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ukraine military vs russia

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SAT images its cool, but more great facts are photos of destroyed Russian BTR-82AM, T-72B3, MTLB-6МА, upgraded BMD-2 with IR projector, graves of Pskovian airborns and answer of General Prosecutor Office, which recognized fact of death of Russian soldiers, but reject to explain details "reasoning of Russian Federation interests" And of course on Russian Government involvement point T-72B, MG "Pecheneg", sniper rifles "Vykhlop", MRO-A and many other specific Russian weapon, which many times seen on separatists photos.

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Yeah, I saw it. Two photos of SPGs near border. We can't see where exactly.

There are should be hundreds of such photos in case "Russian troops would be fighting and dying in Ukraine". I am sure, that NATO provide sattelite intel to Ukraine. Why not to publish some of photos with columns of BMD? BMD can be recognised from above. U.S. have sattelites, that can recognise shoulder straps.

SAT images its cool, but more great facts are photos of destroyed Russian BTR-82AM, T-72B3, MTLB-6МА, upgraded BMD-2 with IR projector, graves of Pskovian airborns and answer of General Prosecutor Office, which recognized fact of death of Russian soldiers, but reject to explain details "reasoning of Russian Federation interests" And of course on Russian Government involvement point T-72B, MG "Pecheneg", sniper rifles "Vykhlop", MRO-A and many other specific Russian weapon, which many times seen on separatists photos.

Proofs of weapon supplies.

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BTW, not everyone with a dissenting opinion is harassed or jailed. I have a large bookmark list of dissenting blogs by authors that do not attempt to hide their identity. They have been posting for years, and have not been beaten, jailed, etc. While there is certainly a lot to be desired in the realm of freedom of speech in this country - it is not the police state cracking down on anyone that dissents that seems to be portrayed in western news sources.

yes, but that is the way most repressive systems work, dissenting opinions are tolerated up to a certain point, but once they become too public or threatening, they are quickly shut down.

for example, Sergei Magnitsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Magnitsky

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Yeah, I saw it. Two photos of SPGs near border. We can't see where exactly.

There are should be hundreds of such photos in case "Russian troops would be fighting and dying in Ukraine". I am sure, that NATO provide sattelite intel to Ukraine. Why not to publish some of photos with columns of BMD? BMD can be recognised from above. U.S. have sattelites, that can recognise shoulder straps.

Proofs of weapon supplies.

small sampling of Russian troops in east Ukraine. Easy to find if you look:

these are all recent.

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small sampling of Russian troops in east Ukraine. Easy to find if you look:

these are all recent.

Why are they Russian? Hm, towed AT guns. Top end equipment. :)

Really, I read news, read different sources. Real things - few photos of T-72B3 and BTR-82A. (there I believe to Andrey-BT, personally I wouldn't distinguish T-72B3 from other T-72s) And VDV platoon, captured by Ukranians. They didn't resist, by the way.

If Russian army were there, noone caught them. Or real proofs weren't published by political reasons.

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You don't even need to take the American's word for it, just go to liveleak and try to identify the Russian vehicles. I haven't done that in a while, but a while ago I saw what looked like a BTR-80A/BTR-82A, which Ukraine doesn't have. I'm sure you can find more Russian vehicles, like the new tanks that entered Ukraine recently.

Russians been there so long they're likely to start showing on google maps.

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No, that is not what the Kremlin alleges, it is what reality shows. There are plenty of credible and legitimate activists (whom are not jailed, btw) but Lenka Vaska is not one of them. If you want to play conspiracy theorist you might think she was actually an agent of the Kremlin working to discredit dissident activism. That is how untrustworthy anything she says is.

It does appear she has a big credibility gap. However, we all must remember the Russian government inherited more than just buildings and ground from the old Soviet Union. It also inherited decades of experience with "dirty tricks". The sorts of things that Vladimir Putin was in charge of when he was a KGB officer. His inner circle is also top heavy with ex-KGB officers. To think that the current Russian government is not using old Soviet tricks, when the evidence is they clearly are (such as how they fake elections, file false counter charges in the UN, etc.) is foolish thinking.

One of the common trick is FSB funding "opposition" groups and "activists" to gather names to spy on. Another common trick is FSB "leaking" information to legitimate opposition and activists in order to discredit them.

It makes more sense for the FSB to discredit the people trying to tabulate Russian dead in Ukraine than putting them in jail. When an authoritarian regime puts an activist in jail it automatically legitimizes what the activist has said. But if the activist publishes names of people on a football team roster... well, that does serious damage even if 90% of the rest of the list is 100% accurate.

The Russian government has almost 100 years of experience doing these sorts of actions. They are *very* good at it. Many times they are very successful. So if you are good at something that works, you keep doing it... right?

I thought about this. :) Then she believes to any information, if GRU can "leak" fake information for her, then why SBU can't.

The SBU has been accused of "leaking" fake information before. It even happens in Democracies. Vice President Dick Cheney was on a TV interview program and was asked about his charges that Saddam was making weapons of mass destruction again. Cheney pointed to a newspaper article that cited "leaked" intelligence reports and said "see, the New York Times says it's true so it must be". Only after the damage was done did the truth come out that the information was never true and that the source of the "leak" was Dick Cheney's office.

It's an old trick.

I don't think that RT is less credible then CNN, for example.

RT is run by the Russian government and the Russian government is officially lying. RT will never say anything that the Russian government doesn't tell it to say.

As for its reporting, it is horrible. They have "experts" on their TV programming that are nearly randomly picked from the Internet. Some are people with mental health issues, but they say the things the Russian government wants Russia and the world to hear. So why does it matter that their "foreign affairs expert" is a part time teacher of young children with problem behavior in Salem, Mass with no higher education and zero job experience in foreign affairs?

RT is a state propaganda tool with no interest in the truth. CNN is not the same. There is a massive difference which, sadly, most Russians I have come into contact don't appreciate.

Steve

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I like the RT clips on youtube where their news presenters publicly refuse to present stories they've been fed and quit.

Also found that ARES document pretty interesting. Lots of T-72 in them military surplus stores...

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Why are they Russian? Hm, towed AT guns. Top end equipment. :)

Really, I read news, read different sources. Real things - few photos of T-72B3 and BTR-82A. (there I believe to Andrey-BT, personally I wouldn't distinguish T-72B3 from other T-72s) And VDV platoon, captured by Ukranians. They didn't resist, by the way.

If Russian army were there, noone caught them. Or real proofs weren't published by political reasons.

You are seeing only what you want to see. If you want to believe the official Russian government story, there is little that can be done to convince you since the evidence is OVERWHELMING already.

Here is a detailed report about Russian Federation weapons in Ukraine:

http://www.armamentresearch.com/ares-research-report-no-3-raising-red-flags-an-examination-of-arms-munitions-in-the-ongoing-conflict-in-ukraine-2014/

There are interviews by Russian citizens detailing their experiences in Ukraine. They are verified and they all sound similar. They have even been killed and captured. Cargo 200 shipments are also well documented.

On top of this Vladimir Putin admits that there are Russian military personnel in Ukraine. He says that they are "on vacation", but that is a joke. Nobody in military service is allowed a "vacation". Maybe 1-3 days off, but several weeks or months? Give me a break.

Please also don't forget that Putin, Lavrov, Churkin, etc. said to the TV cameras and journalists many, many times that Russian Army was not in Crimea even when a child could recognize the Russian Army equipment. Putin saying that the equipment could be purchased on eBay is also on the record. Then Putin said Russian military was in Crimea. Wow, big surprise there!

Why do you believe anything this man says?

Steve

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I like the RT clips on youtube where their news presenters publicly refuse to present stories they've been fed and quit.

I liked both of them :D

Also found that ARES document pretty interesting. Lots of T-72 in them military surplus stores...

I wish we had surplus stores like that here in the US!

As for documenting the lies of the Russian media, there is this website:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/russian-propaganda/

Here is an article about the UK thinking of revoking the broadcast license of RT because it is a propaganda organization and not a legitimate news organization:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/uk-regulator-threatens-rt-with-sanctions-for-biased-reporting/

When this crisis first started I did look at RT as a possible source of counter information. I quickly discovered how absolutely horrid its reporting standards were. Especially with all their unqualified "experts". There are more and better "experts" in this thread than on RT.

Steve

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When this crisis first started I did look at RT as a possible source of counter information. I quickly discovered how absolutely horrid its reporting standards were. Especially with all their unqualified "experts". There are more and better "experts" in this thread than on RT.

Steve

Several prominent members of RT resigned over the organisation's coverage and bias of Russian forces in Ukraine. How long before Putin seizes control of this organisation as well?

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Several prominent members of RT resigned over the organisation's coverage and bias of Russian forces in Ukraine. How long before Putin seizes control of this organisation as well?

It was always a Kremlin propaganda outlet, so they don't need to seize it :) Not surprisingly, since the crisis started RT has seen it's budget increased 41%. Why did it increase so much? Because it has a much bigger job to do now convincing people the world is flat instead of round. Here is a Russian independent media perspective on the increase in RT's budget:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-s-international-media-poisons-minds/508653.html

I lost track of all the new anti-media laws that the Kremlin has passed in the last year. Here is a short list off the top of my head:

1. Foreign investment in Russian media has been reduced to a small percentage.

2. Advertising is no longer allowed in most circumstances. This hurts independent media, but not the lavishly funded Kremlin controlled media. It's hard to broadcast a message if there is no money to pay for it!

3. The usual fake charges that result in specific media losing their licenses.

4. The requirement that all social media, including foreign based, store Russian citizen contributions on Russian servers which, not surprisingly, are accessible by FSB.

5. VKontakte (equivalent of Facebook), the source of many leaks of Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine, was just purchased by Mail.ru. Mail.ru is controlled by a close associate of Putin. Here's one article about this deal:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/mail-ru-takes-full-ownership-of-vkontakte-russias-largest-social-network/?_r=0

Anyway... this is getting very off topic.

The relevant point is that information about what is going on within Ukraine is cloudy. The official Russian position is riddled with easily proven lies, so as a whole any information tied to the Kremlin should be immediately suspected as disinformation. That's about the only clear line that can be drawn. Even the DPR/LPR leadership has more honesty about things going on. In fact, here is a report on the leaders saying, very directly, that they are being funded by the Russian government despite strong denials from the Kremlin:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/merkel-s-spokesman-raps-russia-after-report-on-aid-to-ukraine-rebels/511640.html

Steve

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RT is run by the Russian government and the Russian government is officially lying. RT will never say anything that the Russian government doesn't tell it to say.

As for its reporting, it is horrible. They have "experts" on their TV programming that are nearly randomly picked from the Internet. Some are people with mental health issues, but they say the things the Russian government wants Russia and the world to hear. So why does it matter that their "foreign affairs expert" is a part time teacher of young children with problem behavior in Salem, Mass with no higher education and zero job experience in foreign affairs?

RT is a state propaganda tool with no interest in the truth. CNN is not the same. There is a massive difference which, sadly, most Russians I have come into contact don't appreciate.

Steve

Fully agree on this, Fox is more on the level of RT ;-) Be it for different reasons. Although also CNN is obviously pushing an agenda other than genuinely informing the people of real events. As are most media outlets. I don't really watch any 'news' anymore because of it, or take it with a good hill worth of salt.

In The Netherlands I have found a gem 'De Correspondent': crowd funded online medium, no 'news' just well researched and verified long reads. All used references are linked. Had some good stories about The Ukraine as well. Costs about a big CM bundle per year ;)

They seem to do translations as well:

https://decorrespondent.nl/en

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You are seeing only what you want to see. If you want to believe the official Russian government story, there is little that can be done to convince you since the evidence is OVERWHELMING already.

Here is a detailed report about Russian Federation weapons in Ukraine:

http://www.armamentresearch.com/ares-research-report-no-3-raising-red-flags-an-examination-of-arms-munitions-in-the-ongoing-conflict-in-ukraine-2014/

Please also don't forget that Putin, Lavrov, Churkin, etc. said to the TV cameras and journalists many, many times that Russian Army was not in Crimea even when a child could recognize the Russian Army equipment. Putin saying that the equipment could be purchased on eBay is also on the record. Then Putin said Russian military was in Crimea. Wow, big surprise there!

Why do you believe anything this man says?

Steve

Yes, I know. Probably, there is a misunderstanding. Weapon supplies, free pass to volunteers and "volunteers" - that's true. Direct full scale military intervention - false. That is my point.

Personally I think that where special forces, but you wouldn't distinguish them from DPR/LPR forces. And probably some VDV forces were maneuvering close to border, to press out Ukrainians. (they managed to shell Russian town and break border several times, giving a reason) Due to mistake of a junior officer they were captured, that was shown on Russian TV. May be some of them were killed. And indirect fire support, I guess. But limited, as there are only 2 photos of SPG fire platoon.

Every goverment lies. :) What about RT - may be they are less professional than CNN, I don't watch both of them. But CNN also advocate U.S. goverment politics.

On top of this Vladimir Putin admits that there are Russian military personnel in Ukraine. He says that they are "on vacation", but that is a joke. Nobody in military service is allowed a "vacation". Maybe 1-3 days off, but several weeks or months? Give me a break.

Zaharchenko, not Putin.

Well, there is 28 day vacation every year. But yes, you are right.

There are interviews by Russian citizens detailing their experiences in Ukraine. They are verified and they all sound similar. They have even been killed and captured. Cargo 200 shipments are also well documented.

There are a lot of volunteers. Noone denies even officially.

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Western media also criticises the current and past governments. That does not happen on RT.

RT- I catch it because it does show military clips that are not on other channels. But the shear level and constant output of anti-western does concern me. Especially as they dress up wacky conspiracy theories as documentary-news.

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Volunteers that are allowed to take along their service equipment are not volunteers on vacation. Besides, I have seen plenty of video evidence of (limited) full Russian units in Ukraine. Source: the interwebs.

Apart from Russian military intervention it is naive to think the 'West' was not actively supporting Maidan and subsequent happenings.

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Western media also criticises the current and past governments. That does not happen on RT.

RT- I catch it because it does show military clips that are not on other channels. But the shear level and constant output of anti-western does concern me. Especially as they dress up wacky conspiracy theories as documentary-news.

That doesn't happen on RT because it is a government mouthpiece, I'm convinced it was created solely to troll foreigners anyway. I'm not aware of anyone who watches this station, I'm not even sure I have it. Believe it or not we do have news that is critical of the current government, though I must admit I, like most my age and younger (I'm nearly 40) don't watch the news, other than sports maybe. You also need to look at Russian news from the frame of reference of a Russian - it is hard to find a Russian who is not cynical about mainstream news or one who believes they are getting the truth or at least the entire truth. I don't think there has been a time in this country's history where the news has been trustworthy or trusted. Discounting and not trusting the news is part of the culture.

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That doesn't happen on RT because it is a government mouthpiece, I'm convinced it was created solely to troll foreigners anyway. I'm not aware of anyone who watches this station, I'm not even sure I have it. Believe it or not we do have news that is critical of the current government, though I must admit I, like most my age and younger (I'm nearly 40) don't watch the news, other than sports maybe. You also need to look at Russian news from the frame of reference of a Russian - it is hard to find a Russian who is not cynical about mainstream news or one who believes they are getting the truth or at least the entire truth. I don't think there has been a time in this country's history where the news has been trustworthy or trusted. Discounting and not trusting the news is part of the culture.

Two things

1. Yes, I believe that most Russians have a distinct overall culture; but also many sub and geographical cultures. Which is another reason why I'd like to hear more from everyday Russians about their perspectives.

2. Reassuring to hear that critical thinking is flourishing. I can understand it being strong in Russia, give its history. That said, having critical thoughts and having the ability to demonstrate them publically can be worlds apart.

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Western media also criticises the current and past governments. That does not happen on RT.

RT- I catch it because it does show military clips that are not on other channels. But the shear level and constant output of anti-western does concern me. Especially as they dress up wacky conspiracy theories as documentary-news.

This is true. British media often rinses our Afgahn performance.

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It remains to be seen how many of the Russian toys work, and how much of the budget disappeared in to dachas, good vodka, London apartments, and activities that can't be discussed on a putatively family website. Their recent efforts at SLBMs are not encouraging. Also the fact that Putin is not already in Kiev.

On a less speculative note Putin's cut off of western food imports has to the dumbest move by an authoritarian leader in decades. Didn't he learn ANYTHING from the demise of the USSR? And now the Russian middle class knows what its missing. Black bread and potatoes are going to wear thin. Even if they can come up with enough of it.

Russia is now very economically aligned with china.

Things have changed since the demise of USSR.

By trading with other countries not aligned with the Wests / Natos strategy they are trying to become economically secure.

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Yes, I know. Probably, there is a misunderstanding. Weapon supplies, free pass to volunteers and "volunteers" - that's true. Direct full scale military intervention - false. That is my point.

And it's wrong :D There is plenty of evidence of full scale Russian Army and FSB (OMON fought at the airport recently) units in the Ukraine. Russian soldiers have documented this, including describing switching uniforms, painting over tactical symbols, and other things.

Also, it is impossible to have 10s of thousands of organized "volunteers" rotating into Ukraine on a regular basis and then immediately conducting combat operations. The logistics of such a thing is physically impossible. Not to mention all of the weapons and vehicles that are absolutely, without a doubt, Russian Federation military.

The biggest evidence of direct Russian military intervention happened around August 15th when the Russian counter offensive started. Two major attacks happened from Russian soil into Ukrainian territory that had never been held by "separatists". Two other large groups of Russian forces crossed into Ukraine through Luhansk, with one going to Luhansk city and the second towards Torez.

All of this is *absolutely* impossible to be spontaneous. It was extremely well planned, extremely well coordinated, and lavishly equipped with perhaps more armored vehicles than Ukraine had in the front line at the time. It is absolutely impossible for "volunteers" to conduct operations on their own. The *only* organization capable of this is the Russian military. And the only source of forces for such an operation are regular Russian military units. Which Russian soldiers confirm, so I don't know why there is doubt.

Every goverment lies. :)

Yes, but some do it a lot more and about a lot more fundamental things. And I will give Putin and Lavrov credit. Until this crisis they were very careful to not outright lie. Stretch the truth to the point of breaking it? Absolutely. But straight out lie? That is new and a lot of experts on Russian government behavior were quick to point this out.

What about RT - may be they are less professional than CNN, I don't watch both of them. But CNN also advocate U.S. goverment politics.

Incorrect. CNN reports on US government politics. It is often extremely critical of them, never an advocate except for "opinion" pieces. There is no funding or control of content by the US government. Sure, CNN can be braindead in their reporting, but that is unfortunately normal for media all over the world. There's a huge difference between bad reporting on a war and deliberate misinformation.

As someone else said, Fox News is the closest to RT. However, unlike RT it is usually critical of anything the US government does or does not do if the Democrats have anything to do with it. It also is generally supportive of anything that Republicans do. This is not because the US government pays them to say bad things about them :) It is because Fox News is in the tradition of older media which is to be biased instead of "fair and balanced". In theory there is a liberal news network that is equally powerful to bias people in the other direction, but in reality Fox is massively better at it than others.

Like others, I do not watch mainstream news. It is largely a waste of time. Plus, I don't have cable/satellite TV :)

Zaharchenko, not Putin.

I thought Putin also said that if Russian soldiers were in Ukraine they were on "vacation". I know he also said that the captured 76th Pskov soldiers "got lost" and accidentally crossed the border. What a laugh :D

Various leaders of DPR and LPR have stated that Russian government and Russian armed forces are involved, not just the latest batch.

Steve

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this may be a little of topic but in black sea i will ukrainian forces have night vision

It's entirely off-topic and was answered already in another, more appropriate thread.

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