situation could be in that they are in an urban area, and one unit is on the covered arc command, I'm not saying if it's practical or not, of course it isn't, but my question is about... Something, maybe that the hiding command needs to be accuate to dictate the whole game in every scenario. Like the law of gravity.

[AttorneyAtWar]

i was thinking of a specific example where that model would make sense. Like a parking lot. And that it doesn't account to "the loss" of situational awareness, I'm not saying the guy was perfect, but the reduction of seeing what's infront of him is confusing, why? My example doesn't work in a place where he could hide, because he could just hide better and not pay attention to the enemy, but if there is no place TO hide, then what? How does the model handle in a situation like that?

 

Ok, Ill say it again, after this I am done. Even in the open (In a parking lot for your example) that unit will attempt to find cover in the AS, parking lots are lacking in the cover department so a hide would be useless, now why in the hell you would be hiding units in an open parking lot is behind me, the answer to this "problem" you have is to not hide units in open parking lots. I have no idea what else to tell you, don't mistake this for being angry, but if you can't understand that its a bad decision to even have units in that position (so much so that should never happen) than yeah...