What is the point of an unmounted hmg on the modern battlefield?

[stealthsilent1]

Which is not entirely surprising since—if I understand correctly—the round was originally developed in WW I as an anti-armor round.

 

Michael

yea but if he isn't using apc's or he doesn't hide in buildings, there is no point using them on foot.

[stealthsilent1]

The dismounted .50 cal MG is not normally assigned to US formations in Black Sea. However, the humvees belonging to Assault platoons in the Infantry battalions can dismount their .50cals and Mk.19s if desired. One good example is to be able to lug the weapon into a building... kinda hard to squeeze a Humvee in there!

true dat. It says deployment time is 11 seconds. How much longer will it take to set up in a building, and is a machine gun in a building with a cover arc easy to spot?

[ChrisND]

true dat. It says deployment time is 11 seconds. How much longer will it take to set up in a building, and is a machine gun in a building with a cover arc easy to spot?

 

All heavy weapons that need a Deploy command take longer to Deploy in buildings. A generalized abstraction of the fact that the crew can't plop the weapon down on the floor and shoot it, in order to get a line of fire they need to prepare a position for it, either by propping up stable furniture to shoot out a window or they need to knock a hole for it to shoot out of, or etc.

 

Like any other unit, an MG with a cover arc won't be intrinsically easier or harder to spot than a normal unit, although it if isn't shooting due to the cover arc that is going to make it significantly harder to detect. But that's due to holding fire, not any bonus granted from the cover arc.

[stealthsilent1]

All heavy weapons that need a Deploy command take longer to Deploy in buildings. A generalized abstraction of the fact that the crew can't plop the weapon down on the floor and shoot it, in order to get a line of fire they need to prepare a position for it, either by propping up stable furniture to shoot out a window or they need to knock a hole for it to shoot out of, or etc.

 

Like any other unit, an MG with a cover arc won't be intrinsically easier or harder to spot than a normal unit, although it if isn't shooting due to the cover arc that is going to make it significantly harder to detect. But that's due to holding fire, not any bonus granted from the cover arc.

of course

[womble]

yea but if he isn't using apc's or he doesn't hide in buildings, there is no point using them on foot.

Apart from the range and hitting power and the fact that if he isn't using APCs or hiding behind cover, you are the luckiest bastidge ever to have to hold a position since the end of the "Colonial Wars" era of Zulu and "fuzzy-wuzzies" and dervishes and other oppressed indigenes with a technology disadvantage and surfeit of courage.

[Martin S]

Just read about the battle of Wanat/COP kahler. Basically the troops got into a massive and closerange firefight, resulting in a profligate expenditure of ammunition to the point where everything failed. M4, 249, 240, mk19 were all jamming, either constantly or permanently. The only thing reliably firing throughout that battle were the brownings.

Probably the greatest testament to the genius of JMB and the M2s continued usefullness as a tripod mounted HMG.

[stealthsilent1]

Apart from the range and hitting power and the fact that if he isn't using APCs or hiding behind cover, you are the luckiest bastidge ever to have to hold a position since the end of the "Colonial Wars" era of Zulu and "fuzzy-wuzzies" and dervishes and other oppressed indigenes with a technology disadvantage and surfeit of courage.

when you talk about range, you're not talking about total range right? You're talking about accuracy at the same range, since it HMG is on a tripod, it is more stable, so it shoots more accurate over the same distance than a MMG would, is that what you're saying? To me, if it's not near a humble, it's just too heavy to be useful. It's a target once it starts shooting, and you can't pop it in and out at different places as easy so you lose that element of surprise. To me. It's not worth it. Just use more MMGs than 1 HMG.

[Justicar]

when you talk about range, you're not talking about total range right? You're talking about accuracy at the same range, since it HMG is on a tripod, it is more stable, so it shoots more accurate over the same distance than a MMG would, is that what you're saying? To me, if it's not near a humble, it's just too heavy to be useful. It's a target once it starts shooting, and you can't pop it in and out at different places as easy so you lose that element of surprise. To me. It's not worth it. Just use more MMGs than 1 HMG.

With a HMG you can engage from BEYOND ranges of what any small arm or mmg could hope to return fire. Thats the advantage, its a big round going very far that hurts very much.

[stealthsilent1]

With a HMG you can engage from BEYOND ranges of what any small arm or mmg could hope to return fire. Thats the advantage, its a big round going very far that hurts very much.

i mean the advantage it has is it could get into buildings and light vehicles. I'd still say MMG on foot is more useful

[womble]

i mean the advantage it has is it could get into buildings and light vehicles. I'd still say MMG on foot is more useful

They are different tools for different jobs. If you have to maneuver on foot, you'd choose the MMG most of the time. That's true in WW2 as well; I don't recall seeing any unit with organic .50Cal HMGs at any level up to Battalion; Maxim-type .30cal pieces, yes, but they're significantly lighter and even then don't do a lot of actual maneuvering in the face of the enemy. If you're setting up the defenses of somewhere like Camp Bastion, and you have the choice of Ma Deuce or GPMG on your sentry towers, you take Mr Browning's monster and accept the extra lifting required to put the ammo up the towers; that way you outrange anything the Talis have.

You're missing the point, also, that getting through building walls and light armour is a huge advantage and an engagement that has neither hard cover nor vehicle support is going to be a rare one. The Afghan Mujahideen took russian 12.7mm pieces up himalayan goat tracks to the peaks of ridges between valleys so they could shoot downwards at Hind gunships, which were proof against that calibre from below. That's hauling heavy gear up steep inclines at altitude. It's that useful sometimes.

[stealthsilent1]

They are different tools for different jobs. If you have to maneuver on foot, you'd choose the MMG most of the time. That's true in WW2 as well; I don't recall seeing any unit with organic .50Cal HMGs at any level up to Battalion; Maxim-type .30cal pieces, yes, but they're significantly lighter and even then don't do a lot of actual maneuvering in the face of the enemy. If you're setting up the defenses of somewhere like Camp Bastion, and you have the choice of Ma Deuce or GPMG on your sentry towers, you take Mr Browning's monster and accept the extra lifting required to put the ammo up the towers; that way you outrange anything the Talis have.You're missing the point, also, that getting through building walls and light armour is a huge advantage and an engagement that has neither hard cover nor vehicle support is going to be a rare one. The Afghan Mujahideen took russian 12.7mm pieces up himalayan goat tracks to the peaks of ridges between valleys so they could shoot downwards at Hind gunships, which were proof against that calibre from below. That's hauling heavy gear up steep inclines at altitude. It's that useful sometimes.

i think you're right, they are useful because there are a lot of light vehicles and buildings. And it is a tool, just like everything.

[Na Vaske]

when you talk about range, you're not talking about total range right? You're talking about accuracy at the same range, since it HMG is on a tripod, it is more stable, so it shoots more accurate over the same distance than a MMG would, is that what you're saying? To me, if it's not near a humble, it's just too heavy to be useful. It's a target once it starts shooting, and you can't pop it in and out at different places as easy so you lose that element of surprise. To me. It's not worth it. Just use more MMGs than 1 HMG.

 

MMGs also have tripods, the AG carries it.  MMGs are a crew weapon.

[stealthsilent1]

MMGs also have tripods, the AG carries it.  MMGs are a crew weapon.

so they can be just as stable. I guess it's then a choice if you think there are buildings and light vehicles or not

[Apocal]

Just read about the battle of Wanat/COP kahler. Basically the troops got into a massive and closerange firefight, resulting in a profligate expenditure of ammunition to the point where everything failed. M4, 249, 240, mk19 were all jamming, either constantly or permanently. The only thing reliably firing throughout that battle were the brownings.

Probably the greatest testament to the genius of JMB and the M2s continued usefullness as a tripod mounted HMG.

 

There was only one functioning Browning throughout most of the fight; the other had been knocked out by machine gun fire within the first five minutes. Same story with the TOW and one each of mortar, Mk19 and M240. AFAIK, none of the M240s jammed up: one was unmanned due to its gun team being shot from under it, one ran out totally of ammo and the last one (with the Marine advisors) stayed in action throughout the fight.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Apocal

[dan/california]

Just read about the battle of Wanat/COP kahler. Basically the troops got into a massive and closerange firefight, resulting in a profligate expenditure of ammunition to the point where everything failed. M4, 249, 240, mk19 were all jamming, either constantly or permanently. The only thing reliably firing throughout that battle were the brownings.

Probably the greatest testament to the genius of JMB and the M2s continued usefullness as a tripod mounted HMG.

Everyone on that godforsaken peace of dirt deserved the MOH, but both the senior people  present and the higher level officers involved deserved a very nasty note in the file for getting caught that way though.  The fact that the officer in command died heroically made some of the aftermath simpler.

[LukeFF]

i think you're right, they are useful because there are a lot of light vehicles and buildings. And it is a tool, just like everything.

 

He is right. 

[Splinty]

The Ma Deuce is a superb HMG. Any weapon you can keep firing with a quart of motor oil is worth it's weight in gold in a fire fight.

[MikeyD]

One thing CMBS will teach you is not to sit in a position for too long. If your HMG holed a couple APCs and suppressed some distant infantry in a building its job is done. Better to bug on out the back door before they bring up their tanks or ATGM launchers, set up in another location.

[stealthsilent1]

One thing CMBS will teach you is not to sit in a position for too long. If your HMG holed a couple APCs and suppressed some distant infantry in a building its job is done. Better to bug on out the back door before they bring up their tanks or ATGM launchers, set up in another location.

true dat