ukraine military vs russia

[DreDay]

Actually, there is. The problem you might have is the only source of information that this is true is coming from Ukrainian sources. If you do not believe SBU and field command reports, then of course that presents a problem. Especially because there's no alternative source worth mentioning at the moment. Russia says it is not involved at all and there are no trustworthy journalists operating in the separatist side. OSCE is supposed to be monitoring the truce, but their observers have been shot at by separatists and their observation drones disrupted by Russian (not separatist) counter measures.

[DreDay]

I am glad we are mostly in agreement, but you are correct we are very much in disagreement on this point.

I do not believe the majority of people in Donbass supported the change in power in Kiev. Partly because they were subjected to massive propaganda on Russian state media that deliberately distorted what was happening in Kiev before and after Maidan. However, based on what I've seen, the majority of people in Donbass do not support a military confrontation on their soil regardless of their opinion of the Kiev government. Which means Russia is waging a war on Ukrainian soil against the Ukrainian government without the popular support of the local people. Especially now that the local people have probably discovered that the initial Russian propaganda was not a fair reflection of reality and the forces that Russia deliberately unleashed on them are far worse.

And let's not forget that the majority of people in Donbass have fled the war zone.

No, it shouldn't be subjective. Russia planned this war in Ukraine for years ahead of time. They put agents in place and established close ties with Ukrainian oligarchs, politicians, and criminals (often one in the same!). They were put there explicitly in case the government in Kiev, the one Russia was indirectly controlling, finally managed to fall to political and social forces opposed to it. The will and well being of the Donbass people was *NEVER* part of the equation. NEVER. This was always about Russian goals being achieved by any means necessary.

The situation in eastern Ukraine is not the result or the fault of Kiev government policy. Yet it has to respond to it. Any nation state that allows a foreign government to invade its territory has a legal and moral obligation to resist to the extent possible. That is the primary purpose of the national government.

Which is to say that the people of Donbass are caught in the middle between a foreign government that is deliberately using them for their own political purposes, and the domestic government that is obligated to oppose the action. If you don't think Kiev would rather be focused on fixing it's economy and governance than fighting a war on top of that, you are greatly mistaken.

Steve

Honestly Steve, I think that we see things very differently on this matter and I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this. I will try stick to discussing the game itself from now on and I will do my best to offer my support and any possible help (if ever needed) to make it into another Battlefront staple.

[Battlefront.com]

I get your point, and I certainly don't care to defend Russian misinformation, but what about "The civilians in Lugansk had died due to their own MANPAD locking on to the nearby AC unit", rather than a strafing run by a Ukrainian SU-25 that was documented by multiple sources? Is that disinformation or misinformation?

Disinformation. And it was a long time ago during the period, as I said, that the Ukrainian government information was less reliable.

Note that governments don't like to report screw ups accurately. Early in Afghanistan the US did an airstrike on a wedding party that it thought was terrorists because a rival tribe, which they idiotically trusted, fed them bad information on purpose. It took quite a while for the US government to admit that they screwed up.

So yeah, I view all government statements with a degree of skepticism.

Which world do you live in my friend? I love my country to death, but by your definition our government is extremely irresponsible, and so is any other one that cares enough to protect its national interests to protect... Russians are not that different from us in this sense and all that Soviet legacy BS has very little to do with it. If our power elites decide that we need to escalate our commitment Vietnam - we get the Gulf o Tokin BS. If they decide that we need to invade Iraq - we get the WMD BS. And you know what, I get it - that's how the geopolitics are played; but let's not pretend that we play that game any differently from others. I just hope that we play it better...

The Soviet legacy is not "BS". And the "game" is played differently in Soviet legacy governments compared to others. Sure, there are similarities as well as differences, but the same? Definitely not. The specific issues in Ukraine and Russia are tied most closely to their history and not the history of Washington or London. And their history is Soviet.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I certainly do not consider SBU to be a credible source, any more so than FSB or any other one of their counterparts... SBU reports are definitely worth considering, but can you really call them credible?

I found the intercept of Nuland's call by the FSB credible. I found the SBU's intercepts of Brezler about the downing of MH-17 credible. In fact, I found a lot of the SBU's intercepts credible. SBU itself? It's an intelligence agency so for sure it's got to be factored in.

I am not sure that I follow you here... What evidence is there in support 76th VDV BTGs operating in East Ukraine prior to the August offensive?

Depends on when you consider the counter offensive to have started. And that is a point of debate since there is no definitive information about when it started. In my opinion there was two phases of which the 76th was part of the first phase. And that was to slow down Ukrainian advances. It failed and that's when Russia upped the ante.

Agreed. The real problem is separating those nuggets from the pile of crap. Honestly, it takes a better man than me to have the patience and objectivity to do that.

This is what I do for a living, so if I didn't have the patience for it I'd doing something else. Preferably involving brewing beer

Honestly Steve, I think that we see things very differently on this matter and I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this. I will try stick to discussing the game itself from now on and I will do my best to offer my support and any possible help (if ever needed) to make it into another Battlefront staple.

Noted! The last thought I'll give you here is a simple question:

Would there be a massive armed conflict in eastern Ukraine without the direct assistance, direction, and actions of the Russian government?

The answer is definitely "No". Small scale armed conflicts? Perhaps. But nothing involving 10s of thousands of armed men, tanks, grads, and MANPADs. Therefore, the question about what the people of Donbass would be doing now is moot because they were never given a say in the matter.

Steve

[DreDay]

Disinformation. And it was a long time ago during the period, as I said, that the Ukrainian government information was less reliable.

Note that governments don't like to report screw ups accurately. Early in Afghanistan the US did an airstrike on a wedding party that it thought was terrorists because a rival tribe, which they idiotically trusted, fed them bad information on purpose. It took quite a while for the US government to admit that they screwed up.

So yeah, I view all government statements with a degree of skepticism.

The Soviet legacy is not "BS". And the "game" is played differently in Soviet legacy governments compared to others. Sure, there are similarities as well as differences, but the same? Definitely not. The specific issues in Ukraine and Russia are tied most closely to their history and not the history of Washington or London. And their history is Soviet.

Steve

As tempted as I am to reply to your (well-stated) points; I will stick to my promise and not get into the discussion of politics or history here any more. I very much respect your perspective, although I also disagree with a fair amount of your analysis... but I will stick to respectfully agreeing to disagree with you in this thread. Please feel free to PM me if you want to have a little friendly debate. It would be my pleasure to carry this on in a different format...

[Hister]

I call this a noble backing-off mask when you are in a losing position and can't admit yourself you can't provide a solid answer.

You would do much better to provide actual arguments, solid stuff like Steve does and yet you don't. Not the first time I see such thing on the forums and won't be the last.

You yourself hint you are emotionally invested in this and rational mind and emotions don't go together well.

Steve's geopolitical analitical mind is a rare commodity. The fact he does this for a living makes him terribly upper-handed to the rest of debaters here. Read what he said, see if you can disprove any of his statements with solid arguments and only then do it. If you just shoot her randomly you run the risk of getting owned by Steve as he did to many opposers here already.

Being Russian and Ukrainian makes you lrss objective since you are,pefsonally involved and carried away by emotions. Outside observers have a huge advantage when it comes to being able to analyse info provided more objectively.

You guys can open a new thread in which american geopolitics will be discussed. Then Steve will have a harder time staying objective.Still seeing his performance here I do believe he will hold firm and provide solid info.

Steve, it's interesting to see Putin talk about how the "West wanted to hurt Russia like it influenced the dissolution of Yugoslavia." Being born in Yugoslavia and interested in the reasons why this state fell apart I seriously doubt West had much part in it if at all. Putin is using one of the many conspiracy theories that you can find in ex commi/socialist states. People there still tend to distruss official news so such environment is a fertile ground for conspiracies. Eastern Europe is totally riddled with them.

[Battlefront.com]

I call this a noble backing-off mask when you are in a losing position and can't admit yourself you can't provide a solid answer.

You would do much better to provide actual arguments, solid stuff like Steve does and yet you don't. Not the first time I see such thing on the forums and won't be the last.

It is a common problem in debates here, but overall the quality of debate is better than elsewhere. I don't even look at the MilitaryPhotos forums any more because it's usually just a bunch of super aggressive, abusive, disrespectful frag fest postings. And that's one of the nicer places I've visited

You yourself hint you are emotionally invested in this and rational mind and emotions don't go together well.

Correct. I am not emotionally vested in what is going on, though I do care deeply about it since it does affect the world and the world affects me. I was fortunate enough to grow up at the tail end of the Cold War in a highly progressive school/community that did not teach me to view Soviet and Warsaw Pact citizens as the enemy. Not surprisingly because my community had plenty of refugees from those countries. One of my best friend's parents survived the Nazi concentration camps, my closest teacher in high school is married to a Russian refugee, a had the hots for a Lithuanian girl (damn, just friends!), my best professor in college fled Ukraine as a teen, one of my (now) wife's best friend is Latvian (now there's a fun wedding to go to!!), an employee of mine was smuggled out of Poland in the boot of a car, etc., etc., etc. I also lived in a foreign country and traveled throughout Europe, including a 2 week solo trip through Yugoslavia a few months before it descended into war. My current job and hobbies put me in daily contact with people around the world, including (from time to time) places like Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. I am thankful that I have these experienced behind me.

You guys can open a new thread in which american geopolitics will be discussed. Then Steve will have a harder time staying objective.Still seeing his performance here I do believe he will hold firm and provide solid info.

I have spent probably close to 1000 hours monitoring, researching, and debating the events in Ukraine so far. That's about 2-3 hours per day, every day, since February. This comes on top of 25+ years of studying European history in detail, especially WW2 and the Cold War. It doesn't mean everything I think or say is 100% correct or accurate, but it for sure means what I think or say is not pulled out of thin air.

Steve, it's interesting to see Putin talk about how the "West wanted to hurt Russia like it influenced the dissolution of Yugoslavia." Being born in Yugoslavia and interested in the reasons why this state fell apart I seriously doubt West had much part in it if at all.

Puno vam Hvala I still have a HDZ pin that someone gave me in Dubrovnik in the summer of 1990 just prior to the elections that (basically) started the war. I went to Yugoslavija in part because of it's history. I knew full well what happened in WW2 was not buried and forgotten. Even as a young student with minimal grasp of Serbo-Croat and only decent German language skills I ran into it all over the place. It was especially apparent in Ljublujana where I stayed for a few days with a bunch of people I met. I heard an earful about how the best thing that could happen for Slovenija was getting as far away from the rest of Yugoslavija as possible. It all boiled down to cultural differences and economics (IIRC at the time Slovenija was 11% of the total population and produced 25% of the GDP). Oh, and Laibach

Anyway, I just call it as I see it. I do the same about my own country, which earned me death threats and a Marine SSGT calling me a "traitor" in 2004 when I argued the war in Iraq was a crock of crap and headed to major disaster. Ah, fun times!

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Don't know whether or not the info at the link is true, but I see no fundamental reason why a nation whose former leader, Stalin, made sure a bunch of mass graves of his troops in Russia during the GPW were planted over (and maps modified) to hide them and who systematically lied about the Battle of Berlin losses would have an issue with making embarrassing, morale destroying, instability generating corpses go away by in situ interment, as described here.

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2014/09/06/19497.shtml

Regards,

John Kettler

[DMS]

Again, you are conveniently ignoring other facts. Let me spell this out specifically:

1. The presence of the 76th Pskov (and other Russian military units) in Ukraine was reported by activists

...

10. The Pskov politician manages to get a letter from the Russian government that states that the dead from the 76th Pskov died in combat while operating as a unit of the Russian Army. But it refused to say where because of national security.

I told about events before August.

That Russian sources are not credible, that activists are paid for such things. They regularly gave false or distorted information about local Russian events, such as elections or street protests.

And about vacationers told Bolotov, not Putin.

An opinion that is bolstered by supported facts that Steve has pretty clearly laid out over the past 20 pages, if you're going to try and disprove it your going to have to do better than "Ukraine lies as much as Russia".

Most of facts sounds like "were reported..." Ok, may be my English language is poor to explain.

In short - I heard about most of all that "reports", Ukrainian and made by Russian pro-western activists. They were discussed and considered to be bad (sometimes good) made fakes. There is a small piece of true - as probably there were some actions near border before August. But reporting of that piece is not enough for ultra-patriotic Ukrainians, they lie a lot, sometimes basing on something, more often without any base.

"Ukraine lies as much as Russia"

Ukraine doesn't say true at all, when they speak about military operations.

Ukrainian media language:

"Two Russian special brigades attacking our positions!"= "Things go bad, we may retreat soon"

"Our forces suffered some losses, 2 KIA, 10 WIA" = Multiply by 3

"Russians lost 100 men KIA, 50 WIA!" = "Soldiers said, that our artillery hit someone"

"Tochka-U missile killed 300 Russian soldiers!"= "We managed to launch Tochka missile"

Militia at least report nothing, it they have nothing to report. Like now, about actions in the airport. May be because they have no money for a crowd of "journalists", that don't want to be mobilised and have to "fight" in internet. What about Russian media, they rarely report about military operations, more about shelling civilians and refugees.

[Hister]

Ha Steve, you are right about Yugoslavia. Number one reason the way I see it was bad economics which then awakened national sentiments which then in turn used a lot of historical sentiments and the crack down begun. Yugoslavia wasn't self-sustainable. It was using it's neutrality status to pump money from the West which it needed for a generous social program it led. When Eastern block collapsed Yugoslavia's founding collapsed with it. And **** hit the fan.

I'm 100% sure that if there weren't any money issues Yugoslavia would hold. Sure not without problems but it would remain teritorially firm. Hell, money problems can even cause USA to plunge into a civil war. Cultural differences between different regions are quite pronounced. Defenitely less then they were in Yugoslavia at the time of the breakup but still enough for such a process to get into motion.

Enlightened dictator Tito didn't appoint a successor who could hold his playground after his death, especially in such grave situations as a collapse of Communism and Eastern block. It was assumed as if cold war will last indefenitely. Poor planning.

I hosted a newly wed couple from Lvov, Ukraine at the end of August. I ofcourse was interested in the war aspects but also in how their society works. I was appalled to learn it was worse then what I imagined. Corruption and black market philosophy was a staple trademark of Ukraine. About the war they dismissed it as going to end soon and they haven't felt threatened with it in the far western part of their state.

Guy was telling me how whole extended family tried to provide their drafted family member with basic stuff like tea cattle up to battlefront items like vests.

At the time they probably didn't know about Russian counteroffensive being on the road trip for some time with their overburdened Chinese-made motor bike.

If this war is good for anything at least it awaken Ukrainian society that was in a state of limbo ever since Soviet union fell.

The problem now is I don't see how this conflict could end. Many people in Donbass region see Ukraine and it's government as the sole reason for their suffering. And this position won't wain any time soon.

Edit: You are welcome to re-visit Slovenia. Hard economic recession since 2008 that hasn't run out of it's course yet has caused people here to idealise Yugoslavian times. Quite an irony considering how bad people wanted to get out of it back then when you were visiting. Fortunately young people tend to look forward instead of into the past (a prominent cultural behaviour observed throughout whole Eastern Europe).

[Na Vaske]

I told about events before August.

That Russian sources are not credible, that activists are paid for such things. They regularly gave false or distorted information about local Russian events, such as elections or street protests.

And about vacationers told Bolotov, not Putin.

Most of facts sounds like "were reported..." Ok, may be my English language is poor to explain.

In short - I heard about most of all that "reports", Ukrainian and made by Russian pro-western activists. They were discussed and considered to be bad (sometimes good) made fakes. There is a small piece of true - as probably there were some actions near border before August. But reporting of that piece is not enough for ultra-patriotic Ukrainians, they lie a lot, sometimes basing on something, more often without any base.

Ukraine doesn't say true at all, when they speak about military operations.

Ukrainian media language:

"Two Russian special brigades attacking our positions!"= "Things go bad, we may retreat soon"

"Our forces suffered some losses, 2 KIA, 10 WIA" = Multiply by 3

"Russians lost 100 men KIA, 50 WIA!" = "Soldiers said, that our artillery hit someone"

"Tochka-U missile killed 300 Russian soldiers!"= "We managed to launch Tochka missile"

Militia at least report nothing, it they have nothing to report. Like now, about actions in the airport. May be because they have no money for a crowd of "journalists", that don't want to be mobilised and have to "fight" in internet. What about Russian media, they rarely report about military operations, more about shelling civilians and refugees.

Another problem I have come across is translation/interpretation. I read or hear a statement in the original language and completely understand the intended meaning, then I see it in English interpreted incorrectly. BBC has even issued retractions on more than one occasion because of poor translations. One major reason for this is that these people (Kiev paramilitaries, separatists, civilians being interviewed etc.) aren't exactly speaking Pushkin's Russian and that combined with using a lot of colloquialisms and military jargon - so much meaning and context is being lost in translation and a lot of misunderstanding is occurring.

Back in maybe May, before the media (outside of Russia) became aware of what Груз 200 meant, I saw it reported as 200 soldiers killed on more than one occasion.

[Hister]

Oh and btw, Slovenia was indeed a workhorse of Yugoslavia. Trend continues today with the statistic saying Slovenians in general work longer then Germans and even Japanese. We are busy bees. Our problem the way I see it is irationality. What good does working all the time do when there is no smart plan to where you want to head with all this work? And that is exactly why we DO belong to the Balkans. Sure we are somewhere in the middle but defenitely sport notorious Balkan cultural elements. It's funny to see some Slovenians being offended if they get labelled as Balkanians. Geographically speaking we defenitely are and many cultural aspects confirm the notion too.

As for the number "25 % of GDP", where did you get it from? I got in contact with a guy who was a head Slovenian banking figure at the time and he couldn't provide any concrete number since finances at the time were not transparent at all. 25% mus thus be only an estimate. Slovenia profited from being in Yugoslavia 'cos it got cheap resources from,which it produced final products which it could sell throughoutwhole Yugoslavia. Sure lots of taxes remained in Beograd but overall positive economical effects outweighted the negatives. So the number one reason Slovenians stated at the time and still state to this day was/is false. I can already see how real reasons for seceeding for Ukrainian separatists will not be discussed amongst them.

[Jargotn]

Ukrainian media language:

"Two Russian special brigades attacking our positions!"= "Things go bad, we may retreat soon"

"Our forces suffered some losses, 2 KIA, 10 WIA" = Multiply by 3

"Russians lost 100 men KIA, 50 WIA!" = "Soldiers said, that our artillery hit someone"

"Tochka-U missile killed 300 Russian soldiers!"= "We managed to launch Tochka missile"

All of these examples are examples of misinformation. There is a basic truth behind every statement:

1. We are being attacked by strong enemy forces. We don't know who they are, but, since they fight better than militia, we think that they are special brigades from russia. Because they are so strong we may retreat soon.

2. We got hit. I, in my position as media guy was told that there were 2 KIA and 10 WIA. I'll say that because that's what I know. Those numbers might or might not be true, but it's the information I got.

Same for the other statements. There is a truth hidden somewhere. Compare that to russian information (No russian regulars in the ukraine) and you realise why it's importent to understand the difference between disinformation and misinformation.

Militia at least report nothing, it they have nothing to report. Like now, about actions in the airport. May be because they have no money for a crowd of "journalists", that don't want to be mobilised and have to "fight" in internet. What about Russian media, they rarely report about military operations, more about shelling civilians and refugees.

I don't think saying "they have nothing to report" is a true statement. As far as I know the war in the Ukraine is not summarizable with "Nothing new in the east (west?)." There is something happening all the time. Regarding the russian media, I don't think they don't report about military operations because they don't want to spread misinformation. They follow a different agenda. They try to convince their viewers that "shelling civilians and refugees" is happening and try to have a justification and more popular support for the actions in ukraine. If they were to report about military operations, what would they say? They can't say that russian volunteers died and they can't say that the seperatists have problems.

[Battlefront.com]

I told about events before August.

OK, I will do some more research. I was talking about before the counter offensive, which I believe started around the 15th of August. But as I said, there is plenty of room for debate because nobody knows exactly when the counter offensive started.

That Russian sources are not credible, that activists are paid for such things.

This is the standard response I see from Russians. They wave their hand and dismiss all (or nearly all) Ukrainian information as false because it is not backed up by verifiable facts, yet the dismissals themselves are not backed up by any verifiable counter facts.

Most of facts sounds like "were reported..." Ok, may be my English language is poor to explain.

It is obviously very difficult to verify information when:

1. There is almost no freedom of the press in Russia

2. The Russian government is lying on a daily basis

3. The Russian government is spending hundreds of millions Dollars on disinformation

4. The Internet promotes gossip

5. Ukraine's government started out with a credibility problem

The question of if x Russian unit is in Ukraine could be cleared up very quickly if the official Russian government position was not a lie or there was true freedom of the press. However, we have to work with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be. Therefore, until Russia starts to tell the truth we will have to sort through a lot of bad information to find the good.

In short - I heard about most of all that "reports", Ukrainian and made by Russian pro-western activists. They were discussed and considered to be bad (sometimes good) made fakes. There is a small piece of true - as probably there were some actions near border before August. But reporting of that piece is not enough for ultra-patriotic Ukrainians, they lie a lot, sometimes basing on something, more often without any base.

The same can be said about Russians trying to dispute the information. The standard response from the pro-Russian side is Ukrainian information is "fake" or "propaganda". Sometimes there are specific reasons given, but to me they don't seem very good most of the time.

What is a more believable story... that Russia is content to let criminals and "volunteers" settle it's most important national and international priority without any Russian involvement or that because Russia is so invested in destabilizing and carving up Ukraine that it obviously must have its military on the ground? Given that Russia invaded Crimea with regular military only days after the change in power, and lied about it, I say that the answer should be pretty obvious. Especially because even you believe the August counter offensive was a Russian military operation.

Ukraine doesn't say true at all, when they speak about military operations.

Ukrainian media language:

"Two Russian special brigades attacking our positions!"= "Things go bad, we may retreat soon"

"Our forces suffered some losses, 2 KIA, 10 WIA" = Multiply by 3

"Russians lost 100 men KIA, 50 WIA!" = "Soldiers said, that our artillery hit someone"

"Tochka-U missile killed 300 Russian soldiers!"= "We managed to launch Tochka missile"

Some of these things are from non-credible sources. The separatists have also claimed that Ukraine was using Tochka-U and other large missiles against civilian targets. They also made claims of chemical and White Phosphorous attacks too. So I think some of the bad Ukrainian information comes from bad separatist information.

A lot of the official Ukrainian military statements have proven false. Many of them can be attributed to standard "fog of war". You'd hear the same types of bad information in Russian defense ministry if they were reporting on the war at all.

Some of the bad information is deliberate. But often I see the really bad information coming from non-official government sources. Loud mouth politicians all over the world tend to be bad sources of information, and Ukrainian Rada Deputies are no different.

The Internet is, as always, full of bad information. And that bad information is not purely Ukrainian. I've seen Russians convinced that Ukraine has suffered 10s of thousands of dead and that Kiev is successfully suppressing this information. I discount probably 90% of what I read from non-verifiable sources as total fake, the other 10% ranging from "grain of truth" to "true".

Militia at least report nothing, it they have nothing to report. Like now, about actions in the airport. May be because they have no money for a crowd of "journalists", that don't want to be mobilised and have to "fight" in internet.

You obviously don't check out the various separatist "news agencies" very closely. They have been posting tons of YouTube videos of their "glorious" attacks on the airport. And the separatist media is very well funded by separatist Ukrainian and Russian ultra nationalist money. I don't think the Russian government has a need to contribute money, but maybe it is. I don't know.

What about Russian media, they rarely report about military operations, more about shelling civilians and refugees.

That has been true of the "mainstream" Russian media since the start. That is because the Russian message has always been that the separatists are poor, pro-Russian patriots being murdered by the all powerful Ukrainian army and foreign mercenaries. This is not the same for the separatist and ultranationalist reporting. LifeNews has been responsible for a large amount of the early footage of dead Ukrainian soldiers, complete with all sorts of bragging by the pro-Russian fighters.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

There is a truth hidden somewhere. Compare that to russian information (No russian regulars in the ukraine) and you realise why it's importent to understand the difference between disinformation and misinformation.

Very true, thanks. Plus, as I keep saying... in a war between two nation states you are supposed to have the ability to balance the information from both governments against each other. This is impossible to do with this war because Russia refuses to admit it is even waging war, no matter how obvious a lie that is. Which means we only have the Ukrainian and Western sources to draw from. And we all know that the standard Russian position on anything out of NATO or the West is that it is "propaganda" and "lies". It's been like that since long before this war and so it is expected.

I don't think saying "they have nothing to report" is a true statement. As far as I know the war in the Ukraine is not summarizable with "Nothing new in the east (west?)." There is something happening all the time.

I find many of the Russian positions to be internally illogical. It is easy to verify that there is combat going on daily. Even the OSCE, with its pathetic showing in this conflict, verifies this. The separatists are known "braggarts" when they inflict casualties on Ukrainian forces. So on a day when Ukraine says it took 40 casualties, why no bragging from the separatists about their success? Instead, the separatists denny they suffered hundreds of casualties in the process and gained no territory. To my experienced eye, this indicates that the Ukrainian information is more likely true than false. To a pro-separaist eye, it is conveniently dismissed as Ukrainian propaganda.

Regarding the russian media, I don't think they don't report about military operations because they don't want to spread misinformation. They follow a different agenda. They try to convince their viewers that "shelling civilians and refugees" is happening and try to have a justification and more popular support for the actions in ukraine. If they were to report about military operations, what would they say? They can't say that russian volunteers died and they can't say that the seperatists have problems.

Exactly. The Russian government narrative has been consistent since the very start. Maidan = Western funded trouble makers and Nazis. The corrupt government was thrown out of power = Nazi coup. Armed groups took over police stations and government buildings = anti-fascist citizens. Every single civilian casualty = genocide by Ukrainian fascists.

So on and so forth.

I will say that the popular Russian media has toned down the "fascist" and "genocide" crap over the past few months. The problem with ridiculously distorted facts is you can only repeat them for so long before people start to realize how badly they are being misinformed.

Like Hitler in 1941, Putin planned only for a short war against Ukraine. Many of the tactics used would have worked fine if the Ukrainian government collapsed in the Spring or there had been a true uprising in the east and south. But neither happened and so, like Hitler, Putin has found himself with no long term plan or ability to secure his war aims. And not surprisingly, the war for Russia is not going well. It took 4 years for the Third Reich's action against the Soviet Union to completely collapse. I don't think it will take that long this time around.

Steve

[lordhedgwich]

"It is obviously very difficult to verify information when:

1. There is almost no freedom of the press in Russia

2. The Russian government is lying on a daily basis

3. The Russian government is spending hundreds of millions Dollars on disinformation

4. The Internet promotes gossip

5. Ukraine's government started out with a credibility problem"

I feel like the U.S. government lies just as much as the Russian government. just throwing that out there

[sburke]

"It is obviously very difficult to verify information when:

1. There is almost no freedom of the press in Russia

2. The Russian government is lying on a daily basis

3. The Russian government is spending hundreds of millions Dollars on disinformation

4. The Internet promotes gossip

5. Ukraine's government started out with a credibility problem"

I feel like the U.S. government lies just as much as the Russian government. just throwing that out there

that may be a subjective feeling about political slant and some of it well deserved, but you can actually watch our gov't proceedings on c-span and see the imbeciles throwing sh*t at each other. The Gov't accounting office is actually pretty good at discerning the truth on funding issues. We have NPR founded by our gov't but currently only getting about 10% of it's funding by the feds that is a god news source.

In addition I can vote and my vote counts. I have no little green men guarding voting facilities, I can protest in the street peacefully and generally not worry about repercussions etc. No we are not even remotely like Russia.

[dan/california]

The U.S. government is a very long way from perfect, or even good. The Russian government however is denying reality on an entirely different scale. A "the sky is green" level of denial. Putin seems to find it amusing, it demonstrates his level of control. I think it also results in him being given a lot of bad information. That will cost him sooner or later.

[womble]

I feel like the U.S. government lies just as much as the Russian government. just throwing that out there

Do you think the Russian government would ever have had a report as damning as

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30401025

be published, or even, for that matter, instigate the investigation in the first place? I'm not saying that Western politicians are pure as the driven snow; there are always power-hungry amoralists trying to get their noses in the trough of influence. The culture and oversight, though, are so vastly different to that in the former SU that they almost don't compare. To the point that Russian nationalist thinkers assert that Russia can't work and doesn't need Western ideals of transparency and accountability (however flawed their implementations).

[Battlefront.com]

I feel like the U.S. government lies just as much as the Russian government. just throwing that out there

You made a statement that is akin to saying "I feel like the Moon has just as much of an atmosphere as Earth. just throwing that out there". This indicates that you know very little about the Russian government in general, but in particular about its control of information compared to the US. Not to say that the US doesn't have serious problems (it does), however in a comparison situation relative behaviors are what need to be focused on because *all* governments lie to some extent. Being an absolutist means lumping North Korea in with Denmark, and that's not very useful.

This is really not the forum to get involved in how deeply corrupt and autocratic the Russian government is compared to the US. But it at least deserves some response. Unfortunately, thanks to the Ukraine crisis, I'm more aware of topic than I need to be. So here's a few things to consider off the top of my head:

1. The anti-corruption organization Transparency International ranks Russia 136 out of 172 countries in the world in terms of perception of corruption (slightly beat out Uganda):

http://www.transparency.org/country/#RUS

2. Reporters Without Borders ranks Russia 148 in its World Press Freedom index:

http://rsf.org/index2014/en-eastern-europe.php

(note the US got knocked hard this year for it's policy of going after media that publishes National Security related issues and scandals like the unfolding CIA torture coverup)

3. A non-Ukrainian example of what the above two things lead was revived in the press this week. If a US Army Major found out that his troops were being fed relabeled cans of dog food, and he presented it to the media, what sort of coverage do you think it would get in the US press? What do you think would happen at the Congressional level in terms of hearings and other forms of investigation? Compare this expectation to what the actual events were when in 2011 a Russian Major uncovered this fact. What you will find is that this week he was sentenced to 4.5 years in prison after (apparently) exhausting his appeals:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14858858

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fzn.ua%2FWORLD%2Fza-semku-kormleniya-soldat-rf-sobachimi-konservami-mayora-osudili-na-4-5-goda-161368_.html

4. And finally... a more relevant, and certainly more entertaining example:

Top 75 Russian media lies about Ukraine. Now remember, these media outlets are either directly controlled and/or funded by the Russian government, or they are favored by the government while critical media is being shut down for various excuses. Which means what you see in this video is officially directed, or at least endorsed, by the government of the Russian Federation:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/12/09/top-75-fakes-of-false-russian-media-reports-about-ukraine-in-one-video/

As someone who watched events unfold on a daily basis, I can confirm that I personally saw the majority of what is in this video pushed by "anti-Maidan" groups and what has become known as Putinbots (people paid by the Russian government to post disinformation).

BTW, there are various jokes that if Russian media shows up in your town out of the blue in any numbers... run away... because you're about to be invaded by either "peace keepers" or "separatists". If you studied the Ukrainian crisis in as much detail as I have, you would find this hilarious

Steve

[MikeyD]

Hmmm... 'Putinbots'. I'm going to have to start using that phrase.

[Macisle]

...BTW, there are various jokes that if Russian media shows up in your town out of the blue in any numbers... run away... because you're about to be invaded by either "peace keepers" or "separatists". If you studied the Ukrainian crisis in as much detail as I have, you would find this hilarious

-Totally agree on the US vs. Russian government comparison. On the last bit though, I'd add:

If the US media suddenly shows up out of the blue in any numbers and you're a business owner--make sure your insurance is up to date.

[sburke]

-Totally agree on the US vs. Russian government comparison. On the last bit though, I'd add:

If the US media suddenly shows up out of the blue in any numbers and you're a business owner--make sure your insurance is up to date.

And all your employees have valid immigrant status.

[Battlefront.com]

-Totally agree on the US vs. Russian government comparison.

One of the things that the Russian government has done, very deliberately, over many years is to make things appear all black and white. When the Russian government gets caught doing something bad it says "well, it's no different than what the US does". Sometimes there is a grain of truth in that, but the conclusions are off base. The link I gave to the Russian media distortion of reality in their reporting on Ukraine talks a bit about the psychology behind Russian propaganda. Which, itself, is a continuation of Soviet propaganda techniques.

On the last bit though, I'd add:

If the US media suddenly shows up out of the blue in any numbers and you're a business owner--make sure your insurance is up to date.

Especially if they are wearing wet weather gear and driving white vans with names like "Channel 7 Storm Watch" on the side

As a side note, a couple of days ago I was re-reading a detailed account of activities ahead of the Georgian war of 2008. On August 3rd it was noted:

During the day, Russian newspaper reporters and TV crews began to arrive massively to Tskhinvali. The mobilization of Russian journalists on the territory of South Ossetia continued for the next several days (see annex 28 for the list of journalists and links to their testimonies, as well as an interesting article from RFE/RL).

The war started a 4 days later with Georgian shelling Tskhinvali.

Steve

[Macisle]

Or, to put it another way, the Russian media is often a tool of the state.

And the US media...is often a tool.