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CM Black Sea - Beta Battle Report - US/UKR Side

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While it is certainly a relatively large problem I wouldn't go as far as not using ATGM vehicles at all. They still have there utility, find good hull down/concealed positions and they can wreak havoc on armor, especially those with the capability of firing more than one ATGM at once which are present in-game.

 

The Khrizantema and Shturm are purposely built to remain out of sight whilst their firing post and sight remain visible. The vehicle would be a completely different shape and armoured differently had they been envisaged to operate in a different way.

This is quite a big problem.

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And so it begins....

Yes it is an issue but obviously if there was an easy fix it would be solved.

The 80/20 rule applies.

Sounds like it will require a new game engine and that will take some time..

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Raptor - like your quote.  Good film/book.

 

I concur on the issue of finding actual full turret/hull defilade to enable elevated optics.  However, the powers that be have assured me that:

a.  This is not a new issue.  Even applies to some WWII types and their LOS model currently does not support.  Think 'new engine' not overhauled.  Like, not CM 4.0, but CM Future.

b.  There is some mitigation in that you can find true hull down for vehicles.  Its just hard to do. See Bil's instructions on his Blog.  Guess what?  Its hard in real life too, if not quite as hard as in the game.

c.  I cannot believe I forgot to push for improved vehicle positions!  Wow!  Given all the time I've spent digging in tanks at NTC you would have thought that a no-brainer.  I will push that immediately.  Unreal.

 

Next post out sometime tonight/tomorrow.  Will run the latest turn tonight at least and see what's left.  0815 cannot come soon enough.

 

For scenario designers, I did the US campaign mission # 2.  It features US Scout PLT, a couple JTACs, a Stryker PLT w/ MGS and ATGM reinforcement, against about a Mech BDE of Russians.  ;-)  But, the US guys have CAS, RW ATK, UAS, and plenty of artillery.  A very interesting mission. Scout PLT has a couple TOW HMMWVs which actually did some decent killing in my run-throughs.  Would not abandon ATGM vehicles yet.  While Krizhentema can't really fire from full defilade, it is not easy to spot.  I fought a couple back in Beta 8 on a beautiful GeorgeMC created scenario you guys will love, and had a real shoot out against them at like 4200m with a couple of Abrams.  Took about 4 hits on the Abrams if I recall, before I spotted the damn thing, and I think it took a dozen rounds or so before we scored on the Kriz.  Only took one hit of course.   A Kriz with the proper fire discipline to look for flanks or Bradleys would do some very heinous damage, and surviving the four hits may have been an anomaly too, as the Kriz fires a pretty capable missile that likely does have some degree of PK on Abrams front.  Back in Beta 8ish the Abrams was fairly invulnerable, and I think that has been toned down a bit going forward.

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I'm surprised BFC went to all the time and trouble required to create a whole new sim under CMx3...

They didn't. This is CMx2, engine version 3 (dot something). Not a "whole new sim". It's a new Family but not a new engine, or even a new version of the current engine (AIUI), so the limitations remain.

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Wonder how the Abrams will appear?  Will they be in defilade/out of LoS, or just sort of pop onto the map out of cover?

 

I'm pretty sure the Abrams will be pretty damn resilient when hull-down versus its peers.  But then arty (and the Abrams comparatively-thin roof armor) become a liability :(

 

In Steel Beasts, an M1A2  hull-down isnt something you engage with a tank unless there arent any other real options :P  Its kind of the best "Dont engage an enemy on their terms" example I can think of, armor wise.

Edited by Nerdwing

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In Steel Beasts, an Abrams hull-down isnt something you engage with a tank unless there arent any other real options :P

 

I understand a Leo2a5(+) is even more dangerous in that position? and a Chally 2 has best all around armor despite slightly worse AP pen and mobility?

 

Or does the newly added M1A2 SEP have increased turrent armor compared to previous M1A1s?

 

(i'm just curious for info..)

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If I remember what I was told correctly, one of the later SEP upgrades got a boost in turret protection.  I'm not 100% sure there, so take that with a grain of salt :P.  The Leopard 2 and Chally 2 probably do have heavier armor there though, I'm not sure.  Just that each tank has their own "weak spot" they want to protect especially.

 

I'm just super-impressed by its optical suite more than anything  :lol:  The digital zoom is a phenomenal advantage in target acquisition.

Edited by Nerdwing

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If I remember what I was told correctly, one of the later SEP upgrades got a boost in turret protection.  I'm not 100% sure there, so take that with a grain of salt :P.  The Leopard 2 and Chally 2 probably do have heavier armor there though, I'm not sure.  Just that each tank has their own "weak spot" they want to protect especially.

 

I'm just super-impressed by its optical suite more than anything  :lol:  The digital zoom is a phenomenal advantage in target acquisition.

OK thanks.

 

If only it even has a semi-campaign like CM. Oh well.

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While Krizhentema can't really fire from full defilade, it is not easy to spot. I fought a couple back in Beta 8 on a beautiful GeorgeMC created scenario you guys will love, and had a real shoot out against them at like 4200m with a couple of Abrams. Took about 4 hits on the Abrams if I recall, before I spotted the damn thing, and I think it took a dozen rounds or so before we scored on the Kriz. Only took one hit of course. A Kriz with the proper fire discipline to look for flanks or Bradleys would do some very heinous damage, and surviving the four hits may have been an anomaly too, as the Kriz fires a pretty capable missile that likely does have some degree of PK on Abrams front. Back in Beta 8ish the Abrams was fairly invulnerable, and I think that has been toned down a bit going forward.

Also, IIRC the Khrizantema did not have salvo fire in Beta 8.

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pnzrldr,

 

I'm glad you found my comments helpful. What is RW ATK, please? Am quite confused on CM game engine issue. My understanding was that we first had CMx1 (then revolutionary, now old engine) for CMBO, CMBB and CMAK. After that came the new engine, CMx2, which got off to a very rocky start in CMSF, then went into CMBN and CMFI. Whereupon we eventually got CMx3 in CMRT. We now have retrofit options to put CMx3 for CMBN and CMFI. I thought CMx3 was supposed to be the carefully thought through basis for many games to come, one with the flexibility to properly model conflict spanning at least WW II-Near Future? Now you tell me, though, we can't do what we the gamers were told was doable, until CMx4, yet another engine, is brought forth well down the road. How is it that we wound up still so short of the mark when it comes to depicting modern warfare? What am I missing here, please?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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Am quite confused on CM game engine issue. My understanding was that we first had CMx1 (then revolutionary, now old engine) for CMBO, CMBB and CMAK. After that came the new engine, CMx2, which got off to a very rocky start in CMSF, then went into CMBN and CMFI. Whereupon we eventually got CMx3 in CMRT. We now have retrofit options to put CMx3 for CMBN and CMFI. I thought CMx3 was supposed to be the carefully thought through basis for many games to come, one with the flexibility to properly model conflict spanning at least WW II-Near Future? Now you tell me, though, we can't do what we the gamers were told was doable, until CMx4, yet another engine, is brought forth well down the road. How is it that we wound up still so short of the mark when it comes to depicting modern warfare? What am I missing here, please?

 

CMx1: CMBO, CMBB, CMAA

CMx2: CMSF, CMA, CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, CMBS and ongoing. Currently on version 3-dot-something, depending on quite what product you've got.

CMx3: a future product. Possibly. It might never happen, if CMx2 can keep being improved versionwise. Maybe it'll be a new generation when they dump OpenGL. Current stated intention is to make upgrades for all old families as the engine improves. Whether that's something BFC can support across a generation change, we have yet to see.

We didn't tell you anything about CMx4, because until we've had CMx2 and possiblu CMx3 all the way through to the end of their development cycle, any speculation about what features may remain to be included. It's entirely possible that the mast LOS thing will get fixed in a future version of CMx2 (v4, 5, n or n +1. That's version four not CMx4).

 

It's very easy (up to a point) though: there are two tiers of development: CMx1/CMx2 complete the high level architectural tier population. Then there's the version tier. In CMx1, the version tier consists of BO, BB and AK. In CMx2 the version tier consists of every CM product after CMSF. Within the CMx2 branch, the version numbering is nasty confusing, with CMRT still being on 1.xx even though it started on engine (that's the CMx2 engine) version 3 for example, and some CMBN product combinations still being v2.xx even though they're using engine version 3 and have previously moved up from 1.xx to 2.xx at the same time the engine got upgraded for that family.

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RW ATK = Rotary Wing Attack, ie. AH-64s (or OH-58D's until we finish getting rid of them).  

Sorry to all - epic fail getting another turn up.  My Mom showed up early for Xmas.  Maybe by tomorrow night.

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RW ATK = Rotary Wing Attack, ie. AH-64s (or OH-58D's until we finish getting rid of them).  

Sorry to all - epic fail getting another turn up.  My Mom showed up early for Xmas.  Maybe by tomorrow night.

Your mother has already written to me complaining about your lack of attention to the AAR.  I am betting you get coal this year in your stocking.

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womble,

 

That was a tremendous reply, though am not sure how you did it after your head exploded. Mine's dangerously unstable as I type this. I think a significant part of my confusion lies in the discussion of the 3.0 upgrade and that the startup screen clearly says 3.1. Therefore, if I understood you correctly, what I have installed on my CMBN/CW/MG is the CMx2 engine, Version 3.1, right?

 

JohnO and pnzrldr,

 

Appreciate the RW ATK explanation, since it's jargon I'd not encountered before.

 

pnzrldr,

 

After watching ChrisND's tank-on-tank vid for a de facto ambush at 750 meters, I stand in awe of modern tank gunnery, at least in a static situation. There wasn't really time in the vid to look at the effects of nonlethal individual hits on the M1s, but I was astounded by how fast things fell apart for the US. Also, I found the Russian refire times to be very short. Since this engagement was similar in some ways to shooting tank gunnery tables, what do you see as being likely, for both sides, under battlefield conditions? If what I saw was any indication of likely outcomes, then we need to reopen the Abrams production line immediately.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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...what I have installed on my CMBN/CW/MG is the CMx2 engine, Version 3.1, right?

 

I can't see from here what you have on your computer, but that sounds perfectly plausible. I'd hazard the guess that you have finally found your way through the Wonderland maze of version numbers...for BN anyway.

 

Michael

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pnzrldr,

 

After watching ChrisND's tank-on-tank vid for a de facto ambush at 750 meters, I stand in awe of modern tank gunnery, at least in a static situation. There wasn't really time in the vid to look at the effects of nonlethal individual hits on the M1s, but I was astounded by how fast things fell apart for the US. Also, I found the Russian refire times to be very short. Since this engagement was similar in some ways to shooting tank gunnery tables, what do you see as being likely, for both sides, under battlefield conditions? If what I saw was any indication of likely outcomes, then we need to reopen the Abrams production line immediately.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

 

 

John - Unsure what vid you are describing - please provide link.  If I am not posting AAR, it is unlikely I'm doing any other CM browsing, aside from very occasional response to question on the beta board.  Is it part of Chris' latest 2 part full CMBS scenario on Youtube?  If so, give time stamp.

 

Pnzr

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pnzerldr,

 

Was referring to ChrisND's Part 2 of his 4-part series "Black Sea equipment lethality/countermeasures," in which, at 750 meter range, starting around 2:23, he conducts a direct front engagement of T-90s vs Abrams also facing forward. The same vid also shows the APS in operation on the Abrams. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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PFC Purtle hollered down to the armored truck’s driver to stop.

“Hold up here.  We don’t want to get too far back from Sergeant Bagby.”

“What are you talking about?” the young Private responded, “He said to leave him. The whole world is blowing up on that hillside!” 

“Just hang here a few minutes,” Purtle ordered, “I’ll see what I can do.”  He finished clipping the lead round from a new box of 40mm HEDP onto the dangling belt from his Mk19, swung the weapon around, and adjusted the traverse and elevation mechanism to lay the heavy gun on the hillside a scant 300m away.  All he could see were trees, with smoke sifting up through the leaves. 

“Well, what the hell, they won’t like these grenades going off over their heads,” he thought, and loosed a quick burst, followed by another.  He had no solid target, but shooting back at anything felt good, and soothed his jangling nerves.

 

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On the other side of the hill, KPT Antonyuk spoke emphatically into his handset, his tone imperative. 

“No, you must pull back.  There are too many, and they are on the south side too.  Get your men back to the gully!  Now!” 

“Is that LT Kolomiyets, with Second?”  his RTO asked. 

“Yes, but he is not himself.  He must lead his men back….” 

As the Kapeytan spoke, the “TCHANK, TCHANK, TCHANK!” hammer on anvil sound came again from behind the 2nd Platoon Positions.  Moments later yet another column of smoke rose into the sky, marking the destruction of yet another Ukrainian BMP-2, this one belonging to PdPK Levchenko himself.  Antonyuk looked to his rear for his commander, and saw him with his team headed back down towards the gully to their rear.  Cannon shells from up on the hillside and across the valley kept whipping across, each one detonating above the surviving infantrymen of 2nd Platoon, each with a fearful “Craccckk!”  Antonyuk watched in helpless agony as yet another team of dismounts hit the ground and lay still.  Then another round zipped past from the south, this one seemingly close enough to reach up and grab as it passed.  It detonated closer, and tight behind.  The Ukrainian officer gasped in shock as he recognized that it had found its mark, directly over his commander’s team.  He saw the haze of smoke in the air, and the dust thrown up on the ground from the shrapnel’s impact, all around his trusted mentor.  He said a brief prayer, and as it cleared he saw PdPK Levchenko still moving forward, though one of his party now lay still. 

“This is a disaster,” Antonyuk thought, “We must save what we can.  I wonder if the mortars can retreat in time.”  He grabbed the handset again and began speaking.

 

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North of PFC Purtle’s position, LT Upham assessed the situation.  He was desperately working his way through his PACE plan, trying first his primary – his MNVR radio, then his alternate – his Blue Force Tracker 2, then his contingency – TACSAT (couldn’t find the bird) and finally his emergency communications systems.  His emergency system was a locally procured GSM cell phone he had picked up in Lviv, but to operate it he had to shut off his Bradley’s on board electronic warfare set.  While he was frantically working his way through this, his crew was helping SSG Svendson’s team cross loading the Javelin rounds.  It took less than a minute, but time seemed precious.  Upham hated his position – as soon as Purtle and Svendson had pulled back he had lost his eyes up front, and now had no idea how close the Russian elements had drawn. 

“Sir, we’re good to go.” 

“Dammit – frickin’ phone.  Good Sergeant, I need you to move back up so you can see what’s coming.  Move carefully up about 50m that way, where I came from, and get eyes on the hillside.  I’m pretty sure you should get a Jav shot in short order.  Don’t hang for two, just shoot and scoot like we practiced.  Haul ass back here.  I’ll send your truck back another terrain feature.”

“Roger that Sir.  Anything from Battalion at all?” 

“Not a damn thing.  Go kill a tank and I’ll bet I’ve got them up before you get back.”

The grim look in the NCO’s eyes struck the young collegian like a brick.  But he took the hit and nodded. 
“Good luck.  We’ll back you up.” 

He tucked the apparently useless phone back in his cargo pocket, and clambered up the side of the Bradle, hooking up his headset as he dropped into the BC’s hatch.  Without usable comms the scouts had no access to covering artillery, attack aviation, Air Force close air support or any other help, including MEDEVAC.  Nor could they do their actual job of communicating the enemy’s disposition to their Battalion leadership.  Upham hoped that comms would clear as the rapid columns of heavy armor drew nearer.

 

16084679475_1c5fb6d9b7_b.jpg

Edited by pnzrldr

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At the edge of Krickek, a 30 year old Ukrainian private was smoking a cigarette.  He was a rough looking character, with a light beard over heavy acne scars, and the tobacco stains on his teeth hid the poor dental repairs.  But despite his ragamuffin appearance, he was alert and was keeping his smoke low in the hole he shared with a young high school kid from Kiev. 

“There, look…” he said, carefully setting his smoking cigarette against a sandbag. 
“It is a Russian – you see him Bubi?”

“Don’t call me that, you derelict.  Of course I see him.  Are you going to shoot him, or just admire him?”

The veteran grinned, never taking his eyes from the Russian trooper, creeping along a hedgeline in the little ville on the far side of the river.  For such a young punk, this kid had spirit!  He gave the AGS-17 grenade launcher a nudge to the left, and triggered a burst without even rechecking his aim.  The machinegun chuckled, and spat out a short stream of deadly little balls – like black little golf balls he thought, as he followed their short flight.  The rounds bracketed the hedge, detonating close around the Russian soldier, who quickly dropped from sight.  The private fired three more bursts for good measure, precisely dropping the grenades onto both sides of the hedge.  No more could be seen, but a shout in Russian seemed to promise that at least some of their fire had done some damage.  He smiled a crooked grin, and tucked his cigarette back into the corner of his mouth.  With the dust raised by their firing, it could hardly give away their position now.  Behind him another volley of artillery slammed down on Krichek, shattering street cobbles, bricks and roof tiles, as it detonated against the streets. 

 

http://youtu.be/jyIP2M3Av3s

 

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LT Lysenko was wondering exactly who had his range.  He wasn’t certain, but his little post had taken nearly 20 rounds of something, and though he thought initially they had been seen by a tank, now he feared someone had zeroed in on his little band with a deadly large mortar, perhaps two.  The rounds came it at fairly regular intervals, and though he couldn’t get a direction from inside, they certainly seemed to be falling from above rather than below.  He popped his head up long enough to see a Russian infantryman plowing through the wheat, heading towards him from the north, then ducked as another bomb whistled in before detonating against the roof of the power plant stack to his east.   He strained to catch the fall of shot against the truck he had targeted with his own mortars, but could not see anything but a cloud of dust in that direction.  They must be on though, and he carefully pulled the radio set from his dead RTO’s back to raise the antenna so he could make the call.  

 

16082686991_2d9d9bab3f_b.jpg

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