Non-Combatants

[MOS:96B2P]

I think it would add interest, realism and variety to the game if small numbers of non-combatants were available for scenarios. Non-combatants would be useful in all the CM titles however they are probably more applicable to the modern titles. It may be a good idea, for Battlefront’s public relations, to have all the non-combatants be portrayed as military aged males. Military aged males should also take less time and effort to model for the game. They could be pretty much what we already have but in civilian clothes with no weapons. For game mechanic purposes maybe they could be purchased as “units”. Small unit = 5 non-combatants, Medium unit = 10 non-combatants, Large unit = 20 non-combatants. Or something along those lines.

In various scenarios these non-combatants could portray embassy / consulate personnel, civilian contractors, local inhabitants, prisoners of war, hostages etc. From these non-combatant units various rescue / collateral damage type missions could be developed.

Scenario designers would understand better than I how to make them work in any given mission. But here are some ideas: Possibly the non-combatant units could be assigned an exit zone for their side to gain points in the scenario. So the idea would be to go get them and bring them out safely. The more brought safely to the exit zone the more victory points. Possibly the opposing side would be penalized if the non-combatants were killed. The idea being they are worth more alive for propaganda purposes than dead. Something like this would be necessary to keep the AI or your PBEM opponent from intentionally trying to destroy them and ending the mission to soon. The non-combatants could also just be present on the battlefield in houses, hospitals etc. Any collateral damage to these non-combatant units would penalize the force that caused their destruction. The scenario designers and programmers would have a better idea how / if this is possible.

If this could be made to work the following are some of the cool mission scenarios that might be possible:

A platoon of Marines and 20 non-combatants are under siege at an embassy. Your mission is to go get them, load them onto your Strykers (or whatever you have for transport) and move them to the exit zone.

You are conducting operations in a MOUT environment. Non-combatants are present. The OPFOR has some crew served weapons set up in action squares adjacent to non-combatant occupied buildings. Clear the OPFOR without destroying the non-combatant units.

Your Platoon is tasked with providing transport / security for a friendly militia leader and his entourage as they travel to a meeting with your division commander. (Good luck with that)

A hostile force is overrunning a city. The last group of allied non-combatants is waiting evacuation at the airfield. The airspace is no longer safe for transport aircraft. Your mission is to reach the airfield before the hostile forces and evacuate the noncombatants over the last open road connecting the city.

You are tasked with capturing a high value target and his four advisors and bringing them safely back to the Forward Operating Base for interrogation.

A friendly research vessel was seized and the crew taken prisoner. It is believed the crew is held in a compound in a hostile port. Find, secure and evacuate the crew. OPFOR reinforcements are 20 minutes away from the compound.

For any Combat Mission game but especially the WWII titles: Free the POWs and bring them back to friendly lines.

CMFI free Mussolini from the Allies. (And actually have a unit that must be moved / protected from harm etc.)

I’m sure smarter people than I could come up with even better scenarios reflecting actual RL situations.

With the addition of non-combatants and the already present map editor the scenario designers / moders could add even more complex, thorough missions to a great battlefield simulation. Especially in the modern area the inclusion of non-combatants and the role they play (willing or not) makes for a more comprehensive simulation. After all, it is a situation RL battlefield commanders and others wishing to simulate and learn the lessons of the complex modern battlefield (ROEs and such) must deal with.

Did I mention, I think it would be a fun element to add non-combatants. (As long as they are portrayed as military aged males. No women or children please).

[Holman]

CMSF modeled civilians abstractly with a scenario setting that penalized the Blue player for destruction of buildings. It was possible to eliminate all enemy units but still lose the scenario if you caused indiscriminate damage to inhabited areas. IIRC, this setting was a variable with a range of values, so that designers could model densely populated civilian areas vs lighter or mostly evacuated ones.

It worked well in making the Western player pick his targets with care, and it gave the Red player the ability to hide effectively inside and near buildings. The U.S. couldn't just flatten the village with artillery like we all do in WW2.

I assume we'll see a return of this feature in CMBS.

[sburke]

Beyond their own aversion to having non combatants BF has also commented that they don't want to have to deal with tac AI concerns.

In CMSF you might be able to do something like this with the spy units.

[agusto]

CMSF modeled civilians abstractly with a scenario setting that penalized the Blue player for destruction of buildings. It was possible to eliminate all enemy units but still lose the scenario if you caused indiscriminate damage to inhabited areas. IIRC, this setting was a variable with a range of values, so that designers could model densely populated civilian areas vs lighter or mostly evacuated ones.

It worked well in making the Western player pick his targets with care, and it gave the Red player the ability to hide effectively inside and near buildings. The U.S. couldn't just flatten the village with artillery like we all do in WW2.

I assume we'll see a return of this feature in CMBS.

IIRC the scenario designer has to designate specific areas as 'inhabited' or 'protected' (dont know what to call it). Only buildings in these areas will count as negative points if the player that has to protect them destroys them.

[sburke]

IIRC the scenario designer has to designate specific areas as 'inhabited' or 'protected' (dont know what to call it). Only buildings in these areas will count as negative points if the player that has to protect them destroys them.

Yeah the civilian factor was for spotting. Uncon forces were harder to spot the higher you drove up the civilian density. The building setting was a preserve option.

[Sergei]

What about nun combatants?

[Combatintman]

In CMSF, as sburke said, spy units will cover off on most of the scenarios you describe - designate them as blue and assign them as high point value 'destroy' unit objectives for the red player. The only thing you have to balance is to make sure that it is not massively easy for red to get at them and keep them out of red LOS at mission start.

[MOS:96B2P]

In CMSF, as sburke said, spy units will cover off on most of the scenarios you describe - designate them as blue and assign them as high point value 'destroy' unit objectives for the red player. The only thing you have to balance is to make sure that it is not massively easy for red to get at them and keep them out of red LOS at mission start.

Thanks Combatintman. This might be a kind of work around. I will give it a try. I have worked in the editor to make and modify maps and create simple scenarios. However I don't know how to make units change sides. If that is what you mean by designating a spy unit as blue? I think I can do the rest of what you described. Is it a simple thing for you to explain or should I try to find it in the game manual or search the forum? Thanks again.

[Combatintman]

Easy - set the mission as either Blue v Blue or Red v Red - this will allow you to select units from the 'other side' in the force selection menu - once you've force picked the units (in this case spies) go back and change it to Blue v Red.

As an example - I want a US Light Infantry Battalion to rescue some hostages against a Red insurgent force. I set the mission as Blue v Red and pick my US Light Infantry Battalion. I then go back from the force selection screen and set the mission as Red v Red and this will then allow me to go back to what was formerly 'Blue' and pick spies. I force pick the spies and then go back and reset the mission as Blue v Red. I can then pick my red force as normal.

[MOS:96B2P]

Thanks Combatintman! That idea of using the red force spies and switching them to be blue non-combatants worked!

I still hope someday BF will address the non-combatant issue in a more comprehensive, intentional way. I’m guessing they never foresaw / intended for shrewd players of the game like yourself, Sburke and others to think of: "switching the spy to non-combatant trick". This spy switching trick combined with the preserve order for buildings will allow most of the scenarios I was hoping for. Of course this only works with the CMSF title but it is better than nothing. This leads to another question that I thought somebody else asked but I don’t remember if an answer was given. Does anybody know if there will be a blue on blue and red on red option in the Black Sea scenario editor?

As a side note: I started to read the book Company Commander by Major Russell Lewis in preparation for downloading your scenario Into the Green. I hope to get enough insight from the book to be able to do a good job in the scenario the first time through with no re-starts allowed. (We will see how that works out)

[LUCASWILLEN05]

You can have armed civilian/partisan types on both sides however but unarmed civilians would demand a lot more from the software. There were cases of unarmed civilians obstructing Ukrainian army convoys. Maybe however this is better abstracted and might not be a huge issue on te actual battlefield anyway

[GAZ NZ]

What would be interesting is armed patisans popping up under ai control in houses etc.

Would make battles even more unpredictible.

They could attack either side based on certain conditions being met.

[Wicky]

Possibility of a concept for gloomy non-combatant module...

http://www.wired.com/2014/11/this-war-of-mine/

[MOS:96B2P]

Thanks Combatintman! That idea of using the red force spies and switching them to be blue non-combatants worked! I still hope someday BF will address the non-combatant issue and include them, down the road, in CMBS. For now this only works with the CMSF title but it is better than nothing.

I took a few screenshots of what I was able to do with the tips from Combatintman. I posted the screenshots over in the CMSF area since they were created with CMSF. Hoping someday we will also be able to do something even better with CMBS and post in this site.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1566180&postcount=1

[MOS:96B2P]

Here is a link to the actual thread at CMSF. In my previous post I should have linked the entire thread. Not just my screen shots.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=117744

[Gumshoe]

Looks good. Let me know when you finish the scenario and have it posted in the repository. I want to try and outshine Hillary on evacuating those noncombatants.

[db_zero]

Non combatants would be a very welcome addition. As for AI concerns why not add some random number generator routine that scatters them in all directions in panic, makes them go prone and cower or run to cover?

Police, ambulances, journalists could also add a lot of atmosphere.

Aside from the additional work that would go into this, sounds like BF may want to avoid any controversy that may arise. Nothing really new with civies. Anyone remember the 90s game Syndicate when it first came out? These days you have Grand Theft Auto so anything BF did would be tame compared to whats out there.

I don't play COD or ARMA, but do they have non combatants?

Perhaps BF might consider a limited software developer kit download so some of the more creative types out there could come up with things like civies, burning buildings and other stuff.

[Stagler]

ARMA series has combatants. The AI makes them flee or react accordingly to threats as well.

[Stagler]

Also, lol at COD and ARMA in the same sentence.

[MOS:96B2P]

Just a follow up. I am not proposing Battlefront visually represent all non-combatants. The abstract handling of them in the editor through the civilian density setting: None, sparse, light, moderate, heavy, very heavy works fine for most purposes.

What I am proposing is not very much different than what is already in the game. A single soldier in civilian clothing and no weapon as a choice in the editor and now you have a non-combatant. Select one non-combatant for a Mussolini scenario in CMFI, or 20 for a POW rescue in CMBN, or 10 for a consulate evacuation in CMSF. Or whatever the imagination of scenario designers and moders can think of.

I have a scenario I am working on in CMSF (using the spy trick to get non-combatants) involving the relief of a besieged consulate. I set most of the 10 non-combatants soft factors to unfit conscripts. So while Marines and Stryker infantry are attempting to load them into Strykers and get them out of dodge they cower and go to the fetal position when an RPG round explodes. I’m just saying this is a cool type mission to be able to create in the scenario editor and down the road I hope CMBS will include non-combatants allowing this type of scenario. And with the help of moders can you picture the SAS, GSG9, SEALS etc. going on some cool missions?

Below is a link to the consulate rescue thread that contains screen shots of the spy/non-combatants.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=117744