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pnzrldr

CM Black Sea - Beta Battle Report - US/UKR Side

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If you are getting hit, you are doing something wrong. Armor that works is great, but you still want to avoid having to rely on it.

 

or the enemy is doing something good too... if you plan on not getting hit to avoid suffering losses in armored combat you're in trouble already, I agree not getting into trouble is preferable (using speed and tactical proficiency) but against a worthy opponent its unavoidable or else they would only make light Tanks  :D

Edited by antaress73

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or the enemy is doing something good too... if you plan on not getting hit to avoid suffering losses in armored combat you're in trouble already, I agree not getting into trouble is preferable (using speed and tactical proficiency) but against a worthy opponent its unavoidable or else they would only make light Tanks  :D

 

I remember something called the "defensive onion":

 

Avoid beeing spotted by the enemy.

If spotted, avoid beeing fired upon (like jaming the enemys sensor, popping smoke, etc)

If fired upon, avoid getting hit (like shooting down the projectile with an APS)

If hit, avoid armor penetration.

If armor is penetrated, minimize internal damage (hint: automatic fire extinguisher, etc).

 

EDIT:

 

There it is:

 

survivability-onion.jpg

 

You should never plan to get hit. You should plan to survive even if your plan not to get hit fails.

Edited by agusto

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A plan rarely survives first contact with the enemy.Defensive onion works best when you have a less capable enemy in front of you. Your milleage will vary and you'll get closer to the center as the enemy is more and more capable and powerful. But i agree you should not plan to get hit, that's a given.

Edited by antaress73

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Onions...  LOL

 

My favorite Shrek moment

 

Shrek: For your information, there's a lot more to ogres than people think.

Donkey: Example?

Shrek: Example... uh... ogres are like onions!

[holds up an onion, which Donkey sniffs]

Donkey: They stink?

Shrek: Yes... No!

Donkey: Oh, they make you cry?

Shrek: No!

Donkey: Oh, you leave 'em out in the sun, they get all brown, start sproutin' little white hairs...

Shrek: [peels an onion] NO! Layers. Onions have layers. Ogres have layers... You get it? We both have layers.

[walks off]

Donkey: Oh, you both have LAYERS. Oh. You know, not everybody like onions. CAKE! Everybody loves cake! Cakes have layers!

Shrek: I don't care what everyone likes! Ogres are not like cakes.

Donkey: You know what ELSE everybody likes? Parfaits! Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait."? Parfaits are delicious!

Shrek: NO! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! Ogres are like onions! End of story! Bye-bye! See ya later.

Donkey: Parfait's gotta be the most delicious thing on the whole damn planet!

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Mayhem

 

http://youtu.be/vTUkgFPs3Zo

 

B company, the mech-heavy team in the north rolls over the rise and is suddenly in direct contact with BMP-3s to their east and southeast.  Some Bradleys stop, drop ramps and dismount their squads as a hedge against losing both assets to sudden fire, and to get the Javelins into the fight if necessary.  The tanks make short work of a pair of Krizentemas to the northeast, then turn their sights on the BMP-3s trying desperately to back away in the field to the southeast.  Between the Bradley's multiple TOW-IIBs and the tank fire, the Russian vehicles are overwhelmed.  We are on our way to establishing unchallenged fire superiority across the north side of Hill 347.  

 

More on the story soon...  

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So between the Ukrainians getting minced, and now your running the Russians through a meat grinder we are at what, 25 or thirty burning tracks in 16 minutes of play?  The vanguards of the new Czar didn't expect to atone for their sins quite this quickly.

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"....the Russian vehicles are overwhelmed.  We are on our way to establishing unchallenged fire superiority across the north side of Hill 347."

 

Unchallenged fire superiority has that ring of authority about it. How quickly the pendulum swings in New Modern :)

 

Black Sea Rocks!

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How good are the lines of sight from the heights you are about to control?  Can you see all the way into town?  And last but not least what are your plans for your fire support assets?  Not that it looks like you need them.

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pnzrldr,

 

Thank you for clarifying that Abrams matter that has bugged me going clear back to the XM1. "Peace through superior firepower" has been shown to be a potent concept. I wholeheartedly agree with your decision to get your crunchies (horror story ref my brother's unit at NTC) out before they became crispies. Your account of frontal kills on a T-72 with the 25 mm was news to me, but beating on a small piece of armor many times in rapid succession with DU (w/wo lots of HE) would degrade its resistance considerably, and I have no problem accepting either of the accounts. All I'd ever read of 25 mm engagements talked about flank kills in 73 Easting, which I found a bit of shock and pretty impressive. Any idea when and where the frontal kills you describe occurred? Turning now to Javelin, it would appear that operating in the woods or similar environment will, absent other major operational factors, be a necessity. For in such cases, the Javelin will be stuck with direct LOS mode, which greatly increases the likelihood of both obstacle clobber and of successful APS functioning should the AFV be so equipped and it comes to that.

 

agusto,

 

Thanks for the onion diagram. Lose some layers from that, and you will cry. Unless you're simply killed outright by running out them.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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I would like to think of this AAR as one of those american western films, the troops in Krichek lacking equipment and food these are the besieged homesteaders, the russians are the bad guys, and you pnzrldr, are the cavalry ON THE WAY TO THE RESCUE. :)

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A plan rarely survives first contact with the enemy.Defensive onion works best when you have a less capable enemy in front of you. Your milleage will vary and you'll get closer to the center as the enemy is more and more capable and powerful. But i agree you should not plan to get hit, that's a given.

 

Dont be there, dont be seen, dont be targeted, dont be hit, dont be penetrated, dont be killed. The difference between war and peace is that Dont be there is not an option. You must be there in order to combat the enemy. In combat the inner layers may peel away the more capable the enemy gets, but you should always try to achieve the mission goal the least risky way. That is basically the statement of the defensive onion IMO.

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The difference between war and peace is that Dont be there is not an option. You must be there in order to combat the enemy.

I read it as "Don't be where the enemy expects you to be".

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Mayhem

 

B company, the mech-heavy team in the north rolls over the rise and is suddenly in direct contact with BMP-3s to their east and southeast.  Some Bradleys stop, drop ramps and dismount their squads as a hedge against losing both assets to sudden fire, and to get the Javelins into the fight if necessary.  The tanks make short work of a pair of Krizentemas to the northeast, then turn their sights on the BMP-3s trying desperately to back away in the field to the southeast.  Between the Bradley's multiple TOW-IIBs and the tank fire, the Russian vehicles are overwhelmed.  We are on our way to establishing unchallenged fire superiority across the north side of Hill 347.  

 

More on the story soon...  

 

Mayhem indeed, poor Bill ;) I'm a little surprised by the boldness of your moves. While you have plenty of overwatch those Bradleys seem to be in a vulnerable position with LOF to them from all over the place. A couple of man portable ATGM or even recoiless rifles could have caused quite the number of casualties. The destruction of two AT-15 apparently in LOS/LOF proves that there is plenty of enemy potential. In proper position with just radar and missile sticking out (not fully possible ingame afaik) they could have launched radar riding missiles which can penetrate your Abrams frontally, with a small chance of your assets being able to spot the launch and react in time. Apart from the AT-15 in CMBS, from CMSF I have learned the hard way that some infantry operated AT-14 (don't know the force mix for this scenario) could have genuinely ruined your day.

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Mayhem

 

 

B company, the mech-heavy team in the north rolls over the rise and is suddenly in direct contact with BMP-3s to their east and southeast.  Some Bradleys stop, drop ramps and dismount their squads as a hedge against losing both assets to sudden fire, and to get the Javelins into the fight if necessary.  The tanks make short work of a pair of Krizentemas to the northeast, then turn their sights on the BMP-3s trying desperately to back away in the field to the southeast.  Between the Bradley's multiple TOW-IIBs and the tank fire, the Russian vehicles are overwhelmed.  We are on our way to establishing unchallenged fire superiority across the north side of Hill 347.  

 

More on the story soon...

Was the smoke, turret swing, and reverse the result go something lazing the Abrams?

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Concidering the speed at which pixelsteel and pixeltruppen become pixelscrap and pixelcorpses in this game, do we even need 60-90 minute battles? Watching ChrisND playing the first campaign missions, he usually seems to get a cease fire out of the AI well inside of 30-45 minutes.

The lethality of modern stuff is truly incredible. And seeing as i usually fare poorly even against the WW2 stuff, I'm going to kill alot of my own pTruppen trying to master this.

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Mayhem indeed, poor Bill ;) I'm a little surprised by the boldness of your moves. While you have plenty of overwatch those Bradleys seem to be in a vulnerable position with LOF to them from all over the place. A couple of man portable ATGM or even recoiless rifles could have caused quite the number of casualties. The destruction of two AT-15 apparently in LOS/LOF proves that there is plenty of enemy potential. In proper position with just radar and missile sticking out (not fully possible ingame afaik) they could have launched radar riding missiles which can penetrate your Abrams frontally, with a small chance of your assets being able to spot the launch and react in time. Apart from the AT-15 in CMBS, from CMSF I have learned the hard way that some infantry operated AT-14 (don't know the force mix for this scenario) could have genuinely ruined your day.

 

Recall, we were playing from a version of our scenario file that apparently suffered some 'version control' save issues.  My units arrived, out in the open, not tactically deployed but parked hub cap to hub cap.  I deliberately didn't show this, but had to cope with the deployment the best I could.  In the open on moderate high ground, so only one way to go.  I anticipated casualties, hence the INF jumped off many of the Brads as a hedge.  Assuming we don't get overly lit up when I get the file back, they will remount in a turn or two aside from maybe a single team to overwatch from this particular piece of high ground.  

 

AT-14 would indeed be bad, and can challenge - if not outright ruin - a real-world Abrams' day. But recall, I have the benefit of our assumed pre-deployment APS upgrade, so have a fair chance of blasting said evil nastiness from the sky before it can hurt me  ;)  His Krizantemas could have been quite nasty, but they were positioned so close - somewhere between 900 and 1400m - that I spotted them before they even saw me.  If you give George MC's "Bridgehead at Karylk" a spin, you will see what the long range AT fires can do.  

 

Oh, and let me assure you, you can very easily fill up the hour and half.  Just depends on the map.  When we stretch it to 5 x 2 or 4 x 3, with lots of folds, micro-ridges, and intervisibility lines, it will get very challenging.  Oh, you can just charge forwards and hope you can suck up the casualties - might work if you have beau coup Abrams.  But US commanders nowadays are fairly intolerant of casualties, and you will see this reflected in VP scoring in many scenarios.  Just ran the 5th US campaign mission against the AI.  You have nought but a PLT of mech, a section of tanks and a PLT of Stryker INF to seize a fairly large mega-city urban district.  If you take more than 15% casualties, you are significantly penalized!  

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Oh, and let me assure you, you can very easily fill up the hour and half.  Just depends on the map.  When we stretch it to 5 x 2 or 4 x 3, with lots of folds, micro-ridges, and intervisibility lines, it will get very challenging.  Oh, you can just charge forwards and hope you can suck up the casualties - might work if you have beau coup Abrams.  But US commanders nowadays are fairly intolerant of casualties, and you will see this reflected in VP scoring in many scenarios.  Just ran the 5th US campaign mission against the AI.  You have nought but a PLT of mech, a section of tanks and a PLT of Stryker INF to seize a fairly large mega-city urban district.  If you take more than 15% casualties, you are significantly penalized!  

yeah that is a fun one, Infantry in high rises, not a good day.  Hard to spot and an Abrams can be killed with an RPG.  I managed to lose one.

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