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CM Black Sea - Beta Battle Report - US/UKR Side

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What? You have Jav teams on map? I can't say that anyone's SEEN any Jav goodness. Oh, wait: you must've taken a page out of my book and told your men to "Fix Javelins" and charge the tanks, a la WWII Japanese anti-tank tactics. Yeah, that must be it... ;)

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Skwabie,

Urgently suggest you either recaption or blur it out. This is a direct violation of Forum Rules. Easy to get swept up in the emotional story here, but I'd prefer you not become collateral damage!

Basic Rules

2. No foul language, even if it isn't directed at an individual. Foul language is, of course, a relative concept since what is offensive to one is not necessarily offensive to all. Members that use common sense will not find themselves in violation.

Regards,

John Kettler

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I'm loving it - it really adds to the atmosphere, and if you are enjoying it too - great! You're adding a lot of detail from a serving officer's point of view, which really helps in understanding modern tactics.

Please keep up the story. most enjoyable and educational at the same time.

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I've been greatly enjoying both AARs and their divergent styles. I actually enjoy the narrative style; reminds everyone that all those pixels you move into MG and HE fire are supposed to be repesenting human lives (c3K, ;) you widowmaker you). Battlefront certainly knows how to shift units with their Beta Testers, all this showcasing has my cash practically floating out of my wallet.

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Widowmaker? Hah! Far better to make sad, but proud, pixelwidows, than to allow my men to slouch back home to their wives who will henpeck them and chip away at their manhood whilst simultaneously packing on the pounds until my pixeltruppen yearn for an opportunity to achieve glory in combat.

A proud widow is far more happy than a chubby shrew.

I bring them joy.

Now bring me more turns!

;)

Edited by c3k

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Frankly, I am getting little bit worried about QB balance. I can easily see a situation where russian player does not have real winning change because prices are nearly equal but equipment quality is inferior to NATO armies. Keep in mind that, at least to some extent, Quick Battle equals cherry picking. Single mispriced item (Javelin?) would kill the game balance totally. I am sure russia will buy Leopard 2 tanks and Javelins in near future. Just to make game balanced.

 

Pnzldr will be perfect test subject if he get decent opportunity to use his tanks.

 

  Edited by jep

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Frankly, I am getting little bit worried about QB balance. I can easily see a situation where russian player does not have real winning change because prices are nearly equal

 

 

They're not nearly equal.

 

Also, this AAR is a premade scenario, not a Quick Battle.

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Stephen - I am cursing you for making me wait so long for my US guys.  I am about 5 turns behind on post right now, as work for me accelerates heading into Christmas.  We have our HQ Xmas party today, so I am off ~ 1500.  Will PROMISE the masses a new post today - half way done already - that will include a high angle vertical update from Speed/Power as they approach the battlefield.

 

At the turn I am at Bil has just completed destruction of the last 2 BMP-2s in UKR 3d Company.  Some brave heroics on the part of the mech boys, but not much to show for it.  Tunguska's continue to rock, but now Bil is shooting HIS TGs at ME!  Garp!  Still 5 minutes to go until US arrives, and I expect Bil will literally be sitting smack on their arrival points.  I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking? 

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I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking? 

 

I think that on this particular occasion you were simply out-generaled. From here it looks like Bil might have made a better estimation of the situation and responded aggressively to it. Everything seems to have followed from that. But don't lose heart. One of the traits of the truly great generals is the ability to pull victory out of a seemingly hopeless situation and I wouldn't even go so far as to declare your situation hopeless yet. Grim, but not hopeless. "Fortune smiles on the brave."

 

Michael

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Use your Sten gunners!! Oh, wait, that was my plan. ;)

 

Generalship: in this battle, I believe it has already been stated, both Scott and Bil have already played through as the opposing side. Knowing your enemy's forces, timing, and objectives is a HUGE bonus and has nothing to do with generalship. How might it have played, were it entered blind? Having grappled with Bil, I feel comfortable saying that I have no doubt he would not have attacked in this manner if he didn't have foreknowledge.

 

 

5 minutes for reinforcements? Perfect. That leaves time for at least 2 attacks. :)

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Generalship: in this battle, I believe it has already been stated, both Scott and Bil have already played through as the opposing side.

 

Really? I got the opposite impression. I guess it might be time to go back to the opening posts.

 

Michael

 

Found this in Scott's #26, which may be what you are thinking of:

 

 

 

The first CM:BS alpha match we started, he took UKR and I took RUS.

 

But of course that does not mean that it was this scenario. In fact, since it was back in the alpha days, I think we can assume the opposite.

Edited by Michael Emrys

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....Still 5 minutes to go until US arrives, and I expect Bil will literally be sitting smack on their arrival points.  I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking? 

 

Map edges are necessary abstractions for wargames. But I would not expect Bil to be as ungentlemanly to sit on your arrival points with guns cocked!

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....Still 5 minutes to go until US arrives, and I expect Bil will literally be sitting smack on their arrival points.  I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking? 

 

Map edges are necessary abstractions for wargames. But I would not expect Bil to be as ungentlemanly to sit on your arrival points with guns cocked!

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Really? I got the opposite impression. I guess it might be time to go back to the opening posts.

 

Michael

 

Found this in Scott's #26, which may be what you are thinking of:

 

 

But of course that does not mean that it was this scenario. In fact, since it was back in the alpha days, I think we can assume the opposite.

Well, far be it from me to tell you what you can assume. I may well have been thinking of something from the secret beta forums. Or not.

Shrug.

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Stephen - I am cursing you for making me wait so long for my US guys.  I am about 5 turns behind on post right now, as work for me accelerates heading into Christmas.  We have our HQ Xmas party today, so I am off ~ 1500.  Will PROMISE the masses a new post today - half way done already - that will include a high angle vertical update from Speed/Power as they approach the battlefield.

 

At the turn I am at Bil has just completed destruction of the last 2 BMP-2s in UKR 3d Company.  Some brave heroics on the part of the mech boys, but not much to show for it.  Tunguska's continue to rock, but now Bil is shooting HIS TGs at ME!  Garp!  Still 5 minutes to go until US arrives, and I expect Bil will literally be sitting smack on their arrival points.  I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking?

Wait, did I hear that right? We are on the edge of our seats and you are going to a Christmas party. Where are your priorities man!

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Stephen - I am cursing you for making me wait so long for my US guys.  I am about 5 turns behind on post right now, as work for me accelerates heading into Christmas.  We have our HQ Xmas party today, so I am off ~ 1500.  Will PROMISE the masses a new post today - half way done already - that will include a high angle vertical update from Speed/Power as they approach the battlefield.

 

At the turn I am at Bil has just completed destruction of the last 2 BMP-2s in UKR 3d Company.  Some brave heroics on the part of the mech boys, but not much to show for it.  Tunguska's continue to rock, but now Bil is shooting HIS TGs at ME!  Garp!  Still 5 minutes to go until US arrives, and I expect Bil will literally be sitting smack on their arrival points.  I have no combat power left at all, outside of what is in Krichek.  What were you guys thinking? 

Perhaps your contributions of beer and snacks to the secret beta fridge have been inadequate?  Or, if I may channel Putin just a little bit  "Its a CONSPIRACY against the Motherland, a conspiracy i tell you".

 

Or perhaps the scenario designer just made something of the same error you mentioned in terms of failing to think the battle thru from Bills perspective.  I am not even sure the engine can do this, but an objective that he had to take in the town in the first 15 minutes would have changed the way things played a lot. 

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I am not even sure the engine can do this, but an objective that he had to take in the town in the first 15 minutes...

Sadly, time-sensitive VCs aren't within the scenario-maker's toolbox (hopefully "yet"). It's been mentioned before that they'd potentially make for interesting situations, though the incidence of moaning about any time limit at all suggests that any designer actually employing such a mechanism risks a pitchfork and torch-bearing baying mob at his castle gates.

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I played Bil in a QB on an entirely different map (strangely, it turns out is was a heavily converted version of the one I did in CMRT for Beutezug - painful how long it took me to recognize it!).  I took the Russians, he took the UKR.  He had BMP2s and those funny UKR MTLB chassis w/ the 30mm RWS.  I was also prescient enough to grab some dismounted ATGM teams.  I ate his lunch.  Like, game over at turn 20.  Not his fault, as the BMP3 overmatched everything he had on the map and I had several of them.  The spotting disparity of the BMP2 versus... well anything, is pretty stark.  

 

Fail to see how I was out general'ed here though.  I have (had) a single UKR mech company, 3 UKR 120mm mortar tubes (no precision rounds, and apparently inaccurate as hell) and half a US scout platoon against 2 full MRC's plus of the latest vehicles our friend Putin possesses, with ~ 8 ish T-90s and (so far) 2 supporting Tunguskas, plus artillery.  I had one available ATGM, a Jav which started the game in the back of a Brad with no people in it.  Okay, I missed it during setup.  I'll cop to that error.  But even with it, I can think of no conceivable terrain or scenario in which my force mix gives Bil a challenging fight.  In what universe does a US Scout platoon leader outrun his artillery support, when he is anticipating contact?  If I had been given the full PLT, with 3 Brads, 4 Javs, and access to the FA BN and UAS from the gitgo, this would have been a different write up.  

 

Okay, whine complete.  Its all academic when the Abrams finally roll on anyway.  I suspect I can manage to lose half of them in the first 30 seconds.  If half survive for 2 turns, Bil will have a hard time. If all of them make it that far, I think I will win decisively. Would be nice if a good portion of the INF make it too of course, since Bil is no slouch.  Would love to have 16 JAV teams running around magically blasting his tracks. Guess we'll see what happens.  

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That Jav might have been the turning point of the entire thing, at least till this point.  Not because it represents enough combat power to matter much, but if you had popped the very first track that showed itself Bill might, and the maybe here must be emphasized, have been scared to just run over you the way he did.  Clearly the balance of combat power on the board meant he could if just went for it, which he did.  And map edges have been a problem since the invention of wargaming more or less.  You can't just pull your scout platoon back onto their support the way you obviously would in the real world.  It probably didn't help that the engine was barely ready to assemble the scenario when you guys started the AAR, I suspect testing was limited, at best.

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Okay, whine complete.  Its all academic when the Abrams finally roll on anyway.  I suspect I can manage to lose half of them in the first 30 seconds.  If half survive for 2 turns, Bil will have a hard time. If all of them make it that far, I think I will win decisively. Would be nice if a good portion of the INF make it too of course, since Bil is no slouch.  Would love to have 16 JAV teams running around magically blasting his tracks. Guess we'll see what happens.  

 

I certainly sympathize. It seems this battle would have been much more realistic/better if the map continued a km or so west of the hill, giving you space to withdraw and/or deploy your forces.

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