Is the A-10 still viable for modern CAS?

[dan/california]

F-35 has some great capabilities.

F-35 has some incredible limitations.

F-35 has some very high costs.

Mix the above as needed to come out with your preferred result.

Sometimes cheap weapons are just a waste of money.

Sometimes expensive weapons are just a waste of money.

I personally would love to see a more robust version of the A1 Skyraider resurrected. 8 hours endurance, massive lift capability, shade-tree mechanic repairs, etc. However, it would only be useful in low intensity conflict. (Or one where air superiority/supremecy exists.)

Predator/Reaper class drones are doing the Skyraider mission all day long now. You can argue for a higher payload version. No manned one or two seat manned aircraft is going to have 24 plus hours on station, though, and the bigger drones have that now.

[MikeyD]

Skyrocketing costs is a factor (are a factor?). If the enemy gets lucky and manages to nail a passing B2 bomber that roughly a $1.3 billion hit, for F-22 its roughly a third of a billion. I recall when an F117 stealth fighter was downed over Serbia. That incident had reverberations in the Pentagon far greater than the loss of a single light bomber.

[dan/california]

The man in the loop/pilot in the cockpit is important in situations where something unexpected develops requiring a split second decision to do something unplanned. I don't know how often that will occur in future wars, but I am pretty sure it won't be rare.

Michael

The question is will the pilot be so busy dealing with threats to his own well being that he cannot make a a meaningful contribution to whats happening on the ground, beyond confirming the nine line and releasing the weapon. Indeed their has been an unpleasant incident or two when the pilot was unable to discern that the FAC had uploaded his own position instead of the target's. I am not saying the pilot didn't follow procedure, but if they can't flag that I am not sure they have the situational awareness to help.

[Skwabie]

Exactly. The US military has long been in the position of acquiring aircraft on a "one size fits all" basis, where we end up with a jack of all trades but master of none. So far we have gotten away with it because we haven't had to come up against an opponent who would seriously stress that system. But some day we may need to fight an air force that has heavily invested in aircraft that are optimized to perform specific missions just a little be better than anything we can field, and this could lead to serious embarrassment and excess shedding of US blood.

Michael

Michael Emrys, the jack of all trades logic actually makes sense. Scientific advances are a given, but more importantly it saves cost. Principally it is no different than using a single type of main battle rifle for your entire army. Logistics, support, training etc can all be streamlined. When put into operations it means more numbers available for a required task, be it AA or AG. Tactically it means mission flexibility. There've been cases where CAP aircraft diverted to make gun runs to support ground troops or strike aircraft jetting their bombs to fending off enemy fighters. The lines between aircraft types will get more and more blurry for sure in the future.

Granted in the cold war days, the huge budget allows using different aircraft types but now money really is the limiting factor. You'd rather spend it developing the entire "network" instead of single "nodes". Combined arms is really not only for land warfare but a universal concept.

The question is will the pilot be so busy dealing with threats to his own well being that he cannot make a a meaningful contribution to whats happening on the ground, beyond confirming the nine line and releasing the weapon. Indeed their has been an unpleasant incident or two when the pilot was unable to discern that the FAC had uploaded his own position instead of the target's. I am not saying the pilot didn't follow procedure, but if they can't flag that I am not sure they have the situational awareness to help.

Oh haha snap! This is a good one, looks like a classic human error at its best. You'd think with the Link16 and whatnot the whole 9-line procedure can be greatly expedited but then this happens... Something needs to be done to prevent it. Is there a link for the actual event or does it belong to the hush hush?...

[argie]

Exactly. The US military has long been in the position of acquiring aircraft on a "one size fits all" basis, where we end up with a jack of all trades but master of none. So far we have gotten away with it because we haven't had to come up against an opponent who would seriously stress that system. But some day we may need to fight an air force that has heavily invested in aircraft that are optimized to perform specific missions just a little be better than anything we can field, and this could lead to serious embarrassment and excess shedding of US blood.

Michael

That already happened in the beginning of Nam with the fixation on jets. Only later the A-1 resurrected and the OV-10 was deployed.

[dan/california]

Michael Emrys, the jack of all trades logic actually makes sense. Scientific advances are a given, but more importantly it saves cost. Principally it is no different than using a single type of main battle rifle for your entire army. Logistics, support, training etc can all be streamlined. When put into operations it means more numbers available for a required task, be it AA or AG. Tactically it means mission flexibility. There've been cases where CAP aircraft diverted to make gun runs to support ground troops or strike aircraft jetting their bombs to fending off enemy fighters. The lines between aircraft types will get more and more blurry for sure in the future.

Granted in the cold war days, the huge budget allows using different aircraft types but now money really is the limiting factor. You'd rather spend it developing the entire "network" instead of single "nodes". Combined arms is really not only for land warfare but a universal concept.

Oh haha snap! This is a good one, looks like a classic human error at its best. You'd think with the Link16 and whatnot the whole 9-line procedure can be greatly expedited but then this happens... Something needs to be done to prevent it. Is there a link for the actual event or does it belong to the hush hush?...

I have no access to hush-hush whatsoever. Will try google-fu where I read it before bed.

[Michael Emrys]

I have no access to hush-hush whatsoever. Will try google-fu where I read it before bed.

There was a story in the newspapers back in the early '80s where something like this happened in Afghanistan. But the way it read then, it appeared that the guy on the ground mistakenly sent his own coordinates instead of the target's. In other words, not the pilot's responsibility. If the papers got that version of the story wrong, it won't have been the first time, but until now I've come across no other. I suppose it might not be the kind of thing the government wants talked about a whole lot.

Michael

[JonS]

Oh haha snap! This is a good one, looks like a classic human error at its best. You'd think with the Link16 and whatnot the whole 9-line procedure can be greatly expedited but then this happens... Something needs to be done to prevent it. Is there a link for the actual event or does it belong to the hush hush?...

It happened in the early days of the US invasion of Afghanistan, on 5 December 2001. The batteries on the doohickie went flat at exactly the wrong time (an example of poor battle prep, right there), and in the heat of the moment dude forgot that when it powered up the unit would reset to it's current actual location, rather than the last indicated target location. Fast forward a few minutes and he - and a large group of friends - got to say 'hello' to Mr. JDAM dropped from a B-52. I can't imagine that the B-52 crew were especially busy, or stressed, or have much concern for their own safety. But by the same token I doubt they had much greater situational awareness than you'd be able to get from - say - the 17th Reconnaissance Squadron's control room at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada.

See:

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA506423

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA417327

[agusto]

It happened in the early days of the US invasion of Afghanistan, on 5 December 2001. The batteries on the doohickie went flat at exactly the wrong time (an example of poor battle prep, right there), and in the heat of the moment dude forgot that when it powered up the unit would reset to it's current actual location, rather than the last indicated target location. Fast forward a few minutes and he - and a large group of friends - got to say 'hello' to Mr. JDAM dropped from a B-52. I can't imagine that the B-52 crew were especially busy, or stressed, or have much concern for their own safety. But by the same token I doubt they had much greater situational awareness than you'd be able to get from - say - the 17th Reconnaissance Squadron's control room at Creech Air Force Base in Nevada.

See:

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA506423

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA417327

That is almost worth a Darwin Award. I kinda can imagine the answear, but were there any casualties?

BTW the link you posted dont work for me. I get "Error - Request Denied, please try again."

[Skwabie]

2001...B-52

Thanks for the info JonS.

It is understandable for me as B-52 doesn't even have a targeting pod, so it's ability to independently identify targets is rather limited. They later did hang a Sniper TGP on the B-1 Lancer and apparently for good reason...

If the pilot looked at his TGP imagery thought nothing of it and pickled it woulda meant a bigger system f*ck up i reckon.

[c3k]

Predator/Reaper class drones are doing the Skyraider mission all day long now. You can argue for a higher payload version. No manned one or two seat manned aircraft is going to have 24 plus hours on station, though, and the bigger drones have that now.

Not even close. I can launch a blimp with longer endurance. That doesn't make it better. The drones carry VERY limited numbers of VERY limited munitions. How many wounded can a drone pull out. (Skyraiders could, and did, carry 3 or more men in the cavernous fuselage. Not designed for it, and they just settled on ribs, but it worked.) Need a gun-run? No drone. Want to improve SA by dropping lower? Not with a drone. Maneuver away from ground fire to enhance survivability but still get the ordnance on target? Not with a drone. Guns, cannon, big bombs, little bombs, rockets, smoke, ATGM's? Not with a drone.

Great vid exists of Apaches using Hellfires to kill a 4 (?) man team. Open area near a town. It took 6 Hellfires and only dropped 3. Direct hits and the guys would keep running. (Sure, maybe they were wounded...but who cares if they are firing at our guys? If they can still shoot, they're still in the fight.) That's SIX Hellfires. The kind of weaponry drones are so famous for. Sure, they can knock out a pickup truck. Great. Who's in it? Etc. Intel is needed.

A platoon in contact: you want a drone or a skyraider? Yeah.

It's incomparable.

[Na Vaske]

Thanks for the info JonS.

It is understandable for me as B-52 doesn't even have a targeting pod, so it's ability to independently identify targets is rather limited. They later did hang a Sniper TGP on the B-1 Lancer and apparently for good reason...

If the pilot looked at his TGP imagery thought nothing of it and pickled it woulda meant a bigger system f*ck up i reckon.

The B-52 has integrated use of the Sniper since 2013 and before that had the LITENING II pod starting in the mid 00's, the same time B-1 was fitted with the Sniper pod.

[akd]

Not even close. I can launch a blimp with longer endurance. That doesn't make it better. The drones carry VERY limited numbers of VERY limited munitions. How many wounded can a drone pull out. (Skyraiders could, and did, carry 3 or more men in the cavernous fuselage. Not designed for it, and they just settled on ribs, but it worked.) Need a gun-run? No drone. Want to improve SA by dropping lower? Not with a drone. Maneuver away from ground fire to enhance survivability but still get the ordnance on target? Not with a drone. Guns, cannon, big bombs, little bombs, rockets, smoke, ATGM's? Not with a drone.

Great vid exists of Apaches using Hellfires to kill a 4 (?) man team. Open area near a town. It took 6 Hellfires and only dropped 3. Direct hits and the guys would keep running. (Sure, maybe they were wounded...but who cares if they are firing at our guys? If they can still shoot, they're still in the fight.) That's SIX Hellfires. The kind of weaponry drones are so famous for. Sure, they can knock out a pickup truck. Great. Who's in it? Etc. Intel is needed.

A platoon in contact: you want a drone or a skyraider? Yeah.

It's incomparable.

Pound for pound, UAS can carry more ordnance than piloted aircraft and do so with many times more endurance.

[Skwabie]

had the LITENING II pod starting in the mid 00's

Are you sure they had it in that fratricide incident... Earliest report I got with Buff's Litening use is 2003ish.

[Michael Emrys]

Are you sure they had it in that fratricide incident... Earliest report I got with Buff's Litening use is 2003ish.

And that is two years after the incident that Jon reported...which I believe is the same incident I had in mind. At least the timing is right.

Michael

[Buzz]

Pound for pound, UAS can carry more ordnance than piloted aircraft and do so with many times more endurance.

-AKD

Yep..... Ultimately we will see fewer pilots in aircraft. I think we all know this. Nostalgia is a strong force when relating to equipment / tools / etc. I would hate to see the A-10 cast off as useless but in today's air environment it is less survivable.

Then the PR when a human pilot is KO'd vs ... some "Evil Drone" gets KO'd.

I do wonder what may happen when the "Evil Drone" gets hacked and returns to MaMa with a full payload.

Michael.Sorry to distract ... Briefly... the local PD gets lots of military equipment they don't 'need' for local policing. They are not going to be offered an A-10 but if they were .... I am positive the boys / end users would jump up and down ... because they want one. I mean who would not want an A-10 ... they could play with? The PD managers could not afford nor justify an A-10 but they would get the boys clamoring for whatever Uncle Sam is ready to donate.

[Sgt Joch]

Pound for pound, UAS can carry more ordnance than piloted aircraft and do so with many times more endurance.

Probably yes when there is no air defences, but a typical drone like the MQ-1C is bigger than a WW2 fighter and only slightly faster than a WW1 fighter. They have a way to go before they can survive against modern air defense systems.

[db_zero]

When the A-10 first came out it was expected to play a part rolling back the hordes of Soviet tank rolling through the Fulda Gap. I would hardly consider that a permissive threat environment. You saw images of A-10s with ALQ-131 ecm pods on the outer pylons and 2 or 4 AIM-9L for air to air threats. So the air force expected them to be operating in a high threat environment.

Budget considerations is probably a driving force behind the decisions, but we have a new congress who will be changing the powerful committee members so don't be surprised if the tell the AF otherwise and the A-10 sticks around.

[dan/california]

http://www.wired.com/2014/09/armys-new-laser-cannon-blasts-drones-out-of-the-sky-even-in-fog/

I am not saying this tech is going to be ready by 2017, but by 2025 its going to different out there. When and if this thing works it is going to knock down small medium drones like it was an arcade game. At least as importantly, while I ams sure the system price will be eye popping, the cost per shot is trivial and your only logistical burden is diesel. The sky has spent the last decade or more getting more and more crowded, that trend is going to reverse, at least over real battles.

[Na Vaske]

Are you sure they had it in that fratricide incident... Earliest report I got with Buff's Litening use is 2003ish.

I never said it was, in fact I know it wasn't. I was just replying to the statement 'the B-52 doesn't even carry a targeting pod' in the present tense.

[tdogg]

You guys should go fly Dcs A-10c, that thing is so well done I feel like I almost have first hand experience with the real aircraft, ironic that it also takes place in the Black Sea.

The a-10 will always have a place in the modern battlefield, the key to its success in the Black Sea is combined platform support. Meaning that a-10s aren't going to go free roaming like the Middle East, they are supported buy f-15e / f-35 doing sead missions, with f-15c/f-16/and f-22 doing air superiority missions. You would also have apaches in low to take out the shilkas and strelas.

Sure we might take some hits from a man pad, but the a-10 is the best aircraft to absorb a manpad hit.

They keep talking about retiring the a-10, but in the end it's cheeper to give it another upgrade and keep it in service. By 2018 in wouldn't be shocked to see it upgraded to D model with carries JSOW stand off weapons.

When this aircraft is truely retired in another 20 years, it will hold the title of greatest CAS aircraft of all time, an icon.

[Der Zeitgeist]

BTW, the JDAM incident you guys were referring to happened during the battle of Qala-i-Jangi, the POW uprising in an old fortress near Mazar-e-Sharif in November 2001. It was one of the first large ground engagements with US troops involved, and it was also the battle where CIA agent Mike Spann was killed during the interrogation of John Walker Lindh, the "American Taliban", as he was called at the time.

The whole battle was pretty prominently featured in the media at that time, as there were all kinds of western TV crews roaming around there, while British SAS and CIA guys were arriving in white pickup trucks. I think one of the CIA operators actually gave some kind of interview while carrying an AK and identifying himself with a first name, it was pretty crazy. :cool: I can still remember watching it on German TV, as there was a camera crew from our ARD station actually taking cover on the ramparts of the fortress with Northern Alliance guys and US soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division, while US Bombers were dropping JDAMs inside the fortress. There's one sequence that actually shows everyone covering from the bomb fragmentation passing above them.

There's still a lot of videos on YouTube from that battle, some of them also show the misdirected JDAM strike that killed some Northern Alliance soldiers and injured a few US troops, I think.

[Duckman]

It's a classic case of conflicting priorities and missions. The A-10 is great for colonial policing and third world show of force, i.e. the main missions for the US (and most other militaries) both historically and today. But against first or even second world opponents it is probably quite vulnerable. 

 

So which war do you buy equipment for? The statistically most likely or the worst-case one? It's not an easy question, and you might even be better off with two air forces or letting the army operate its own A10s, Super Tucanos, Cessnas, helicopters, and UAVs.

[Michael Emrys]

It's a classic case of conflicting priorities and missions. The A-10 is great for colonial policing and third world show of force, i.e. the main missions for the US (and most other militaries) both historically and today. But against first or even second world opponents it is probably quite vulnerable.

 

Agreed.

 

So which war do you buy equipment for? The statistically most likely or the worst-case one? It's not an easy question, and you might even be better off with two air forces or letting the army operate its own A10s, Super Tucanos, Cessnas, helicopters, and UAVs.

 

That would be my choice. It works for the Marines, so why not let the Army do it as well? Problem is, the service bureaucracies seem to be stuck in the Key West Agreement forever.

 

Michael

[Wildman]

The marines are limited in scope and projection and still rely on the Navy for air superiority. That is the difference. CAS is not a true core AF mission....interdiction is preferred as more effective and less chance of friendly Fire.