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Problems with spotting


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I could use some tips on spotting I guess, because today completely was frustrating to the point I ran some tests on spotting.

 

Was on the last Scenario of the German Campaign.. "Crushing the 3rd tank Army" I believe is the name.

 

I don't have a problem finishing, It was just some strange things that had me wondering do Optics mean anything in the game.

 

1.  Left flank I have pretty much two platoons on Hunt crawling to positions between buildings and somewhat blocked by trees.. they are unbuttoned.

   A.  I had completely obliterated the wooded areas near the main roads in preparation... and used smoke, prior to my Panthers advance.

   B.  Smoke has disappeared.. infantry has no problem spotting various enemy contacts.....

   C.  Gun fight ensues..... Soviet tanks (Soviet tanks were buttoned) achieve first round hits..  Hitting on the first shot 70 percent of the time while buttoned...   German tanks have stopped.. return fire missing all first rounds, Veteran crews vs Regular  out of the 5 Panthers two are Veteran, and 3 Regular.. no problem

 

Next salvo.. Panther gun and optics gone.... another Panther gets 2 hits in the mantlet... Optics.. gun gone... 3  Remaining Panthers take out one of the T-34/85's

 

3 Panthers can not see the tanks firing at them... they stay unbuttoned.... One Panther the next turn sees a T-34 but does not engage... the T-34 shoots it 4 times in a minute without any return fire.. and destroys the Panthers Optics and gun in that order...  Soviet crew was Regular and buttoned.. German crew was Veteran and unbuttoned.

 

I Quit the game to see what the frack was going on in front of the Germans.. who are all blind as bats.

 

So in the end there were 3 Soviet T-34's shooting at I believe the 5 German tanks.. at ranges of 1700 plus meters.. I think it was about 1740-1750m

 

I know this is beating a dead horse, but are the optics that fragile in German tanks... and the main gun?  Or was this just extremely poor luck.. the combat was right in front.. no flanking tanks... basically they were shooting straight at each other.  Soviet tanks were buttoned.. and the German tanks were not.

 

Last question.. do optics mean anything in game.. or is it just another thing to destroy as fluff on the tanks?

 

I ran tests buttoned and unbuttoned vs each other... and it seemed.... Russians had slight edge on first round hits no matter if they were buttoned or not buttoned.. could just be a weird day.. but I finished a six pack of Heineken and called it a day.

 

Any tips?

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Screenshots always help in these cases, but off the top of my head - if your tanks were in trees and the enemy were not - remember that tanks are substantially higher up than your infantry and this can often put their heads in amongst the foliage.

 

If you have trees toggled to "trunks only", turn them back on, then hop your camera view down to the tanks and see if you can see what they cannot.

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Screenshots always help in these cases, but off the top of my head - if your tanks were in trees and the enemy were not - remember that tanks are substantially higher up than your infantry and this can often put their heads in amongst the foliage.

 

If you have trees toggled to "trunks only", turn them back on, then hop your camera view down to the tanks and see if you can see what they cannot.

I got that point.... my point is that the Russian tanks were all buttoned up in a tree line.  The Panthers were not in amongst the trees but pretty much behind a low wall.. there was only a sparse amount of trees between the Panthers and the T-34/85's  

 

My issue is with the Russian tanks in Trees buttoned vs Panthers not buttoned.. and the crazy first shot hits the Soviets achieve at 1700+ meters with Regular Crews... vs at least tested with 2 Veteran German crews who could barely hit the broad side of a barn.

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GhostRider3/3

 

You are not alone in raising concerns about the spotting mechanics in this game, and the one you specifically mention....unbuttoned German tanks vs Russian tanks...was one I had already raised a few months back.  I have experienced the unbuttoned stationary German tanks in essentially an ambush position failing to spot advancing Russian tanks that spot and fire at the German tanks as if the laws of LOS and spotting do not apply to both tanks equally.

 

Your test findings do nothing to dispel these concerns.

Edited by Lt Bull
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That's more of an anecdote than a test. When I test spotting I abtain dozens of data points for each side at a minimum, sometimes hundreds if the differences are not large. Spotting is very random so anecdotal evidence is of limited usefulness.

 

Buttoned/unbuttoned affects spotting but not accuracy.

 

Optics also affect spotting. It is unknown if they affect accuracy. Well, unknown to anyone but Charles, I suppose. They also break a lot. This is realistic. They are made of glass :P

Edited by Vanir Ausf B
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That's more of an anecdote than a test. When I test spotting I abtain dozens of data points for each side at a minimum, sometimes hundreds if the differences are not large. Spotting is very random so anecdotal evidence is of limited usefulness.

 

Buttoned/unbuttoned affects spotting but not accuracy.

 

Optics also affect spotting. It is unknown if they affect accuracy. Well, unknown to anyone but Charles, I suppose. They also break a lot. This is realistic. They are made of glass :P

Thank you for your posts,

 

I was just a bit dumbfounded when I had a German tank unbuttoned take 4-5 hits.... stayed unbuttoned and was "OK"  never suppressed.. and not once returned fire.  I could not replicate this in doing 20 tests in open ground at the same distance of 1740 meters. using the same crew types.

 

Anyways its like beating a dead horse.. lol the game is great.. has some quirks.. and some strange AI issues from time to time.. but I am not complaining.. just thought it was uncanny at best.  I am finding most of the maps are meta-gamed to the defense... which makes sense vs AI as it makes you think more and think of options.

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Another thing to consider is movement.  I think, form reading your post, that your Panthers were moving forward while the T34s were waiting.  I would expect that tanks sitting still at the edge of a treeline facing some open ground would spot moving tanks coming towards them much easier than the other way around.  Buttoned or un buttoned I think the advantage of being still in overwatch vs the disadvantage of moving would trump the TC's position.

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Another thing to consider is movement.  I think, form reading your post, that your Panthers were moving forward while the T34s were waiting.  I would expect that tanks sitting still at the edge of a treeline facing some open ground would spot moving tanks coming towards them much easier than the other way around.  Buttoned or un buttoned I think the advantage of being still in overwatch vs the disadvantage of moving would trump the TC's position.

Yes it should be.  I had the Panthers in Overwatch myself for 15 minutes.. they could see contacts in the wood line, the area was blasted beyond belief.  I went back to look at the map more closely and the way it is formed and where the enemy tanks are positioned are perfect, you would think a commander using binocular's  would be able to spot better, but again not complaining.  I did do about 30 tests  of tanks on the move buttoned and unbuttoned and stationary.... it is what it is.

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I encountered the same problem many times. I suspect it is always a little bit  subjective opinion of the one who lost the tank ;) But it really happens too often. My last time was beyond anything I could imagine. 

 

Look below. It is the situation. Marder had armored fire arc order exactly covering the way the ISU came in. The ISU was moving. Marder stood in the place for couple minutes in ambush. ISU was also under fire by the infantry nearby the marder. 

 

cmrt-marder-1.png

 

And this is how it was seen from my marder (come on blind man...):

 

cmrt-marder-2.png

 

Needless to say that after a while ISU decided to shorten the life of those fools in the Marder...

Edited by mochodek
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I encountered the same problem many times. I suspect it is always a little bit  subjective opinion of the one who lost the tank ;) But it really happens too often. My last time was beyond anything I could imagine. 

 

Look below. It is the situation. Marder had armored fire arc order exactly covering the way the ISU came in. The ISU was moving. Marder stood in the place for couple minutes in ambush. ISU was also under fire by the infantry nearby the marder. 

 

cmrt-marder-1.png

 

And this is how it was seen from my marder (come on blind man...):

 

cmrt-marder-2.png

 

Needless to say that after a while ISU decided to shorten the life of those fools in the Marder...

Excellent.... well at least I know strange things happen to others.  I really need to figure out how to take screen shots... too bad about your Veteran Marder crew, the ISU should have been buttoned up and possibly suppressed abit.  But from what I hear there should be no penalties if they still have their optics, but then sometimes I wonder what the optics does in game?

 

Does it create a radius 360 degree around the tank, then if the optics are damaged it is a penalty modifier, I know when your buttoned the view usually would be a 90-180 degree in front of the tank.. could be wrong, would be nice to know how that works... but an open vehicle like the Marder etc, unless suppressed should be able to see very well.

Edited by GhostRider3/3
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I know this is beating a dead horse, but are the optics that fragile in German tanks... and the main gun?  Or was this just extremely poor luck.. the combat was right in front.. no flanking tanks... basically they were shooting straight at each other.  Soviet tanks were buttoned.. and the German tanks were not.

 

 

Optics are mounted in the mantle so large calibre strikes on the mantle can damage them. This is only a noticed issue if your mantlet armour is thick enough vs the guns it faces that the worse thing that happens is the sight breaks up due to non penetrating hits.

 

Hamptmann Bollert OC, I abt, Pz reg 2, report 9-19 October 1943 : The telescopes of the T.Z.F 12 gun sights break apart as a result of hits on the gun mantlet. The expenditure of protective lens for the T.F.Z 12 is very high. ( 1995 Jentz pg 138).

 

There's a reason why gunsights tend to be roof mounted nowadays. Note one of the features of the proposed series production Panther schmalturm was a periscope gun sight, so they knew there was a design flaw in mounting sights in the gun mantlet.

 

The long 7,5cm was also recorded to have been put out of action by AT rifle penetrators bulging the interior of the barrel rendering it inoperable.

Edited by Bastables
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I encountered the same problem many times. I suspect it is always a little bit  subjective opinion of the one who lost the tank ;) But it really happens too often. My last time was beyond anything I could imagine.

Yeah, the complains do come when people loose the duel.

 

Look below. It is the situation. Marder had armored fire arc order exactly covering the way the ISU came in. The ISU was moving. Marder stood in the place for couple minutes in ambush. ISU was also under fire by the infantry nearby the marder. 

 

Needless to say that after a while ISU decided to shorten the life of those fools in the Marder...

Yuck, that does look unfortunate for sure. How long was the ISU in view? Turn the trees on and see if any surprises show up. I can no longer count the number of times turning the tress on made my complaint go away.

On the face of it this is an unexpected outcome. The thing is, even when there is no game issue you still *will* see sucky things like this happen because the simulation is for combat conditions not the firing range.

But bugs do happen. Can you answer the additional questions and do you have a saved game? Because CM is not deterministic to see if there really is a bug we would have to run this situation (from a calculating turn) a number of times. What I would expect is that the Marder would get the first shot most of the time. If it was the one getting hit first repeatedly then we might say something is off. But if it gets hit once in 10 tries then - it's just a sad day for the Marder crew.

Bugs aside (no actually bugs included), the more you embrace the chaos and just curse the loss and move on, the happier you will be. That is what CM is simulating the chaos of battle so just include these kinds of WTF (why the face) moments as part of the chaos and exact your revenge another way or another day:).

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Problem a spotting with each part of the CMx2 are this is particularly evident at small distances <100m. Here is a small example of what is going on, sometimes it is difficult to play.
 
BFC should look into this problem because the detection of a few seconds later the enemy at a distance of 500m is not the same as not detect it at a distance of 30m.
Such peculiar situation is more and this film is made with my current PBEM game.
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It's the dead of night. Tanks don't use headlights. It's raining, so it's harder to hear exactly where the tank is. While theoretical maximum visibility is into the edge of the vegetation, the illumination conditions are such that "the tank came roaring out of the night". I.e. the spotting rolls were failed by the pTruppen. Also, the thing is moving very fast, so it's going to travel a fair distance between spotting checks, even though closer interactions are checked more often than the "default" 7s. The tank vanished from view immediately because the infantry went to ground in long grass (because they were on Hunt), and so lost sight of it once it was a few metres away.

Note that the tank didn't see the infantry at all, as far as we can tell. No fire, no turret rotation... It's night time.

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After reading posts here for a while now, nearly four years, one thing I think I am seeing is that people are miss understanding the difference between "I have spotted something" and "I could spot something".

I am not picking on @mirekm61 his post just reminded me about it - again - and I thought I would post it in a spotting thread.

The game's spotting method shows you things that have been fully spotted and (via the ? family of icons) things your soldiers are aware of. It does not show you units that are in plain view. That is not what spotting means. Just because you have a squad crossing a street and there is a tank sitting in the open four blocks away, it does not automatically follow that the infantry will spot the tank instantly. Sorry, real life just does not work that way. Yes, I would expect the infantry to see the tank very quickly, most of the time. It would probably be very close to instant in this case, much of the time. But really there could be times when they don't see it for a few moments. Hell if they are running from building to building I could even understand that they don't see it at all.

Think about it. How many times have you been with people who are try to get you to look at something and the thing is plain sight and you just don't get it right away. It is not that the object is hidden or something. What's wrong with you? Answer nothing at all. It is that people's brains do *not* register ever thing they see every minute they are awake. People are just like that.

What? Is @ian.leslie insane you say? Well no, at least I don't think so. Don't get me wrong if the infantry crossing the street never ever spotted a tank that close in the open after repeating the test 100 times - yeah that would be a bug. But missing it sometimes is not a bug (there could be some debate about where the line is sure). It is called bad luck. **** happens. You stepped in that salty slushy puddle in the parking lot you did not notice on your way into work. Wow, you suck, that puddle was in plain view what's wrong with you. Everyone should have been able to see that. Naw, that is just how our brains works. You were thinking about that other car as it drove down the aisle looking for a parking space and missed the puddle right in front of you. Or back to our story you were paying attention to the building you and your mates were about to enter. Are there any bad guys upstairs? Are there any in the building next door. Who is going to get to the door first? Should I take a position to look in the window before we go in? Or should I look down the street instead.

Sure there are game limitations when units are in close proximity and the spotting system uses has cycles that can cause some surprises. The end result is at least plausible the vast, vast majority of the time. My advice is when it’s not just move on and chalk it up to **** happens. If you really want, after it happens a few times by all means recreate the environment and see if it is repeatable and what kind of variation you see. It could be a bug, it is possible.

Bottom line "but my unit has clear LOS, look at the nice light blue line, it should have seen X" is not a bug. It is a feature.

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The problem boils down to what you would see at a distance> 100m and what to 20m. For longer distances, then I do not have any objections, otherwise the case looks like we have something under his breath and did not see it. So in this case, the guys barely managed to dodge to the side SU85 appeared on 2sec.
After all, at small distances we everything better and faster.
I get the feeling that the process of view is identical irrespective of distance which is probably not a good solution.
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The problem boils down to what you would see at a distance> 100m and what to 20m.

<snip>

I get the feeling that the process of view is identical irrespective of distance which is probably not a good solution.

There is a game limitation when units are very close that is true. It used to be that the spotting cycle was the same for far away and close encounters but that has been changed. Now spotting is checked more frequently when units are close. It made a definite improvement.

However, regarding the example above: in the dark and the rain, I do not think there is a bug there. I think it would be quite possible to stumble upon the opposition without much warning under those conditions. Other than the game limitation that soldiers don't get hurt when tanks run over them it seemed quite possible to me.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Continued this same battle as above few turns further

 

I send another video of the night fighting now is even more interesting than the last.
In one place you can lead gunfire area 100m a few meters away already at 3 m do not see anything. Come to the conclusion that either the infantry with orders hund has limited ability to observe or the game has a bug. It's hard to explain it differently to notice the tank located about 3 m apart was needed until the 90s.
Interestingly tank moved, fired but it did not help to see.
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