ukraine military vs russia

[Battlefront.com]

Donetsk "Bercut" and "Alpha" joined DPR. Hodakovsky is Alpha commander.

I know who Khodakovsky is and what Berkut and Alpha are. I also know what their equipment and uniforms look like. Mostly because I am a uniform collector and I have OMON uniforms 2 meters to my right. The stuff in the video is NOT Berkut or Alpha, but OMON. Of course anybody could buy this stuff on eBay, just like Putin said about the Green Men in Crimea. But Russian government credibility is extremely low, so I believe my eyes more than assurances from Moscow.

All Ukrainian reports about enemy casualties should be divided by 10. Not only Ukrainian.

4000 dead Russians = 400 dead Russians. That sounds reasonable.

Strelkov (Girkin) told recently in his interview about it. He said that complains were for mobilisation effect, to attract more volunteers. Also he said that there were more volunteers than arms in srping.

I have seen Girkin and other leaders say the exact opposite at the time. Plus, early on Russian "volunteers" went into Ukraine without weapons. It was one way they got into Ukraine through Ukrainian controlled border positions (before they were seized). Then the DPR/LPR leaders complained that RUSSIA wasn't providing enough weapons to equip all the soldiers. They were also unhappy with the older weapons they received from RUSSIA because many had been improperly stored in depots or were worn out already. This was all made public by the DPR themselves to put more pressure on RUSSIA to provide more and better weapons.

Ossetians and Abkazians fight mainly in "Vostok" battalion. Now I am afraid that uncons in Black Sea will have eastern apperiance.

Don't forget Chechens. Kadyrov was bragging about how many men he sent to Ukraine. The men themselves said they were "Kadyrov's men". They were more important at the beginning than they are now.

There are different forms of genocide. One of them - forcing to leave homes.

False. That is not "genocide". Genocide has a VERY specific meaning and Russian propaganda has completely misused it. And who forced Ukrainians to leave their homes? The Ukrainian government? No, the fighting did. And who is responsible for the fighting? There would be no fighting now if it were not for Russia's direct aid. So Russia is responsible for the people being forced from their homes, not Ukraine.

Question is in scale of actions, not did it happen or not. Of course it did happen, imagine communists would make a revolt in Mexica and started hardcore military operation in proamerican north regions. I think, that if Putin would do nothing (may be he would like to do nothing) he would lose all his support in the country.

Some estimates are that more than 1/2 of the fighters in Ukraine, at any given time, are Russian nationals.

And you are correct that Putin does think that if he loses control of Ukraine that he is next after Yanukovych. That's the difficulty of being a dictator... power is always brittle. Which is why Putin has brought Russia back to the Soviet times of Cold War. He cares more about power and money than the Russian people.

There were some other cases, one time they lost their BMP on Russian territory. And they shelled town near the border with 1 Russian civilian killed.

One BMP lost in Russia is a joke compared to the confirmed hundreds of AFVs that have moved over the border into Ukraine.

As for the shelling that killed 1 Russian civilian... where is your proof that Ukrainian forces fired the artillery that caused the death? There is no proof, is there? The shells could have come from Russia's own separatists. The mentality and background of many of the separatist leaders trace back to GRU, FSB, SBU, and back to KGB. Many others are simple criminals. Do not discount the possibility that they fired the shells into Russia to cause an international incident.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

sburke, they regularly shell towns and cities where were no DPR forces. People who suffer from shelling would note if rebel's mortar would shoot in this place 10 mins ago, right?

You ask for much proof from others for their statements. Where is your proof of this statement?

Personally, I have seen a repeated practice of separatists deliberately and accidentally firing into residential neighborhoods of territory they control and elsewhere, then Russian media blames Ukrainian forces. This has been documented by OSCE, home made videos (by the separatists themselves!), and statements by separatists. In fact, just a few days ago the separatists bragged about shelling some Ukrainian forces in a specific place, it was then reported that only civilians were hit, then they changed their story that Ukrainians did it.

https://twitter.com/patriot_petya/status/536624359553900544

I have seen countless pictures of separatist artillery, mortars, and AA guns set up in places like hospitals, schools, and residential neighborhoods. They hope that when return fire comes down they are gone and the civilians get hit. This is a very common tactic of such forces. Palestinians use this sort of thing all the time when they launch attacks against Israel.

I do not expect more from criminal gangs that spend as much time looting and murdering the civilian population they occupy as they do fighting.

This is not to say that Ukraine hasn't hit civilian targets by accident. I know that they have. Even the US, which is vastly superior in terms of artillery, accidentally kills civilians. But Russian and separatist propaganda wants people to believe every civilian hit is from Ukrainian artillery, none of it from Russian or separatist. They also want people to believe that Ukraine is deliberately attacking civilian areas and Russians and separatists never do.

Russian media also told us there were no Russian troops occupying Crimea and attacking Ukrainian military bases before it was annexed.

Steve

[John Kettler]

DMS,

The Azov Battalion emblem is NOT the SS emblem, for it is a pair of Sigrun. It is very close to 2 SS PD and similar to 4 SS PD.

http://worldwarera.com/images/Insignia_Waffen_SS_Divisions_big.jpg

What you missed entirely is what's behind it. The Black Sun, a significant esoteric/occult symbol to the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(occult_symbol)

Since this is now dangerously close to sounding like the dialog in an episode of Sheldon's "Fun with Flags" show within a show on "The Big Bang Theory", I'll stop here.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

The point to focus on is that Azov (and at least one other) volunteer battalions are small potatoes in this fight. They have practically no representation in the government (far less than other right wing groups in many European nations) and only small number of fighters who are legally fighting on behalf of the Ukrainian government. Which means the neo-Nazi influence on the Ukrainian side is small except for the immediate tactical positions their forces occupy on the battlefield.

Compare this with the role of Russian National Unity and Eurasia Party are playing for the DPR/LPR. They occupied leadership roles at the very top of the organization and obviously got to that position because they have (or at least had) major power behind them. They also have money. Lots and lots of money. And weapons. Not to mention major political clout with the Russian government.

Which means, if we are to start talking about neo-Nazis and Fascism in this fight, which side is more neo-Nazi or Fascist? The one that has an elected government that is recognized by the UN, is being attacked by its neighbor, and is fielding two battalions with some of the members being neo-Nazis *or* the one that has no legitimacy and is (or at least was) run by overt neo-Nazis and Fascists from a foreign country?

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Argh! There I go into off-topic land. It is so hard to talk about only the military aspect of this war since it is so badly mischaracterized and misunderstood by so many.

OK, I recognize I am setting a bad example for this thread. The politics of the fight that is going on obviously interests me personally quite a bit. But it has nothing to do with Black Sea and therefore doesn't have a correct place in this Forum.

Anybody that wishes to reply to the past few posts may do so once. I'll check in later on today and hopefully we can get back to military related topics, and away from the more purely political aspects. If not, then I will move the thread to the General Forum and maybe we can start a new one here that will stay on topic better.

Steve

[Sgt Joch]

Argh! There I go into off-topic land. It is so hard to talk about only the military aspect of this war since it is so badly mischaracterized and misunderstood by so many.

OK, I recognize I am setting a bad example for this thread. The politics of the fight that is going on obviously interests me personally quite a bit. But it has nothing to do with Black Sea and therefore doesn't have a correct place in this Forum.

Anybody that wishes to reply to the past few posts may do so once. I'll check in later on today and hopefully we can get back to military related topics, and away from the more purely political aspects. If not, then I will move the thread to the General Forum and maybe we can start a new one here that will stay on topic better.

Steve

You did seem to be on a roll.

[Saferight]

Yes a pretty good break down of it all steve.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

I have no doubt you'll get this topical train back on track, but before you do...

Sgt Joch,

Would that roll be Kaiser, Parker House, butterscotch, jelly or Tootsie? Absolutely coul;dn't resist!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

You did seem to be on a roll.

You know better than most that I'm pretty passionate about this I think you also know that in 10 months of covering this my initial hypothesis of what's going on hasn't suffered any significant dents. The opposite, I think.

Anyhoo, a few pages ago I posted something that is totally on topic and I'm not sure it got noticed. First hand accounts of fighting in Ukraine that could be used to make a scenario for Combat Mission are very difficult to find. Mostly it is too scattered or vague to do much with. This is one exception I found. And it's from Ilovaisk, which will go down in history as one of the most significant battles of the whole war. At least until now, so let's hope it stays that way!

http://burkonews.info/story-colonel-evgeniy-sidorenko-broke-ilovaisk-russian-t-72-tank/

Steve

[Jargotn]

Argh! There I go into off-topic land. It is so hard to talk about only the military aspect of this war since it is so badly mischaracterized and misunderstood by so many.

I really like off-topic land. I learned quite a bit while following this thread and I think that the conflict can't be seen seperately for the reasons stated above.

OK, I recognize I am setting a bad example for this thread. The politics of the fight that is going on obviously interests me personally quite a bit. But it has nothing to do with Black Sea and therefore doesn't have a correct place in this Forum.

Anybody that wishes to reply to the past few posts may do so once. I'll check in later on today and hopefully we can get back to military related topics, and away from the more purely political aspects. If not, then I will move the thread to the General Forum and maybe we can start a new one here that will stay on topic better.

Steve

Yup. While the politics are interesting they don't belong into the Black sea forum.

I'd move this thread no matter what. It is to filled with political aspects of the conflict, and every statement made by someone will (probably) refer to a political aspect. A new military thread does seem necessary.

Even though there is a big "NO POLITICS" heading in the Off-Topic forum it probably is safe to assume that some, myself included, would like to

keep the discussion going (mainly to follow that excellent source of Information called Steve.) Maybe someone should edit the sticky post regarding politics and black sea. That way we could have both, an informative discussion about politics and a cleaned CMBS (Or CMBC? I'm confused.) forum.

Unless Im misinterpreting something.

No mather I want to thank everybody who participated. Very interesting stuff.

[DMS]

Well, I was glad to read your point of view. Didn't want to argue or prove anything, just wanted to share some info from other side. There are some discussable questions, but some...

Really, I don't understand what OMON would do there. Or info about hundreds of killed Russian soldiers. It is no 1930's with all-mighty NKVD, everyone would know for sure, not "suspicious graves" and letters from ministry of defense. Hundres of relatives are silent, Elena Vasileva publishes secret lists...

Just my opinion.

[Battlefront.com]

I really like off-topic land. I learned quite a bit while following this thread and I think that the conflict can't be seen seperately for the reasons stated above.

I think it is also a privilege to discuss this calmly and productively with Russians and others with different perspectives. Some of the forums I look for information make me "weep for Humanity". A reminder of why our species has such a tough time getting along with each other

Even though there is a big "NO POLITICS" heading in the Off-Topic forum it probably is safe to assume that some, myself included, would like to

keep the discussion going (mainly to follow that excellent source of Information called Steve.) Maybe someone should edit the sticky post regarding politics and black sea. That way we could have both, an informative discussion about politics and a cleaned CMBS (Or CMBC? I'm confused.) forum.

Unless Im misinterpreting something.

As with most things we set a high standard and then show sensible flexibility in discussions. It is impossible to completely stay away from such things.

No mather I want to thank everybody who participated. Very interesting stuff.

Yup! I thank everybody involved so far.

Well, I was glad to read your point of view. Didn't want to argue or prove anything, just wanted to share some info from other side. There are some discussable questions, but some...

There is plenty of room to disagree about the "facts" in Ukraine because so much information is deliberately shaped by people and not true events. However, some facts are stronger than others.

Really, I don't understand what OMON would do there.

My guess is that they "volunteered" and went together, then joined up with others. I suspect many in OMON are ex-military as such police are in many countries. We have a number of testers who are currently US police who also were/are in the military. It's common.

Or info about hundreds of killed Russian soldiers.

I think you might be underestimating the amount of fighting that has happened in the past 6 months. Modern warfare, as CM shows, can be extremely deadly very quickly. One hit to an APC can kill 6-10 men in one shot. Certainly I've seen the horrible evidence of this in videos and pictures

We know more about Ukrainian casualties because they are counting their dead, whereas Russia obviously doesn't publish numbers. I don't have a total handy, but as of late September Ukraine stated they lost 2000 killed. That's an average of about 10 per day, some of whom died off the battlefield. The casualty rate has decreased per day since then, to more like 2-3 per day. So add another 100 or so killed.

The overall number of killed on the separatist side is likely several thousand more than the Ukrainian side, but at the very least not significantly lower. From all accounts of frontline activity it seems that the separatists, overall, have generally lost more men for less gain than the Ukrainians. Especially during the July-August Ukrainian offensive and then again at the Donetsk airport.

To the extent you wish to count the dead as "separatists", "volunteers", "vacationers", or "Russian army" determines how many dead to count as Russian army. My personal guess, and it is a wild guess, is that the proper Russian army units in Ukraine have suffered a few hundred dead, not a few thousand.

It is no 1930's with all-mighty NKVD, everyone would know for sure, not "suspicious graves" and letters from ministry of defense. Hundres of relatives are silent, Elena Vasileva publishes secret lists...

You should do some research into how the Soviet Union handled casualty reporting for the war in Afghanistan. I think by now there are some good (accurate) books about this in Russian. At first the Soviet Union did not admit there were any forces in Afghanistan and they behaved badly towards the families of the dead to keep them quiet. This was successful at first, but as casualties increased over the years it was no longer possible to hide the deaths. It is widely believed that a major contributing factor to the end of the Soviet Union was its behavior towards the families. Which is why the Russian government is being extra careful about casualties now.

Steve

[DMS]

I think you might be underestimating the amount of fighting that has happened in the past 6 months. Modern warfare, as CM shows, can be extremely deadly very quickly. One hit to an APC can kill 6-10 men in one shot. Certainly I've seen the horrible evidence of this in videos and pictures

We know more about Ukrainian casualties because they are counting their dead, whereas Russia obviously doesn't publish numbers. I don't have a total handy, but as of late September Ukraine stated they lost 2000 killed. That's an average of about 10 per day, some of whom died off the battlefield. The casualty rate has decreased per day since then, to more like 2-3 per day. So add another 100 or so killed.

The overall number of killed on the separatist side is likely several thousand more than the Ukrainian side, but at the very least not significantly lower. From all accounts of frontline activity it seems that the separatists, overall, have generally lost more men for less gain than the Ukrainians. Especially during the July-August Ukrainian offensive and then again at the Donetsk airport.

To the extent you wish to count the dead as "separatists", "volunteers", "vacationers", or "Russian army" determines how many dead to count as Russian army. My personal guess, and it is a wild guess, is that the proper Russian army units in Ukraine have suffered a few hundred dead, not a few thousand.

Absolutely opposite information from militia. 2000 killed probably is underestimated number.

Ukrainian army is not proffessional, men are untrained.

Ukainian trench:

How do you like that ubiquitous flags:

Vehicle is seen in any hull down or turret down position. I saw video where BMP was hit on full speed, probably ATGM. BMP was hardly visible from camera, but that yellow-blue flag was wavering 2 metres higher.

They are trained not better than average militiaman. And they are less motivated. Ukrainian volunteers are motivated better, but lack of heavy weapons and incompetent commanders kill them. Former Maidan fighters.

And army's heavy weapons not always help. Tanks are hardly vulnerable, but blind, (spring-summer) light armor was wiped out, artillery usually missed. (until fighting in airport) Now artillery is better.

Militia commanders had to take care about casualties, as they had very few men. Ukrainians had x10 number superiority in some moments. Strelkov retreated from Slavyansk and left some other towns to avoid losses. (and because lack of ammo, as he says) When one side force density is extremely low, and second side density is high, second side will have more losses in such type of war, with active use of artillery. Note that single "Nona" against batteries of guns positioned in line formation.

Airport is a different story, Ukrainians defend, huge artillery support, Polish snipers, competent artillery spotters, UAVs. (I mentioned that they are Polish because they are real snipers, not Ukrainian reservists with SVD)

Enemy casualties are always overestimated, friendly underestimated.

You should do some research into how the Soviet Union handled casualty reporting for the war in Afghanistan. I think by now there are some good (accurate) books about this in Russian. At first the Soviet Union did not admit there were any forces in Afghanistan and they behaved badly towards the families of the dead to keep them quiet. This was successful at first, but as casualties increased over the years it was no longer possible to hide the deaths. It is widely believed that a major contributing factor to the end of the Soviet Union was its behavior towards the families. Which is why the Russian government is being extra careful about casualties now.

I heard about it. But FSB is not KGB. There is an internet now, on a second. But our opposition activists publish only doubtful video with funerals, where someone tries to beat them. That looks very similar to Auto-maidan creations. Bloody dictator threats to media? (although "Eho Moskvy", "Rain", "New gazette" publish what they want) Publish in Live journal (owner - Ukrainian buisnessman), Vcontacte, Facebook. But nothing to publish with exept to fakes.

[Kieme(ITA)]

I wouldn't dare calling people who are fighting a war on their homeland unprofessionals, untrained, etc. and all this constant bashing is in my opinion uncalled for, especially from a forum dedicated to video games.

[Saferight]

Polish snipers? What Russias foes couldnt get any female biathalon snipers from the baltics this time round?

[DMS]

Kieme, didn't want to say something bad, may be language problems. I mean that they are green, not experienced, don't know how I should call them correctly.

Donbas militamen also fight for their homeland, this is political question, I think.

Saferight, do you think that Ukrainian goverment doesn't hire PMC? Why they wouldn't do it, they have few military professionals.

[Saferight]

Saferight, do you think that Ukrainian goverment doesn't hire PMC? Why they wouldn't do it, they have few military professionals.

They wouldnt do it cause their broke!!! If you think they would dish out the cash for a pmc rather than train new marksmen and snipers youre delusional. Im sure there are some very capable snipers in the ukranian military ranging fron guys who've been in the military for years along with afghan war vets.

[DMS]

They wouldnt do it cause their broke!!! If you think they would dish out the cash for a pmc rather than train new marksmen and snipers youre delusional. Im sure there are some very capable snipers in the ukranian military ranging fron guys who've been in the military for years along with afghan war vets.

They are eager to pay cash for their military purposes.

To train new snipers, real snipers, they need not less than a year. Years, I would say. There were snipers in security and police forces. But they were few, they were more police than army snipers and many of them joined rebels. If you watched videos from Maidan, you know why.

In the military - I think no. There were "snipers" - guys with SVD. May be in special forces, I don't know. They had few money and few modern equipment. And few ammo to practice.

[Jargotn]

Kieme, didn't want to say something bad, may be language problems. I mean that they are green, not experienced, don't know how I should call them correctly.

Donbas militamen also fight for their homeland, this is political question, I think.

But the conflict has been going on for quite some time now. There definately is a number of veterans who train those "green" troops.

And in combat you learn things a lot faster.

[DMS]

But the conflict has been going on for quite some time now. There definately is a number of veterans who train those "green" troops.

And in combat you learn things a lot faster.

Probably. Who knows, it takes place at present moment. Will see.

[BlackMoria]

The commentary about the flags on vehicles is noteworthy. In a war in which both sides have the same equipment, I suspect the flags are more to say 'we are this side' rather than a nationalist sediment or bravado.

I see videos with the separatists vehicles flying flags as well, so both sides do it.

I imagine that friendly fire is a real concern and I have no doubt that 'blue on blue' engagements have happened for all sides.

Throw in the rather haphazard training of the rank and file UA soldiers and the separatists and proper identification of who the enemy is must be a concern.

[Saferight]

The commentary about the flags on vehicles is noteworthy. In a war in which both sides have the same equipment, I suspect the flags are more to say 'we are this side' rather than a nationalist sediment or bravado.

I see videos with the separatists vehicles flying flags as well, so both sides do it.

I imagine that friendly fire is a real concern and I have no doubt that 'blue on blue' engagements have happened for all sides.

Throw in the rather haphazard training of the rank and file UA soldiers and the separatists and proper identification of who the enemy is must be a concern.

Same with both sides using the same or similar camo patterns and uniforms. That creates a need for colored arm bands or in the rebels case saint georges ribbons for id purposes.

[postfux123]

And who forced Ukrainians to leave their homes? The Ukrainian government? No, the fighting did. And who is responsible for the fighting? There would be no fighting now if it were not for Russia's direct aid. So Russia is responsible for the people being forced from their homes, not Ukraine.

Steve

You are not serious about this?

[MikeyD]

Of course he is. Its the facts. The Ukraine conflict has been steered by the Kremlin from the first day. You think those 'green men' came from the moon?

[BlackMoria]

Or that all those tanks now running around in the separatist AO were bought from the local vehicle dealership with separatist government credit cards?