leakyD Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 After seeing the "over use" of BMP/Bradley ATGM use in the Beta AAR, I had to get some clarity. If there is supporting evidence of "generous" use of IFV ATGM as SOP for US/RU/UKR forces (hell, I'll take any army at this point), then someone smack me on the head with it. If not, then this will need to be tweaked prior to ship. Bradley & BMP3 (haven't seen BMP2 use, yet - is this a bug specific to BMP3/Bradley?). Otherwise there are going to be some SERIOUS tactical issues with IFV overuse of ATGM. This will be especially important when facing APS equipped vehicles. NO Beta AAR SPOILERS here, as it'd be great to get Bill's/Pzrldr's opinions/views here. Can any Dev's chime in here? Yes, stop eating leftovers and chime in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) as noted in another thread I did just have occasion for a Bradley to use it's 25mm (yes 25 mm, I got it right this time) to take out 3 Russian tanks that it was able to target at close range from side/rear. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about behavior at this juncture and with such little data to work from. Edited December 27, 2014 by sburke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Well in the AAR game my BMP 3s fire 30mm a lot... the ATGMs have been quite few in number in comparison. Scott's BMP 2s have tended to fire ATGM more than 30mm.. but they do use their 30mm guns.. most notably in the killing of my MTLB in 2nd MRC. Also, Scott's Bradley CFV only fired its gun at my T90.. no TOWs were fired.. not sure if I was inside its minimum range or not (probably not). So I am not sure there is a problem here at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 Not detracting from your observation, however, this is a beta build. I'm not sure if Bil and Scott are using the latest build or not. (Frequently, as the builds progress, saved games cannot be used. In an AAR, a restart would not be possible, so they may be using an earlier build.) As part of the beta process, TacAI gets looked at...a lot. Issues such as overuse of ATGM's rather than autocannon would be a prime item to look at and tweak. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted December 27, 2014 Author Share Posted December 27, 2014 Thanks gents! I can understand battlefield stress/errors, but if one is fighting APS equipped enemy, I would think the radio would be buzzing with updates so gunners/commanders knew what to look out for, and use appropriate tactics/ammo accordingly. And thanks c3k for BETA reminder. I'll quit knee-jerking now and promptly STFU. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnzrldr Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 No, you are right. The Bradley is routinely selecting TOW for BMP-3s, when 25mm would be more appropriate, as I have seen both against Bil and in other playtesting. I have posted this for the game design crew lead's attention (which may or may not result in a fix - if you have a case of South African wine, I can give you a PO box to ship it to. Might help). Ken, feel free to jump on my mantis. This may be due to a near undermatch of 25mm against BMP3 front with reactive armor, but I tend to think the solution is simply fire more 25mm. I've got friends who killed T-72s (with crews in them!) from the front with 25mm in 03. Older export models, but still MBTs through the front. Mostly turret top/slope and hatches, driver hatch, turret ring, gun mount, and actual gun penetrations. Just hold down the triggers until the thing burns. 20 rounds in six seconds. I suspect that the BMP-3 would have a hard time taking the pounding. FWIW though, his T-90 that will (in a few turns on my thread) eat LT Upham's lunch, is indeed inside the TOW's min range. Also, the issue with beta builds that had us working behind the current product got fixed. Our posts are using the Beta16 build, which is the latest right now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 No, you are right. The Bradley is routinely selecting TOW for BMP-3s, when 25mm would be more appropriate, as I have seen both against Bil and in other playtesting. I have posted this for the game design crew lead's attention (which may or may not result in a fix - if you have a case of South African wine, I can give you a PO box to ship it to. Might help). Ken, feel free to jump on my mantis. Haha! Good to hear. Wine for "features", eh? That's a nice business model... Where do I sign up? This may be due to a near undermatch of 25mm against BMP3 front with reactive armor, but I tend to think the solution is simply fire more 25mm. I've got friends who killed T-72s (with crews in them!) from the front with 25mm in 03. Older export models, but still MBTs through the front. Mostly turret top/slope and hatches, driver hatch, turret ring, gun mount, and actual gun penetrations. Just hold down the triggers until the thing burns. 20 rounds in six seconds. I suspect that the BMP-3 would have a hard time taking the pounding. Note to self: Hose target until all variables eliminated. Can do! FWIW though, his T-90 that will (in a few turns on my thread) eat LT Upham's lunch, is indeed inside the TOW's min range. Also, the issue with beta builds that had us working behind the current product got fixed. Our posts are using the Beta16 build, which is the latest right now. Nice! Glad to see the push to January release is allowing for fine-tuning.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMS Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 I agree, BMP use ATGM too often since CM:SF. BMP-1 could kill a Stryker with a gun, but always used Spigot. Though distance was small, 500-700m. Same for BMP-2. Then gunner started to reaload turning out of the hatch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I agree, BMP use ATGM too often since CM:SF. BMP-1 could kill a Stryker with a gun, but always used Spigot. Though distance was small, 500-700m. Same for BMP-2. Then gunner started to reaload turning out of the hatch. Interesting observation. I thought the BMP3's we're using too much 100mm ATGM, but Bill (and sburke) say no, so I'll defer to their in-game experience. I'm sure we'll all get to see how this plays out soon enough at release Worst case, I'm sure vehicle ATGM can be tweaked in an update, should the need permit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Interesting observation. I thought the BMP3's we're using too much 100mm ATGM, but Bill (and sburke) say no, so I'll defer to their in-game experience. I'm sure we'll all get to see how this plays out soon enough at release Worst case, I'm sure vehicle ATGM can be tweaked in an update, should the need permit. It hasn't been my experience, but the variables involved could bend that in different circumstances. My experience so far has not led me to even consider that. I have had Brads use TOWs at long range against tanks and get kills and I have seen a lot of short range use of the 25mm. It could be Russian AFV behavior is different. It is worth a look to be sure. I do know I have been on the receiving end of a fair amount of BMP 30mm fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Bear in mind that the TacAI is omniscient regarding terminal effects on armor (but not countermeasures). This leads to natural behaviors in some circumstances (not firing a round that has zero chance of penetration at current aspect angle and range over and over again), but odd behaviors in others (choosing ammunition with higher penetration with total disregard to countermeasures and reaction times). My guess is that versus BMP-3 front, the Tac-AI compares chance of penetration of a single auto-cannon round and a single ATGM and often goes with the ATGM. This of course ignores the cumulative chance of kill of multiple auto-cannon rounds in the same time it takes to aim and fire an ATGM and the chance that the ATGM could be outright "killed" by some form of countermeasure. In some circumstances it is the right behavior, in others not. Anyways, this has already been tweaked once and greatly improved. I'm sure it can be tweaked more, but we should not pretend it is a simple issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 My guess is that versus BMP-3 front, the Tac-AI compares chance of penetration of a single auto-cannon round and a single ATGM and often goes with the ATGM. This of course ignores the cumulative chance of kill of multiple auto-cannon rounds in the same time it takes to aim and fire an ATGM and the chance that the ATGM could be outright "killed" by some form of countermeasure. In some circumstances it is the right behavior, in others not. Ugh. Hopefully these adjustments aren't too much of a programming nightmare. Who the hell fires single rounds, or even single bursts, of 25/30mm autocanon? It seems all the videos show multiple bursts when these weapons are used. Even Pzrldr stated "best practice" is to hold trigger until target burns. This isn't a day at the range, folks. Hopefully further adjustments can be made without any negative effects.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Ugh. Hopefully these adjustments aren't too much of a programming nightmare. Who the hell fires single rounds, or even single bursts, of 25/30mm autocanon? It seems all the videos show multiple bursts when these weapons are used. Even Pzrldr stated "best practice" is to hold trigger until target burns. This isn't a day at the range, folks. Hopefully further adjustments can be made without any negative effects.... He did not say it fires single rounds, it doesn't. He was simply saying the TAC AI might do it's math on the characteristics of a single round. I don't think we really know for sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 He was simply saying the TAC AI might do it's math on the characteristics of a single round. I don't think we really know for sure. WHAT?!? We are at the mercy of the "Ghost in The Machine" (AI) BFC, please fix or.... well, y'know... the usual... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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