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Audgisil

Why the second rate aircraft?

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...But the idea that Russia will just willy nilly throw around WMD (including chem) is just silly...

Agree with everything you said, but one thing to keep in mind is that Putin's decisions are just scary enough that he might *not* think it's silly, regardless of what his people would tell him.

Ya' never know...

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Agree with everything you said, but one thing to keep in mind is that Putin's decisions are just scary enough that he might *not* think it's silly, regardless of what his people would tell him.

Ya' never know...

No, this is more.. I don't even know the word for it, the idea of what Putin's actions would be or the kind of things he does gets greatly exaggerated and sometimes things are just said and believed because you know, he's Putin - of course he is a mainaical crazy man twirling his mustache waiting to nuke the world...

The truth about Putin and the way things work in my country are people like him are concerned about their personal power. Toss a nuke and his power is gone. Really being president is a show off thing for him. He's not an idiot and he is not going to destroy his kingdom by throwing a hissy fit and launching nukes, certainly not over Ukraine.

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So Putin, in late August, implicitly threatening to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear nations including Ukraine and the Baltic States was just 'trash talking' and speaking out of his nether quarters and is not really meaning anything by it?

Cause it is just trash talk, right? Funny that, when a Russian leader speaks so and the West shouldn't take him at face value.

Odd that, that everyone should believe him on everything else but his comments about using nuclear weapons should be discounted because, well, that is just plain crazy talk...

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The truth about Putin and the way things work in my country are people like him are concerned about their personal power. Toss a nuke and his power is gone. Really being president is a show off thing for him. He's not an idiot and he is not going to destroy his kingdom by throwing a hissy fit and launching nukes, certainly not over Ukraine.

I agree, that is my impression of Putin as well. He is very rational when in comes to increasing or maintaining his personal power.

Odd that, that everyone should believe him on everything else but his comments about using nuclear weapons should be discounted because, well, that is just plain crazy talk...

First, you should never believe anything anybody says about something important without reflecting about it - no matter if it is Putin or somebody else. Secondly, when Putin talks about using nuclear weapons, it is not trash, it is just a threat. He does not want to start a war with NATO, nor does he want to use nuclear weapons, he just wants to remind his opponents that he has the option to push the red button. It is a bit of game like "look, i have the bigger gun".

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He's not an idiot

Really? Totally trashing his country's economy for a foray into Ukraine wasn't the sign of an idiot? Huh. Not fixing his country 's economic state when he had the chance and instead doubling down on the corruption level wasn't the sign of an idiot? Finding fake artifacts in the Black Sea wasn't the sign of an idiot? Well okay may be he isn't. But he also isn't exactly bright either.

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I agree, that is my impression of Putin as well. He is very rational when in comes to increasing or maintaining his personal power.

First, you should never believe anything anybody says about something important without reflecting about it - no matter if it is Putin or somebody else. Secondly, when Putin talks about using nuclear weapons, it is not trash, it is just a threat. He does not want to start a war with NATO, nor does he want to use nuclear weapons, he just wants to remind his opponents that he has the option to push the red button. It is a bit of game like "look, i have the bigger gun".

I guess he wasn't smart enough to understand that using that threat just made it very clear we needed to draw the line in the sand now We actually have the bigger gun, we can bankrupt him without using a missile.

Putin is essentially a bully at the head of the Russian state, that doesn't make him smart, it just makes him a bully. And a bully who is weaker than he realizes.

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Putin maybe an idiot, but then he is a politician, I look at the U.S. President/Congress tripping over each other like Keystone cops and you wonder if intelligence is a hindrance when you are in politics. ;)

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Putin maybe an idiot, but then he is a politician, I look at the U.S. President/Congress tripping over each other like Keystone cops and you wonder if intelligence is a hindrance when you are in politics. ;)

Hmm good point. Intelligence and morals seem to be the first things you need to discard. Partly our own fault as voters, we vote on our self interest so as long as they seem to cater to that...

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...The truth about Putin and the way things work in my country are people like him are concerned about their personal power. Toss a nuke and his power is gone. Really being president is a show off thing for him. He's not an idiot and he is not going to destroy his kingdom by throwing a hissy fit and launching nukes, certainly not over Ukraine.

I'd just like to say that it's very refreshing to have an international rival for power again whose desired rewards are in THIS life.

I'm really, really tired of having international rivals for power whose rewards are in the next life.

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In reality, war with NATO over Ukraine is not worth the consequences much the same for NATO.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said here. No one (neither US nor Russia) will risk a direct military confrontation of any kind in a foreseeable future. That's how the nuclear deterrent works. And no, no one is going to be "crazy enough" to try out that principle in practice. That's not how the world works; otherwise none of us would be alive by now.

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I'd just like to say that it's very refreshing to have an international rival for power again whose desired rewards are in THIS life.

I'm really, really tired of having international rivals for power whose rewards are in the next life.

Yeah fact checking is a helluva lot easier too. bank accounts versus the hereafter hmmmmm

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That's pretty much all that needs to be said here. No one (neither US nor Russia) will risk a direct military confrontation of any kind in a foreseeable future. That's how the nuclear deterrent works. And no, no one is going to be "crazy enough" to try out that principle in practice. That's not how the world works; otherwise none of us would be alive by now.

That is how the world has worked, however when you have a guy at the helm with no good checks and balances and his playbook has run so bad he is now working without one and left himself with no plan B..... Mistakes happen. He keeps pushing everyone with air and sea space violations and making it difficult to figure his intent sooner or later someone is going to f**k up. Then whoever is left can talk about how if only ........

Case in point was a civilian airliner almost struck by a Russian fighter. One amongst dozens of incidents lately of Russia routinely pushing the limits of everyone's patience. Brinksmanship is never a good thing. As the economic situation in Russia continues to decline and Putin is left with fewer and fewer options who is to say he won't gamble on something we would currently consider totally reckless. Isn't like he hasn't already done that.

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-russian-fighter-plane-nearly-collided-with-a-swedish-passenger-jet-last-march-2014-11

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I believe that if we're going to talk about the likelihood of Russian resort to nuclear weapons in Ukraine, it might be a good idea to look at actual Cold War-fall of the Soviet Union thinking, doctrine, analyses, leader reactions and other pertinent matters--to include radioactive fallout--from that side of the fence. Pp. 22 et seq should prove most enlightening, especially to those of you never exposed to such things.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb285/doc02_I_ch3.pdf

Full interview with General-Colonel (Retired) Andrian A. Danilevitch, General Staff Officer 1964-1990, and that's but the first item in his rather stunning military assignments. Unless you consider honchoing the General Staff collective which wrote the TOP SECRET three-volume set of books Strategy and Deep Operations (Global and Theater)--the basic reference document for such matters through at least the last decade of the Soviet Union--not to be germane to this discussion. He ranked as a three star. Page 29 is especially instructive, in that it presents what the General Staff concluded were rational uses of nuclear weapons, even factoring in such vital considerations as nuclear winter.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb285/vol%20iI%20Danilevich.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

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That is how the world has worked, however when you have a guy at the helm with no good checks and balances and his playbook has run so bad he is now working without one and left himself with no plan B..... Mistakes happen. He keeps pushing everyone with air and sea space violations and making it difficult to figure his intent sooner or later someone is going to f**k up. Then whoever is left can talk about how if only ........

Case in point was a civilian airliner almost struck by a Russian fighter. One amongst dozens of incidents lately of Russia routinely pushing the limits of everyone's patience. Brinksmanship is never a good thing. As the economic situation in Russia continues to decline and Putin is left with fewer and fewer options who is to say he won't gamble on something we would currently consider totally reckless. Isn't like he hasn't already done that.

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-russian-fighter-plane-nearly-collided-with-a-swedish-passenger-jet-last-march-2014-11

This is turning into another political discussion that I simply refuse to take part in on in this forum. Sorry, but I not the one to who cares to carry a debate about the evils and madness of Putin/Obama/Merrel/Castro/Assad/Charlie Sheen/Octomom or any other media personality...

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...he just wants to remind his opponents that he has the option to push the red button. It is a bit of game like "look, i have the bigger gun".

The trouble with that—and it applies not just to Putin—is when he gets pushed into a corner and is faced with the choice of pushing the button or losing face. So far, the world's leaders have backed away from the deadly option and maybe Putin would to. But I'd rest a bit easier if that option were to be taken off the board completely, and not just for him.

Michael

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Those green wheels so don't belong there. Ukrainian military better hire some gay designer to set color harmony rules. Oh wait, planes would become pink then. ;)

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