The Flow of Battle

[AttorneyAtWar]

In recent Combat Mission settings the flow of battle (from the attackers POV) would go something like this.

1. Position units

2. Deploy scouts and reconaissance vehicles to find the enemy

3. Using the information from the scouts units would be deployed to engage them

4. If scout units have the capability for air and artillery strikes they would begin to soften up the enemy

5. Finally the assault would be carried out with what ever assets they have (Armor, infantry etc.)

This is all nice and dandy, but the modern battlefield is hyper lethal and has many more toys at its disposal. I am going to lay out what I think will happen on the modern battlefield with two relatively equal modern opponents (Aka Russia and America obviously;))

1. Deploy UAV's and a few forward air controllers/Artillery observers

2 UAV's attempt to find enemy but may be shot down, or in this case can actually fire immediately on spotted enemies. Artillery fire can also be coordinated tihs way, making it much easier than the before times

3. After all spotted enemy units have been neutralized armor and mechanized infantry (if available) maneuvers to destroy whats left.

This is all nice and dandy too until you realize how many factors have now been added to it! Thermal sights make spotting scouts much easier so having eyes on will become increasingly difficult, AA units can destroy UAV's and deny air support. Without those two things devleoping the situation on the battlefield becomes increasingly difficult, making moving units in relatively large groups necessary to respond to even the smallest threat that can even though small wreak havoc on your forces, enemy artillery and air strikes are much faster to call in and much more devastating.

That is just an idea I had of the developing battlefield in CMBS, how do you guys think this stuff factors in and changes everything?

:eek:?

[dan/california]

First and foremost I think that mistakes are going to be punished. One bad turn, one misunderstood line of sight, one misjudgment about how long a position can be occupied and an entire mech platoon or equivalent will be smoking wreckage.

[Spitzenhund]

Your first 5 points are right, but that's if you don't expect anything and aren't under a time constraint. In CMSF I found myself many times rushing up with Marders while using smoke rounds from my artillery to cover their approach. If you sit around and scout about your much more likely to have artillery drop on your head or have enemy reinforcements that come from a rather unfortunate angle. This is all probably going to be increased with what you said about the UAV's. Now that you don't have to have direct eyes on your opponent, you are going to have to be a great deal more spontaneous and move a great deal faster. Basically i'm assuming the Defending force is going to be much more aggressive than in other titles. But this all goes up to the mission designer.

[Mord]

I'd prepare for a ton of b*tching from all the guys that used to say that Syria was such a push-over in CMSF. Now, they'll all be b*tching about how horrible balanced forces are. LOL.

@Dan; I agree. I've said many times back in CMSF that mistakes are payed for in death. It'll probably be even worse in Black Sea.

But in the end, battles will go depending on how the scenario or PBEM is set up. There'll be choices to limit electronics and comms. When DC and I play each other we have a standing rule of no onboard arty because we feel like it throws the battle out of whack too easily. One good strike from the heavies can decimate the other guy to the point where it's no fun. So, we stick to man portable mortars to keep it interesting. Players will be able to do the same in CMBS—agree on certain restrictions or not—and designers will have the same options as to what to allow while building their scenario.

Mord.

[George MC]

You have to play fast in CMBS - by fast I mean co-ordinated and decisive action using maximum firepower. You dally about too long and chances are something spots your idle units and they are then subject to arty, helos or UAV attack.

Took me a wee while to get used to it. Oh and pretty much when you spot something best hope your guys get the first shot off! It does make for very exciting game play though

There are electronic warfare options which can and do tone do any high tech comms/spotting advanatges. I think players playing PBEMs might go for that as each others high tec weapons and comms systems ability to function can be seriously degraded. All in all I've found it to be so different from anything I've played before in CM.

[DMS]

Everything is more intersting when radio is jammed. Will you send messengers with info to every tank and squad? Will it give significant advantage?

[LUCASWILLEN05]

An interesting debate.However, what happes if both sides have similar capabilities and technologies? In the two conventional wars with Iraq the West had technical domnance and better trained, more motivatedforces.

Here however we are talking about a well trained Russian army that may be approaching a degree of parity with NATO armies. In this case we might well see bloodier and more closely fought battles. Maybe there will be one side who wins a narrow victory as with the Yom Kippur War or maybe we will see a highly intensive phase for the first few months or even weeks followed by a 1914 style stalemate. Maybe not in trench warfare lke WW1 or Iran -Iraq but stalemate nonetheless with armies needing to be rebuilt from the mobilised citizenary of both sides and an extended war as both sides fight to gain e4xperience and initiative.

[ridethe415]

First and foremost I think that mistakes are going to be punished. One bad turn, one misunderstood line of sight, one misjudgment about how long a position can be occupied and an entire mech platoon or equivalent will be smoking wreckage.

I'm already experiencing this in BN and RT...I guess I can expect it to happen even faster now

[MikeyD]

Ukraine is a BIG country and the number of Abrams in Europe is not unlimited, plus US arrives only after events have been set in motion. That gives the player opportunities to do scenarios where the carnage hasn't been dialed up to max. You can ignore US entirely and simply play Ukraine vs Russia! If you think (imagine) Abrams might be too much of an uberweapon on the field don't play Abrams. Play T-64BV. If you think of this title as Ukraine vs Russia instead of US versus Russia the whole complexion of the title changes dramatically.

[c3k]

The uberists will be in for a surprise. Whereas I'm quite happy to take many, many, many casualties in my quest for victory (just ask my men), I freely admit to a ragequit or two during testing when the totality of my losses overwhelmed even me.

Mistakes equal death.

Bad luck equals death.

Attacking equals death.

But then victory is sweeter...

[AttorneyAtWar]

Ukraine is a BIG country and the number of Abrams in Europe is not unlimited, plus US arrives only after events have been set in motion. That gives the player opportunities to do scenarios where the carnage hasn't been dialed up to max. You can ignore US entirely and simply play Ukraine vs Russia! If you think (imagine) Abrams might be too much of an uberweapon on the field don't play Abrams. Play T-64BV. If you think of this title as Ukraine vs Russia instead of US versus Russia the whole complexion of the title changes dramatically.

Oh I definitely will be and I am looking forward to playing Ukraine, I just find the dynamic between Russia and the U.S. incredibly interesting as I am sure everyone else does! The dynamic of the battlefield from Red Thunder/Normandy even from Shock Force is incredibly fascinating, that's what I meant to focus on in the post. I wasn't necessarily alienating the Ukrainian faction, but having the "big" two going at it is interesting to talk about.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I freely admit to a ragequit or two during testing when the totality of my losses overwhelmed even me.

Mistakes equal death.

Bad luck equals death.

Attacking equals death.

Attempting to enter a house with bugged doors that won't let you in while under enemy fire... equals death

[sburke]

One item that is different is Infantry pack a much bigger punch. More than once I have had an MG team in good position with a demoralized battered enemy in front and WHAM out of nowhere one guy gets the nerve up to hit me with an rpg and there goes my MG. Infantry on Infantry fighting is a lot more lethal. Parked in a building with good LOF down that street thinking you got it covered.... Bam there goes the front of the building..

Gonna be interesting to fight an urban battle in this game.

Also just had an experience with friendly fire that was quite interesting. Enemy aircraft twice hit their own force and once at a critical moment in the battle. My forces were hunkered down trying to not become targets...it worked.

[db_zero]

I don't have much Shock Force experience, but from the little do have it seems like infantry vs infantry duels are very short and very bloody far more so that the WW2 ones in CM.

[George MC]

I don't have much Shock Force experience, but from the little do have it seems like infantry vs infantry duels are very short and very bloody far more so that the WW2 ones in CM.

So true. In one scenario I managed to lose a while section in a less than 20 seconds to a snipe team. My section bundled out of their BTR to run 50m+ across a road and into a three story building. However a concealed sniper team in the top floor clocked the section and opened up on them. There was a very small trail of red crosses across the street and leading to just before the door into the building. This happened before my overwatch could even ID where the shots were coming from.

Then trying to clean these guys out of their nest lost me more men as the team went to ground. I blasted it with my BTRs only to have em then pop up as I sent another team into the building thinking they were suppressed. They were but not for long...On the plus side I lost fewer guys this time.

[TacKLed]

It's interesting to see that firefights are shorter and more deadly. I think in recent years we have become accustomed to fighting irregular forces where casualties are high on their part and low on ours. Now with equal playing field we see that every thing is more deadly.

If any of you have been keenly watching anything out of eastern Ukraine like I have you will see this deadly combat playing out now. Albeit on a much, much smaller scale now. Just look at Illovaisk in August (300-1000+ dead in one month) and the First Battle of Donetsk Airport (around 50 killed in one day [apparently most by being exposed in the open as a Ukrainian hind found them]). Deadly ****

[DMS]

First Battle of Donetsk Airport (around 50 killed in one day [apparently most by being exposed in the open as a Ukrainian hind found them]). Deadly ****

Nope. Frienly fire at trucks with wounded.

[emccabe]

anyone know where i can get a manual or something to help me learn modern tactics so i amnot behind when black sea comes out

[sburke]

anyone know where i can get a manual or something to help me learn modern tactics so i amnot behind when black sea comes out

These guys not only have manuals, they'll even let you play with all the cool new real stuff.

http://www.goarmy.com/

[TacKLed]

Nope. Frienly fire at trucks with wounded.

Really? I read otherwise somewhere else. Source? I was on my iPad, so I couldn't extrapolate more. The story I heard was two trucks filled with wounded were driving down a street when an Ukrainian helicopter shot at them.

But then again I remember back in May they said like 400 separatists died in that battle. Soooo..... yeaaaaa lol.

anyone know where i can get a manual or something to help me learn modern tactics so i amnot behind when black sea comes out

Google the Ranger Handbook. Literally your one stop shop for modern infantry tactics. It's pretty small compared to the actual Platoon level and Company level infantry tactic field manuals the Army issues out. It's all free online though if you want to venture into the world of US Army tactics.

[db_zero]

These guys not only have manuals, they'll even let you play with all the cool new real stuff.

http://www.goarmy.com/

Not so fast there. You know how hard it is to get into the military these days? IIRC over 50% of those who would be eligible are not acceptable due to obesity, tatoos, past records or other disqualifying reasons.

Recruiters are turning away perfectly good candidates because they have so many to choose from. Its very difficult and competitive to join the military these days.

Not like the old days when you could just walk in and be on your way to boot camp in a few weeks.

[sburke]

These guys not only have manuals, they'll even let you play with all the cool new real stuff. http://www.goarmy.com/

<--- Joke.

Just in case.

Are you suggesting jerome2142 would flunk out? That is cold.

[dan/california]

These guys not only have manuals, they'll even let you play with all the cool new real stuff.

http://www.goarmy.com/

You will even get to break and splice tank tracks. They might throw you into the endless battle against hydraulic fluid and oil stains. The preferred weapon is a rag mark 1.

[DMS]

Really?

Who knows. A lot of versions. Rebels tried to do it "soft", like they did earlier, Crimean style, but Kiev wanted blood. There were rumors about Polish mercenaries.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Let's keep it on topic and out of discussion what happened or is happening in ukraine.

As a suggestion to prepare for what CMBS will be like: I'd say read as much as you can about modern vehicles, weapons, UAVs, artillery etc. and I mean the single assets.

Scroll the contents list, for example you see a BMP-3 with ARENA active protection system, Google that and see what's about it. This way you'll know what is such an asset when you see it in game.

As regarding the gameplay itself or the TO&E just wait for the game and see what's placed on the field for you, there will also be a traning campaign to test some new stuff for sure (UAV?). If you want to exercise a bit consider that CMSF while being old and less complex in terms of some simulation, can actually let you play T-90 vs M1A2 (although in CMBS will be a different thing), or infantry vs infantry with decently modern weapons. The infantry fights won't be much different in my opinion.